Moyes should go/Moyes should stay

[pete0]

He's said top half would be a struggle from the start of the season. Easy to paint over his lack of ambition/faith at the end of the season.

[SimonButtle]

He said a top half finish would be a reasonable success, but he also said that we wouldn't particularly be celebrating finishing 7th, because, aside from pride, there's no difference between finishing 7th and 17th, unless 7th gets you into Europe but even then, Europa League isn't really a massive deal these days.

 

At the start of the season, having lost Arteta, and having brought in no new talent, I wouldn't have said 7th is the minimum we can expect. I also wouldn't say our squad is even close to the likes of Arsenal, Spurs or Liverpool. Van Persie, Arteta, Vermaelen, Van Der Vaart, Bale, Suarez, Gerrard, yeah they're only 2 or 3 players from each squad that are especially better than our players but they do make a big difference.

 

However, with the squad we have for next season, IF we sign Pienaar and IF we keep our other key players and Fergie keeps his greasy bacon hands off Baines, there's no excuse to finish below any of the nothing teams like Villa, Sunderland, Stoke or Fulham. At the same time though I still think we're one or two quality players away from challenging the top 5/6 on a consistent basis. Newcastle managed it this year but an absolutely massive part of that was Ba and Cisse. We were in for Ba until we couldn't pay his wages weren't we? That's a classic example of how Moyes is held back. It also remains to be seen if Newcastle have really made that step up with relatively little investment (still more than us), or whether it was a one-off season where they got a bit of luck and were able to take advantage of the worst Arsenal, Chelsea and Liverpool sides we've seen for years.

Well Newcastle have done things the way that i think we should do to clear our debt, they sold off their big stars, spent a year in the championship, got the parachute payments, came back with a good scouting network and have done it all on small budget. I would have no issues with us doing that, although going down is not ideal of course, but i would rather clear the debt and start over again, as it does'nt look like we will ever get any kind of investment.

[c1982]

Spurs attacking options up to dec... Defoe, adebayor, pav, dos santos, bale, Lennon, van Der vaart, Modric, krancjaer, pienaar... have I missed anyone?! We're much better than that shite!!!

[marcopaulo]

Well Newcastle have done things the way that i think we should do to clear our debt, they sold off their big stars, spent a year in the championship, got the parachute payments, came back with a good scouting network and have done it all on small budget. I would have no issues with us doing that, although going down is not ideal of course, but i would rather clear the debt and start over again, as it does'nt look like we will ever get any kind of investment.

 

what if we couldn't get back up? i see what you're sayin but personally i'd fuckin furious if we sold our big stars and got relegated

[SimonButtle]

what if we couldn't get back up? i see what you're sayin but personally i'd fuckin furious if we sold our big stars and got relegated

thats a test of the players mentality, good scouting and managerial nous, i think we would come back up pretty easy, but i know what you mean, i for one think that Blackburn will struggle to come back up.

[marcopaulo]

out of interest what do you base the pretty easy bit on? if we sold our best players fuck knows what kinda squad we'd end up with

[SimonButtle]

out of interest what do you base the pretty easy bit on? if we sold our best players fuck knows what kinda squad we'd end up with

We have some good youngsters, Moyes has a good record in the market, i reckon we could get a team together capable of getting us back up again, the Osmans, and Hibberts bleed blue blood and would stay, as would Howard, i would look to sell Barkley,FellainiRodwell,Baines,Heitinga,Jagielka, there has got to be at least £80m there, and what our debts are £40-50m? also there would be parachute payments from going down on top of that, EFC in the championship would finally get a lot of TV coverage as well.

 

Please Note: I don't actually want to do this, its just a possible option that crosses my mind every now and again

Edited May 16, 2012 by theprisoner

[MikeO]

...aside from pride, there's no difference between finishing 7th and 17th...

 

Aside from pride and £7.5m.

[pete0]

Spurs attacking options up to dec... Defoe, adebayor, pav, dos santos, bale, Lennon, van Der vaart, Modric, krancjaer, pienaar... have I missed anyone?! We're much better than that shite!!!

Half them were hardly used. Lennon is very hit and miss, Bale is a motd warrior (Coleman in disguise), VDV struggled this season, only player who excelled is Modric. Spurs are dreadful when they play teams with quality or a manager who knows what they're doing.

Top 7 league only, they would be joint bottom with Newcastle. Top 7 excluding Newcastle they would be bottom.

Edited May 16, 2012 by pete0

[SimonButtle]

Half them were hardly used. Lennon is very hit and miss, Bale is a motd warrior (Coleman in disguise), VDV struggled this season, only player who excelled is Modric. Spurs are dreadful when they play teams with quality or a manager who knows what they're doing.

Even then he would'nt know where the goal was even if you gave him directions, good player but never worth £40m

[c1982]

Half them were hardly used. Lennon is very hit and miss, Bale is a motd warrior (Coleman in disguise), VDV struggled this season, only player who excelled is Modric. Spurs are dreadful when they play teams with quality or a manager who knows what they're doing.

 

You are on the wind-up! Phew!!!

[pete0]

You are on the wind-up! Phew!!!

How? They could have played us till sunrise at Goodison and still wouldnt of created a goal.

[c1982]

How? They could have played us till sunrise at Goodison and still wouldnt of created a goal.

 

You're judging the team who were looking title contenders up to around that point where Harry got linked with England on one performance in their poor patch of the season.

[marcopaulo]

modric has excelled? he is nowhere near as good as he was last season

[pete0]

You're judging the team who were looking title contenders up to around that point where Harry got linked with England on one performance in their poor patch of the season.

Maybe you missed this when I edited my post. Top 7 league only, they would be joint bottom with Newcastle. Top 7 excluding Newcastle they would be bottom. They're not good enough to beat the big boys, only high in the league because they pick up points from the poorer sides.

modric has excelled? he is nowhere near as good as he was last season

It's been his most productive goal and assists wise.

[Quinn31]

Maybe you missed this when I edited my post. Top 7 league only, they would be joint bottom with Newcastle. Top 7 excluding Newcastle they would be bottom. They're not good enough to beat the big boys, only high in the league because they pick up points from the poorer sides.

 

It's been his most productive goal and assists wise.

How come Spurs can manage to beat the Wigan's of this world and then get their asses handed to them by the Man U's and Chelsea's while we seem to love to upset the big boys but then manage draws against Aston VIlla and Wigan and friends.... So Frustrating.

[pete0]

How come Spurs can manage to beat the Wigan's of this world and then get their asses handed to them by the Man U's and Chelsea's while we seem to love to upset the big boys but then manage draws against Aston VIlla and Wigan and friends.... So Frustrating.

words don't describe there phenomenal tizer kitted luck when they play us.

[marcus jones]

How come Spurs can manage to beat the Wigan's of this world and then get their asses handed to them by the Man U's and Chelsea's while we seem to love to upset the big boys but then manage draws against Aston VIlla and Wigan and friends.... So Frustrating.

Because it's tactically harder to set a team up to attack rather than defend.

[c1982]

I'd imagine there's only 1 win or so between 7th and say 4th - the real league is made up of 20 teams over 38 games each... Spurs finished 4th and were unlucky not to have finished 3rd. Well done to them - they deserve the champions league spot but I hope Chelsea nick it!

[pete0]

I'd imagine there's only 1 win or so between 7th and say 4th - the real league is made up of 20 teams over 38 games each... Spurs finished 4th and were unlucky not to have finished 3rd. Well done to them - they deserve the champions league spot but I hope Chelsea nick it!

Beating the lower teams should be the bread and butter (looking at Moyes!) of the higher teams, and then how the top teams perform against each other making the real difference. I'd rather Chelsea play in the Champs league as they're better equipped against Europe's best.

[c1982]

Beating the lower teams should be the bread and butter (looking at Moyes!) of the higher teams, and then how the top teams perform against each other making the real difference. I'd rather Chelsea play in the Champs league as they're better equipped against Europe's best.

 

But when these 'lower' teams are outspending and beating you to targets and strengthening when we're losing players/ consolidating then where does that place us?! Let's judge Moyes when he's had money to spend and not just replacing sold players.

[pete0]

But when these 'lower' teams are outspending and beating you to targets and strengthening when we're losing players/ consolidating then where does that place us?! Let's judge Moyes when he's had money to spend and not just replacing sold players.

It's not his players that aren't good enough it's his tactics. He tends to go more for the Mourinho approach of strict instructions - opposed to the other end of the spectrum Harry just go out and play Redknapp. For me the Mourinho approach is only good for staying up, unless you have the millions to waste finding players good enough to adapt to your system. Moyes needs to loosen up and find a system that works for the players he has, rather than the square holes he tends to stick to.

[c1982]

Moyes plays better football when he's able to strengthen us...

Like that summer he bought Johnson, Lescott and Howard, and we went on to finish 6th.

Or the next summer, when he bought Yakubu, Baines and Jagielka, and we want on to finish 5th and break the club record of consecutive European wins.

 

Let him add to what we've got - pienaar for starters and we'll play better football. Some people were raving about bolton's style under coyle, blackpool's under holloway - for all Swansea/Norwich did well they had some shockers too... Moyes knows how to get results - it's not always pretty and doesn't always work but it's bloody effective when judged over a 38 game season.

 

Finally, are we ignoring some of the excellent football we've played since strengthening in January?

 

[marcus jones]

As I always point out, there are two types of coaches, ''Drills coaches'' instruct players to play a tactical, progressive, don't give the ball away, systematic game ie. Mourinhio, Moyes, Capello and Tony Pullis( don't laugh!) Where as the other side of the coin are ''Expansive coaches'' Pep, Fergie, Rijkard, Van Marwjick, Low, Wenger etc....... Coaches who trust players to make decisions based on field position and personal awareness of space and attacking instinct to force their philosophy on the game and opponents, which, may I would dearly like to add, side of the fence are people on here standing?

[pete0]

As I always point out, there are two types of coaches, ''Drills coaches'' instruct players to play a tactical, progressive, don't give the ball away, systematic game ie. Mourinhio, Moyes, Capello and Tony Pullis( don't laugh!) Where as the other side of the coin are ''Expansive coaches'' Pep, Fergie, Rijkard, Van Marwjick, Low, Wenger etc....... Coaches who trust players to make decisions based on field position and personal awareness of space and attacking instinct to force their philosophy on the game and opponents, which, may I would dearly like to add, side of the fence are people on here standing?

I'd say Fergie has the right balance for most games. Still no ones perfect.

 

Moyes plays better football when he's able to strengthen us...

Like that summer he bought Johnson, Lescott and Howard, and we went on to finish 6th.

Or the next summer, when he bought Yakubu, Baines and Jagielka, and we want on to finish 5th and break the club record of consecutive European wins.

 

Finally, are we ignoring some of the excellent football we've played since strengthening in January?

Moyes' best season come from selling Rooney, 17th to 4th. He was allowed to strengthen with the money, but selling to stregthen the wages atm, as back then we had half the wage budget of Spurs and Newcastle.

He played better football last year after xmas and that was with losing Pienaar and not strengthening as well as more injuries than this season.

Edited May 16, 2012 by pete0

[c1982]

Moyes' best season come from selling Rooney, 17th to 4th. He was allowed to strengthen with the money, but selling to stregthen the wages atm, as back then we had half the wage budget of Spurs and Newcastle.

He played better football last year after xmas and that was with losing Pienaar and not strengthening as well as more injuries than this season.

 

The '4th' season was built on a solid defence and not too much pretty football - this what you're now moaning at Moyes for doing!

[Matt]

cant believe this thread is still active....

[Bailey]

We're going round in circles because every time we sign a Fellaini or a Jelavic, we either have to sell a Lescott or an Arteta to feed the banks or we lose a Cahill or a Distin to age.

 

Arsene Wenger's a stubborn, one dimensional bastard too. The difference is, he's a stubborn, one dimensional bastard with the stadium and the budget to attract class players to his side more than once every two seasons.

 

Moyes has his faults, so does every manager. If you want to sack a manager who has faults (as the thread title suggests) then the chairmen may as well get down there in the dugout and do it himself. You need to take the bad with the good, and with Moyes I think the overall package is worthwhile. If he can iron out his flaws, then even better.

 

If we can keep the current squad together, keep Baines, Heitinga, Fellaini, even Jags, and Moyes can save up enough pocket money to bring Pienaar back, there will be absolutely no excuse to start last season like we did this one. All we need is a replacement for Cahill and some actual cover at left back and I see no reason why we can't compete for the top 6 or perhaps even better over the next few years. The only problem is then though that we'll have to be spending money over the next two or three seasons to replace Distin, Neville, Osman, Pienaar, Hibbert due to their age, and any players like Fellaini who may get tempted away from the club.

 

Good post and I certainly wouldnt disagree with what you say.

 

At the start of the season, having lost Arteta, and having brought in no new talent, I wouldn't have said 7th is the minimum we can expect. I also wouldn't say our squad is even close to the likes of Arsenal, Spurs or Liverpool. Van Persie, Arteta, Vermaelen, Van Der Vaart, Bale, Suarez, Gerrard, yeah they're only 2 or 3 players from each squad that are especially better than our players but they do make a big difference.

 

However, with the squad we have for next season, IF we sign Pienaar and IF we keep our other key players and Fergie keeps his greasy bacon hands off Baines, there's no excuse to finish below any of the nothing teams like Villa, Sunderland, Stoke or Fulham. At the same time though I still think we're one or two quality players away from challenging the top 5/6 on a consistent basis. Newcastle managed it this year but an absolutely massive part of that was Ba and Cisse. We were in for Ba until we couldn't pay his wages weren't we? That's a classic example of how Moyes is held back. It also remains to be seen if Newcastle have really made that step up with relatively little investment (still more than us), or whether it was a one-off season where they got a bit of luck and were able to take advantage of the worst Arsenal, Chelsea and Liverpool sides we've seen for years.

 

I must admit I am looking back on the season in reflection and looking at how these 'top' teams and their 'star' players performed, and if you take didnt know they were Man Utd or you didnt know it was Walcott, Nani, Ferdinand etc then judging on their performances this season you wouldnt realise they were supposedly some of the best players in the league. I look at how bad we started, not just because of the players, but how awfully we defended, how little enthusiasm the players & the manager showed at times and think that this could have been a big season. There are a lot of other fans from other teams who can probably say the same thing!

 

For the record though if you amalgamated ours & Arsenals squad then I would only look at RVP, Vermaelen & Oxlade Chamberlain getting in it ahead of our players (maybe be Sagna but he has been crocked again and barely played this season). Wilshere is another, but he has to come back too.

 

It's not his players that aren't good enough it's his tactics. He tends to go more for the Mourinho approach of strict instructions - opposed to the other end of the spectrum Harry just go out and play Redknapp. For me the Mourinho approach is only good for staying up, unless you have the millions to waste finding players good enough to adapt to your system. Moyes needs to loosen up and find a system that works for the players he has, rather than the square holes he tends to stick to.

 

I wouldnt ever compare Mourinho & Moyes. I suppose he is more like Mourinho than Redknapp but IMO Mourinho is by far the best manager in the world simply by the way he sets his team out to beat the other team and exploit their weaknesses. Mourinho is bold and adapts constantly, which is probably by main criticism of Moyes because he simply doesnt.

[StevO]

too slow matt

 

I can live with being slow, i still sat laughing to myself.

[pete0]

Good post and I certainly wouldnt disagree with what you say.

 

 

 

I must admit I am looking back on the season in reflection and looking at how these 'top' teams and their 'star' players performed, and if you take didnt know they were Man Utd or you didnt know it was Walcott, Nani, Ferdinand etc then judging on their performances this season you wouldnt realise they were supposedly some of the best players in the league. I look at how bad we started, not just because of the players, but how awfully we defended, how little enthusiasm the players & the manager showed at times and think that this could have been a big season. There are a lot of other fans from other teams who can probably say the same thing!

 

For the record though if you amalgamated ours & Arsenals squad then I would only look at RVP, Vermaelen & Oxlade Chamberlain getting in it ahead of our players (maybe be Sagna but he has been crocked again and barely played this season). Wilshere is another, but he has to come back too.

 

 

 

I wouldnt ever compare Mourinho & Moyes. I suppose he is more like Mourinho than Redknapp but IMO Mourinho is by far the best manager in the world simply by the way he sets his team out to beat the other team and exploit their weaknesses. Mourinho is bold and adapts constantly, which is probably by main criticism of Moyes because he simply doesnt.

Theres a few on here who probs think Moyes is better. He's miles behind him tactically, I was more leaning towards favouring defensive tactics and overloading players with instructions. Like for like he's probs more similar to Mancini.