dunlopp9987 Posted February 8, 2022 Report Share Posted February 8, 2022 2 hours ago, Chach said: To the original point, this is a framing that doesn't actually hold up to any scrutiny. The evidence of racially motivated killings by the police in the US is rare as hens teeth yet you could be convinced that black people were being hunted in the streets from the way it is covered. African Americans are disproportionately represented but are still far less by number because of demographics, what all the people shot have in common is they are almost always armed and threatening police. There's a data base on the WaPo that records all the data that funnily enough was started after the Michael Brown shooting, an incident where a majority of people still believe that he had his hands in the air saying "don't shoot" when he was shot because that was the way it was covered. And did you see the data on the WaPo that says despite Black people making up just 13% of the population, they are killed by police at more than twice the rate of white people? And to your point about "all the people shot have in common is they are almost always armed and threatening police", why don't we talk about Eric Garner? Or Sandra Bland. Or Philando Castile. Or Tony Robinson. Or Walter Scott. Or Freddie Gray. Or Botham Jean. Or Breonna Taylor. Or Elijah McClain. Or George Floyd. Or Amir Locke. Black people have been hunted in the streets for the last 400 years in this country (and continue to be, see Trayvon Martin and Ahmaud Arbery), ever since they were brought here against their will. The modern police force was born out of slave catching patrols. And I usually don't like to use this argument, but in this case it seems relevant. I see you're in Australia. Are you an American living there? Have you spent a significant amount of time living here in the US, particularly with any Black friends who you might have had conversations with regarding this topic? If not, you can't ever understand. I too will never understand what it's like to live in this country as a Black person. But I can open my ears and my heart and listen to the very real fears that my friends have when they are in a convenience store and being watched by the clerk, or walking on the street with an officer nearby, or dealing with a multitude of microaggressions in a work environment that is 90% white. Being Black in this country is a struggle I will never understand, but I can read and watch and listen and learn, and hope that we can eventually live in not a post-racial society, but an anti-racist society. Palfy, Sibdane and MikeO 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Palfy Posted February 8, 2022 Report Share Posted February 8, 2022 2 hours ago, Chach said: You've misread the posts, I was referring to the discussion and Palfy's claim that because I am drawing a comparison between the behaviour of the GOP and Democrat politicians that I must be a secret Nazi rather than someone who is simply interested in the truth of opinions. I never called you a Nazi or said anything that should have given you reasons to believe I was referring to you as a Nazi, are you now indulging yourself in the fake reporting you was so critical of in your first post. If anything I find you guilty of the new phenomenon called Trumpism. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sibdane Posted February 8, 2022 Report Share Posted February 8, 2022 6 minutes ago, Palfy said: I never called you a Nazi or said anything that should have given you reasons to believe I was referring to you as a Nazi, are you now indulging yourself in the fake reporting you was so critical of in your first post. If anything I find you guilty of the new phenomenon called Trumpism. Ignore him, Palf. He's a grammar Nazi, if anything. If a person has to resort to correcting grammar/spelling rather than continuing to engage then that person has already lost the argument. He knew what you were getting at, and it was just a way for him to act/feel superior. Palfy 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Palfy Posted February 8, 2022 Report Share Posted February 8, 2022 8 minutes ago, Sibdane said: Ignore him, Palf. He's a grammar Nazi, if anything. If you have to resort to correcting grammar rather than continuing to engage then you've already lost the argument. He knew what you were getting at, and it was just a way for him to act superior. Cheers mate, I wasn’t going to reply to him anymore but when he fragrantly lied about what I had said to Steve I felt compelled to put the record straight Sibdane 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cornish Steve Posted February 9, 2022 Report Share Posted February 9, 2022 On 07/02/2022 at 04:06, Chach said: Showing up January 6 to listen to an address, hold up a sign and demonstrate your dissatisfaction with an election outcome is legitimate political discourse, not everybody marched and stormed the capitol. Mitch McConnell, Republican leader in the Senate, just gave his explanation of those events: "It was a violent insurrection for the purpose of trying to prevent the peaceful transfer of power after a legitimately certified election from one administration to the next. That's what it was." Palfy and Matt 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sibdane Posted February 9, 2022 Report Share Posted February 9, 2022 4 hours ago, Cornish Steve said: Mitch McConnell, Republican leader in the Senate, just gave his explanation of those events: "It was a violent insurrection for the purpose of trying to prevent the peaceful transfer of power after a legitimately certified election from one administration to the next. That's what it was." McConnell is right. Credit where it is due… Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chach Posted February 9, 2022 Report Share Posted February 9, 2022 7 hours ago, Cornish Steve said: Mitch McConnell, Republican leader in the Senate, just gave his explanation of those events: "It was a violent insurrection for the purpose of trying to prevent the peaceful transfer of power after a legitimately certified election from one administration to the next. That's what it was." I am really not understanding why this is hard to comprehend Steve, read the actual words in the post you are replying to, there is no mention of overpowering security and storming a building, there is a distinction between the two groups that is important. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chach Posted February 9, 2022 Report Share Posted February 9, 2022 18 hours ago, Sibdane said: Ignore him, Palf. He's a grammar Nazi, if anything. If a person has to resort to correcting grammar/spelling rather than continuing to engage then that person has already lost the argument. He knew what you were getting at, and it was just a way for him to act/feel superior. Nothing to do with grammar or spelling, I don't respond because he is not responding to the point I am making and I have been down those rabbit holes with Palfy too many times, they are not productive and neither of us get anything out of it. I am not interested in debate on the internet, I am only interested in dialectic. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Palfy Posted February 9, 2022 Report Share Posted February 9, 2022 1 hour ago, Chach said: I am not interested in debate on the internet, I am only interested in dialectic. Dialectic Is also an argument or debate between different people to find the truth, how can you be interested in one without the other. In other words you are posting your beliefs as fact and aren’t prepared to argue or debate their merits. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chach Posted February 9, 2022 Report Share Posted February 9, 2022 19 hours ago, dunlopp9987 said: And did you see the data on the WaPo that says despite Black people making up just 13% of the population, they are killed by police at more than twice the rate of white people? And to your point about "all the people shot have in common is they are almost always armed and threatening police", why don't we talk about Eric Garner? Or Sandra Bland. Or Philando Castile. Or Tony Robinson. Or Walter Scott. Or Freddie Gray. Or Botham Jean. Or Breonna Taylor. Or Elijah McClain. Or George Floyd. Or Amir Locke. I literally put in my post that black people are disproportionally involved in police killings so I am not sure what point you are trying to make with your first comment, my point was that there is no evidence it's racially motivated. Do you have any, and why are twice as many white people shot and what motivated that? To your second point I said the majority not all of them and again why cherry pick people of colour? Is it because you don't even know the names of the white people which was my actual point that you refuse to engage with! How many people out of the ones you listed resisted arrest? Which of the people in this thread would refuse to comply with a lawful direction and go hands on with a cop who is carrying a gun? After these horrific events where are the leaders pleading with people to comply with the directions of police even if they feel at the time they are being unjustly arrested? The one I was most personally disturbed by in your list, the sheer senselessness of was Philando Castile, but do you think the fact that civilians (him in this instance) are driving around with their wives and children with guns in the car might be a slightly mitigating circumstance in the way cops behave? You can go on youtube and watch cops get shot in traffic stops doing their job, 62 last year (thats just the ones shot, quite a few get run over with cars), do you know any of their names. Quite a few black ones no doubt. Breonna Taylor is another one that I find gobsmacking particularly when non US progressives are spouting about it, "they didn't knock" meanwhile her dropkick of a boyfriend doesn't think it's necessary to identify who is coming in and just opens fire. Completely normal behaviour and not remotely psychopathic. This doesn't hold up in any other western country. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chach Posted February 9, 2022 Report Share Posted February 9, 2022 21 hours ago, dunlopp9987 said: And I usually don't like to use this argument, but in this case it seems relevant. I see you're in Australia. Are you an American living there? Have you spent a significant amount of time living here in the US, particularly with any Black friends who you might have had conversations with regarding this topic? On this subject I primarily listen to black public intellectuals who are honestly engaging with the data and who are interested in evidence based solutions to improve the lives of the most vulnerable people in society (of whom black people are disproportionately represented) because I am genuinely horrified by the carnage and inequality that goes on in your country. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chach Posted February 9, 2022 Report Share Posted February 9, 2022 21 hours ago, dunlopp9987 said: Being Black in this country is a struggle I will never understand, but I can read and watch and listen and learn, and hope that we can eventually live in not a post-racial society, but an anti-racist society. This sounds like you have only been reading Ibrham X Kendi and Ta-Nehisi Coates, I'd recommend complementing it with some Glenn Loury and John McWhorter, both of whom are sick of being infantilised by well meaning white people who profess to be anti-racist while holding black people to a lower standard. It also sounds like you still believe in biological race which is the only thing that will keep racism alive so I would also recommend this. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cornish Steve Posted February 9, 2022 Report Share Posted February 9, 2022 1 hour ago, Chach said: I literally put in my post that black people are disproportionally involved in police killings so I am not sure what point you are trying to make with your first comment, my point was that there is no evidence it's racially motivated. Do you have any, and why are twice as many white people shot and what motivated that? To your second point I said the majority not all of them and again why cherry pick people of colour? Is it because you don't even know the names of the white people which was my actual point that you refuse to engage with! How many people out of the ones you listed resisted arrest? Which of the people in this thread would refuse to comply with a lawful direction and go hands on with a cop who is carrying a gun? After these horrific events where are the leaders pleading with people to comply with the directions of police even if they feel at the time they are being unjustly arrested? The one I was most personally disturbed by in your list, the sheer senselessness of was Philando Castile, but do you think the fact that civilians (him in this instance) are driving around with their wives and children with guns in the car might be a slightly mitigating circumstance in the way cops behave? You can go on youtube and watch cops get shot in traffic stops doing their job, 62 last year (thats just the ones shot, quite a few get run over with cars), do you know any of their names. Quite a few black ones no doubt. Breonna Taylor is another one that I find gobsmacking particularly when non US progressives are spouting about it, "they didn't knock" meanwhile her dropkick of a boyfriend doesn't think it's necessary to identify who is coming in and just opens fire. Completely normal behaviour and not remotely psychopathic. This doesn't hold up in any other western country. No other Western country has such a problem with guns - combined with giving police the right to "no-knock warrants" in the middle of the night that too often raid the wrong house. In Texas, a white homeowner has been mostly ignored for shooting an unarmed Moroccan who seems to have lost his way on GPS and temporarily parked on the guy's driveway. That, apparently, is not an issue. But when a crowd of armed individuals smash down the doorway of a black couple, you're blaming the resident for trying to use a gun? What we're seeing is a toxic cocktail of problems: lack of appropriate gun laws, overbearing police powers, and institutionalized racism. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sibdane Posted February 9, 2022 Report Share Posted February 9, 2022 . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sibdane Posted February 20, 2022 Report Share Posted February 20, 2022 Is it just me, or did my post disappear? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt Posted February 20, 2022 Report Share Posted February 20, 2022 5 minutes ago, Sibdane said: Is it just me, or did my post disappear? This is the Trump thread dude. Wrong place? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sibdane Posted February 20, 2022 Report Share Posted February 20, 2022 9 minutes ago, Matt said: This is the Trump thread dude. Wrong place? It is the wrong place. Now I’m confused how I ended up here, since I usually view by unread threads. dunlopp9987 and Matt 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dunlopp9987 Posted February 20, 2022 Report Share Posted February 20, 2022 2 hours ago, Matt said: This is the Trump thread dude. Wrong place? No it's the US politics thread. No need to mention Drumpf anymore. Although I have a feeling we're gonna be talking about him a lot in two years Sibdane 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Palfy Posted February 20, 2022 Report Share Posted February 20, 2022 Just now, dunlopp9987 said: No it's the US politics thread. No need to mention Drumpf anymore. Although I have a feeling we're gonna be talking about him a lot in two years I think you’re right mate Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sibdane Posted February 20, 2022 Report Share Posted February 20, 2022 52 minutes ago, dunlopp9987 said: No it's the US politics thread. No need to mention Drumpf anymore. Although I have a feeling we're gonna be talking about him a lot in two years Cut that shit out now. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt Posted February 20, 2022 Report Share Posted February 20, 2022 1 hour ago, dunlopp9987 said: No it's the US politics thread. No need to mention Drumpf anymore. Although I have a feeling we're gonna be talking about him a lot in two years Hopefully he'll be dead by then. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sibdane Posted February 20, 2022 Report Share Posted February 20, 2022 32 minutes ago, Matt said: Hopefully he'll be dead by then. I would rarely agree on something like this, but I’m right there with you. Hate it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt Posted February 20, 2022 Report Share Posted February 20, 2022 2 minutes ago, Sibdane said: I would rarely agree on something like this, but I’m right there with you. Hate it. I used to be really disappointed in myself for thinking so, but then he kept being himself. Sibdane 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sibdane Posted February 20, 2022 Report Share Posted February 20, 2022 29 minutes ago, Matt said: I used to be really disappointed in myself for thinking so, but then he kept being himself. It’s a hard concept to stomach, to wish death on another individual. But it’s human and worth admitting. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Palfy Posted February 20, 2022 Report Share Posted February 20, 2022 1 minute ago, Sibdane said: It’s a hard concept to stomach, to wish death on another individual. But it’s human and worth admitting. Strangely no one has wished Putin would die, surely he’s the biggest threat to world peace Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sibdane Posted February 20, 2022 Report Share Posted February 20, 2022 Just now, Palfy said: Strangely no one has wished Putin would die, surely he’s the biggest threat to world peace What makes you think that? Putin and Trump are in the same boat. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Palfy Posted February 20, 2022 Report Share Posted February 20, 2022 9 minutes ago, Sibdane said: What makes you think that? Putin and Trump are in the same boat. Just that I hadn’t seen those who wish Trump would die wish the same on Putin. Well let’s hope it get’s torpedoed soon. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt Posted February 20, 2022 Report Share Posted February 20, 2022 1 hour ago, Palfy said: Strangely no one has wished Putin would die, surely he’s the biggest threat to world peace If he's was a bloated 70 odd year old I'd be hoping time would be helping us there too. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeO Posted February 20, 2022 Report Share Posted February 20, 2022 1 hour ago, Palfy said: Strangely no one has wished Putin would die, surely he’s the biggest threat to world peace Difference is, I think, that if Putin was to die there'd be another clone to take his place; Trump is a one-off. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Palfy Posted February 20, 2022 Report Share Posted February 20, 2022 28 minutes ago, MikeO said: Difference is, I think, that if Putin was to die there'd be another clone to take his place; Trump is a one-off. We might get a Gorbachev or a Yeltsin when Putin is done. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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