US Politics/Biden Presidency (Trump-free zone)

[markjazzbassist]

21 hours ago, Palfy said:

Who would have thought that Biden would turnout to be just as big a fool than Trump, for political bullshit he chose 9/11 as the date to completely withdraw from Afghanistan like it was some sort of symbolic game and would make him look good in the annuals of history, Truly fucked up by doing that with no plan in place, now  the Americans are re-enacting Saigon 1975 running for their lives and leaving  thousands who helped them to be slaughtered, Biden needs to be put in a care home to live out his last few years, at least Trump had the foresight    to say they would negotiate a deal with the Taliban before they left. 

i think this national security advisor said it best, it's not on the USA, it's on the afghans. 

 

"Despite the fact that we spent 20 years and tens of billions of dollars to give the best equipment, the best training and the best capacity to the Afghan national security forces, we could not give them the will," Sullivan said on NBC. "And they ultimately decided that they would not fight for Kabul and they would not fight for the country."

[Palfy]

2 hours ago, markjazzbassist said:

i think this national security advisor said it best, it's not on the USA, it's on the afghans. 

 

"Despite the fact that we spent 20 years and tens of billions of dollars to give the best equipment, the best training and the best capacity to the Afghan national security forces, we could not give them the will," Sullivan said on NBC. "And they ultimately decided that they would not fight for Kabul and they would not fight for the country."

It’s all about money isn’t it, and fuck the civilians and their families left to be slaughtered, I’ve listened to your politicians on both sides and more believe Biden has completely messed this up, I have listened to your political journalists and most say Biden got it wrong, even your military leaders have said it’s wrong even the people who served there say it’s wrong. The lives of the Americans killed there have been for what, it should have been a negotiated withdrawal with the Taliban with policies signed agreed and but in place before any withdrawals where implemented, but no Biden decides that 9/11 will be the date like it’s a game a little bit of political fun, you can just imagine him sat round the table in the Oval Office telling his staff, hey guys let’s leave on 9/11 we invaded because of 9/11 so wouldn’t it be cool to leave on 9/11, the American people will love that. I literally feel repulsed and sick about what’s happening in Afghanistan and what’s going to happen to it’s people, what must it be like to have that much fear for your life that you would hang on to the outside of a plane and fall to your death rather than take your chances with an un negotiated Taliban take over. 

[MikeO]

7 minutes ago, Palfy said:

It’s all about money isn’t it, and fuck the civilians and their families left to be slaughtered, I’ve listened to your politicians on both sides and more believe Biden has completely messed this up, I have listened to your political journalists and most say Biden got it wrong, even your military leaders have said it’s wrong even the people who served there say it’s wrong. The lives of the Americans killed there have been for what, it should have been a negotiated withdrawal with the Taliban with policies signed agreed and but in place before any withdrawals where implemented, but no Biden decides that 9/11 will be the date like it’s a game a little bit of political fun, you can just imagine him sat round the table in the Oval Office telling his staff, hey guys let’s leave on 9/11 we invaded because of 9/11 so wouldn’t it be cool to leave on 9/11, the American people will love that. I literally feel repulsed and sick about what’s happening in Afghanistan and what’s going to happen to it’s people, what must it be like to have that much fear for your life that you would hang on to the outside of a plane and fall to your death rather than take your chances with an un negotiated Taliban take over. 

Feel that but I don't believe for a minute that the Taliban were ever coming to the negotiating table; didn't need to, just waited and then moved in on their own terms.

[Palfy]

Just now, MikeO said:

Feel that but I don't believe for a minute that the Taliban were ever coming to the negotiating table; didn't need to, just waited and then moved in on their own terms.

They did sit around the table with Trump after he announced that there would be a withdrawal, he didn’t get the job done because he lost the election, it was Biden and his administration who should have taken on what Trump started. Let’s not forget until Biden set that date and started removing troops the Taliban had no control in any region of Afghanistan they had pockets of resistance, no American or allied forces had been engaged in combat for quite a while, they were mainly training and giving support to the government forces, yet the number of American and allied soldiers was enough to deter the Taliban from all out attack on government forces. 

[MikeO]

4 minutes ago, Palfy said:

They did sit around the table with Trump after he announced that there would be a withdrawal...

You seriously believe the taliban were going to be straight with that gullible numpty?

[Palfy]

1 minute ago, MikeO said:

You seriously believe the taliban were going to be straight with that gullible numpty?

I believe there should have been a negotiated withdrawal with the Americans no matter who was President, and this should have been agreed and supported by the UN, with the threat of military action against the Taliban if they broke agreements and committed crimes against the civilian population, that’s who we should be looking out for especially those who supported the Americans and allies, and the women who were encouraged to take up posts in politics and education, they have the most to fear by the way Biden implemented the withdrawal, surely even the most hardened Biden supporters can’t but feel that this has turned out to be an unmitigated disaster by Biden and his inner circle. 

[markjazzbassist]

I understand you are upset palfy, I just don’t think we had any business there in the first place.  In america  schools they love to talk about how we were tops in the world post WWII because that war gave generated so much money and helped establish the middle class.  Ever since then politicians think the best way to solve the failing economy is to just have another war!  Seriously.  They do it for the economic production, it’s sickening.  We shouldn’t have been there, or Iraq; or Kuwait, it’s not our place.  Those people have customs and history that have nothing to do with us.  Team america world police is not needed.  They need to work those things out themselves, else we get this current situation where we tried to change it and help and 20 years later it reverts back overnight because our way just isn’t the way.
 

lastly, why aren’t you pissed at your government?  Shouldn’t you be petitioning them to help and intervene?  Why us?

[Palfy]

1 hour ago, markjazzbassist said:

I understand you are upset palfy, I just don’t think we had any business there in the first place.  In america  schools they love to talk about how we were tops in the world post WWII because that war gave generated so much money and helped establish the middle class.  Ever since then politicians think the best way to solve the failing economy is to just have another war!  Seriously.  They do it for the economic production, it’s sickening.  We shouldn’t have been there, or Iraq; or Kuwait, it’s not our place.  Those people have customs and history that have nothing to do with us.  Team america world police is not needed.  They need to work those things out themselves, else we get this current situation where we tried to change it and help and 20 years later it reverts back overnight because our way just isn’t the way.
 

lastly, why aren’t you pissed at your government?  Shouldn’t you be petitioning them to help and intervene?  Why us?

I am pissed with my government we have blindly followed America and it’s war on terrorism for years, 9/11 was the reason America waged war in Afghanistan, America had been attacked in a way never witnessed before the world’s super power was rocked, and Bush Jr and his government were determined someone was going to pay to appease the American people and put the USA right back to the top, and that was Afghanistan for allowing terrorist organisations to work in it’s borders, so the USA Afghan war is born out of vengeance for the 9/11 attacks, so to legitimise what it was going to do America canvases support for it’s actions and like the lap dog we are when it comes to the USA we blindly followed. We did the same when the Americans lied about chemical weapons in Iraqi that didn’t exist, simply because America wanted to get rid of Sadam and secure the oil fields, another war that they instigated and lead and we blindly followed, they call what we have a speacial relationship imo America puts pressure on us to do their bidding and we follow because economically we are scared not to. America use to be looked at as a power for good over evil not anymore America is becoming the evil and what they have done to the Afghan people is beyond evil, and yes once again we have followed. The only real power for good is the EU and they get it wrong a lot of the time, but they are fundamentally honest and try to do the right thing, America as we are are led by scheming liars and to think we left the EU to become closer to the USA economically and politically god help us. 

[Formby]

12 hours ago, Palfy said:

 Let’s not forget until Biden set that date and started removing troops the Taliban had no control in any region of Afghanistan they had pockets of resistance, no American or allied forces had been engaged in combat for quite a while, they were mainly training and giving support to the government forces, yet the number of American and allied soldiers was enough to deter the Taliban from all out attack on government forces. 

Totally agree. Some 3500 American soldiers, I think. And not a casualty since February 2020. Not sure what America was spending on keeping its soldiers there, but I'm sure it was a drop compared to their annual military spend. The whole thing is an abject failure on Biden's part - and of American foreign policy. Russia and China circling, Pakistan will need to cut deals with Taliban to prevent insurgents crossing the border. American sphere of interest in the region will be zero. Maybe, they don't care now, but they will if the expected rise in jihadists start using Afghanistan as a base again. 

[Formby]

9 hours ago, markjazzbassist said:

lastly, why aren’t you pissed at your government?  Shouldn’t you be petitioning them to help and intervene?  Why us?

Because the US is the only country capable of doing so? We are pissed at out our government. but it is completely ineffectual. Europe is completely incapable of defending itself within its own borders (see Bosnia), never mind somewhere further afield. America will limp out of Afghanistan the way the British and the Russians did before. 

[markjazzbassist]

7 minutes ago, Formby said:

Because the US is the only country capable of doing so? We are pissed at out our government. but it is completely ineffectual. Europe is completely incapable of defending itself within its own borders (see Bosnia), never mind somewhere further afield. America will limp out of Afghanistan the way the British and the Russians did before. 

You are capable you have a ton of money and military as well.  I’m not sure why we need to be the global police.  I’m all for isolationism, let’s worry about fixing the ills in our own country first before we try and mess with other countries.  We have mass poverty, violence, crime, etc, let’s work on righting those wrongs first in America.

[Palfy]

1 hour ago, markjazzbassist said:

You are capable you have a ton of money and military as well.  I’m not sure why we need to be the global police.  I’m all for isolationism, let’s worry about fixing the ills in our own country first before we try and mess with other countries.  We have mass poverty, violence, crime, etc, let’s work on righting those wrongs first in America.

America have for many years used the British and the rest of Europe as a buffer between them and the Russians, America doesn’t want a war on it’s own soil but have always been prepared to finance it on someone else’s soil. But now the dynamics have changed and the power is moving to the likes of China and Russia, they even mess with your security and Political systems knowing fully well you know but won’t do nothing about it, look at China’s state news it has been taking the piss out of America because what has happened over the last week or so, look at North Korea absolutely taking the piss out of America and Trump for years with no fear of reprisals, America’s dominance in the world as a leader for what’s right has been compromised by the Trump administration and Biden has possibly just put the final nail in the coffin of America having a meaningful input into world politics because they can’t be trusted. So take your military and weapons back to America and fight your own wars on your soil on your own, as a country you’ve been threatening it for years have the balls to do it you don’t need us, or wait do you?

[Formby]

2 hours ago, markjazzbassist said:

You are capable you have a ton of money and military as well.  

Do you mean the UK or Europe? The last time I checked American military spend was greater than all the other countries in the world combined! Our military capability is insignificant compared to yours. Just look at the deployments in Iraq and Afghanistan. The British could barely hold Basra or Helmand. Our weapons didn't even work in the desert.

[markjazzbassist]

10 minutes ago, Formby said:

Do you mean the UK or Europe? The last time I checked American military spend was greater than all the other countries in the world combined! Our military capability is insignificant compared to yours. Just look at the deployments in Iraq and Afghanistan. The British could barely hold Basra or Helmand. Our weapons didn't even work in the desert.

i understand we are massive compared to others, but surely the Uk gov (you're not in eu so i don't think you get access to their military anymore?) has enough to beat some rebels in the desert.  it wasn't an actual war, it was an excuse for economic production and defense spending.

 

i'm laughing at these republicans "why end this, look what happened".  fact of the matter is they don't care one iota about the people there, they just care about the defense spending and wanting another war for the economy.  don't for one second think the outcry is about the people, it's not.

[Matt]

37 minutes ago, markjazzbassist said:

i understand we are massive compared to others, but surely the Uk gov (you're not in eu so i don't think you get access to their military anymore?) has enough to beat some rebels in the desert.  it wasn't an actual war, it was an excuse for economic production and defense spending.

 

i'm laughing at these republicans "why end this, look what happened".  fact of the matter is they don't care one iota about the people there, they just care about the defense spending and wanting another war for the economy.  don't for one second think the outcry is about the people, it's not.

The EU doesn't have a military anyway, so in or out is irrelevant.

[Formby]

53 minutes ago, markjazzbassist said:

but surely the Uk gov (you're not in eu so i don't think you get access to their military anymore?) has enough to beat some rebels in the desert. 

Those 'rebels in the desert' have just humbled the US. It's the kind of disparaging terminology that results in military overconfidence and ultimate failure. The British, the Russians never succeeded in holding Afghanistan. There's a lesson there. I am very sure the US, the UK and EU troops, by the end of their tours, would have realised what they were really up against - forbidding terrain, forbidding heat and a determined and resourceful enemy.  

[Ghoat]

3 hours ago, markjazzbassist said:

You are capable you have a ton of money and military as well.  I’m not sure why we need to be the global police.  I’m all for isolationism, let’s worry about fixing the ills in our own country first before we try and mess with other countries.  We have mass poverty, violence, crime, etc, let’s work on righting those wrongs first in America.

But when The Orange Man did exactly that he was accused of xenophobia, and of wrecking all of our alliances. That was literally the policies behind Make American Great Again - balancing out trade tariffs/imbalances, and leaning more on regional allies to hand regional issues. I'm not saying he was totally successful, or not a bull in a china shop in his approach, but he had a some wins for sure, despite all his MANY failings and fucked up demeanor. He was the one that actually pulled almost all of the combat troops out of Afghanistan, leaving the contingent of special forces and advisors, instead of infantry and armor.

 

"Speak Softly and Carry a Big Stick" is about the only way you can deal, IMO, with the Taliban and such - but it only works if they know good and damn well you will wield said Big Stick. Point in case, look at what's happening today. The Taliban has zero fear of Biden wacking them with a stick. What should have been a long overdue tactical withdrawal has turned into a dumpster fire. This could be our worst foreign policy disaster in years. And regardless of who is in the White House, NO ONE should be happy that we have created in International shitshow.

[Ghoat]

7 minutes ago, Formby said:

Those 'rebels in the desert' have just humbled the US. It's the kind of disparaging terminology that results in military overconfidence and ultimate failure. The British, the Russians never succeeded in holding Afghanistan. There's a lesson there. I am very sure the US, the UK and EU troops, by the end of their tours, would have realised what they were really up against - forbidding terrain, forbidding heat and a determined and resourceful enemy.  

Very much like Viet Nam, in respects to an unconventional enemy that is willing to absorb disproportionate losses and play the long game, be that 5 years or 30.

[markjazzbassist]

1 hour ago, Formby said:

Those 'rebels in the desert' have just humbled the US. It's the kind of disparaging terminology that results in military overconfidence and ultimate failure. The British, the Russians never succeeded in holding Afghanistan. There's a lesson there. I am very sure the US, the UK and EU troops, by the end of their tours, would have realised what they were really up against - forbidding terrain, forbidding heat and a determined and resourceful enemy.  

 

they didn't humble us!  we left and they defeated the afghans.  we defeated them and controlled the country comfortably for 20 years with a couple thousand troops that's it.

 

1 hour ago, Ghoat said:

But when The Orange Man did exactly that he was accused of xenophobia, and of wrecking all of our alliances. That was literally the policies behind Make American Great Again - balancing out trade tariffs/imbalances, and leaning more on regional allies to hand regional issues. I'm not saying he was totally successful, or not a bull in a china shop in his approach, but he had a some wins for sure, despite all his MANY failings and fucked up demeanor. He was the one that actually pulled almost all of the combat troops out of Afghanistan, leaving the contingent of special forces and advisors, instead of infantry and armor.

 

"Speak Softly and Carry a Big Stick" is about the only way you can deal, IMO, with the Taliban and such - but it only works if they know good and damn well you will wield said Big Stick. Point in case, look at what's happening today. The Taliban has zero fear of Biden wacking them with a stick. What should have been a long overdue tactical withdrawal has turned into a dumpster fire. This could be our worst foreign policy disaster in years. And regardless of who is in the White House, NO ONE should be happy that we have created in International shitshow.

 

i am not a big trump fan, but i am not some partisan all good or all bad politico.  i liked some of the things trump did or stood for.  i'm ok saying that. i would hope some repubs could say the same about biden or obama. i liked his isolationism and his claims he would "end all the wars".  he didn't do that (he didn't completely end them, so technically he didn't fulfill that promise) but he got the ball rolling.  i don't like team america world police thing.  people often don't realize (not saying this is you, you seem intelligent) that the far left and far right actually have some things they agree on, Bernie Sanders and Trump were both anti-china and pro-isolationism.  both were pro-US manufacturing and jobs and anti-amazon.

[Formby]

3 hours ago, markjazzbassist said:

 

they didn't humble us!  we left and they defeated the afghans.  we defeated them and controlled the country comfortably for 20 years with a couple thousand troops that's it.

America’s humiliation is more American hubris - The Washington Post

Military and Washington's policymakers reflect on the Afghan collapse - The Washington Post

The Taliban were never defeated militarily. They just melted away into the mountains, biding their time. You were in control, in essence, of what they let you control - nothing. It happened to the British in the 19th century and Russia in the 20th.  

[Bailey]

It is an abject failure of all US, UK and other Nato forces that were in Afghanistan to let it get to this, and worst of all in my opinion, is to let it continue. 

These countries can pat themselves on the back about how they are going to look after those that helped the various nations, but what about all those innocent people they have now failed and have surrendered to a life under a terrorist organisation that treats women like animals? 

My heart goes out to them all, I can't even comprehend how scared you must be to risk falling off a flying plane just to try and get out. 

 

[MikeO]

32 minutes ago, Formby said:

America’s humiliation is more American hubris - The Washington Post

Military and Washington's policymakers reflect on the Afghan collapse - The Washington Post

The Taliban were never defeated militarily. They just melted away into the mountains, biding their time. You were in control, in essence, of what they let you control - nothing. It happened to the British in the 19th century and Russia in the 20th.  

Irony is that the CIA actively backed the Mujahideen against the Soviet Union (stictly speaking not Russian) invasion, they were very much seen as the good guys; and the Taliban came from the Mujahideen.

[Ghoat]

35 minutes ago, MikeO said:

Irony is that the CIA actively backed the Mujahideen against the Soviet Union (stictly speaking not Russian) invasion, they were very much seen as the good guys; and the Taliban came from the Mujahideen.

The enemy of my enemy is my friend. We were all allied with Stalin. 

[MikeO]

7 minutes ago, Ghoat said:

The enemy of my enemy is my friend. We were all allied with Stalin. 

True enough, but WW2 was another level.

[Sibdane]

9 hours ago, Ghoat said:

But when The Orange Man did exactly that he was accused of xenophobia, and of wrecking all of our alliances. That was literally the policies behind Make American Great Again - balancing out trade tariffs/imbalances, and leaning more on regional allies to hand regional issues. I'm not saying he was totally successful, or not a bull in a china shop in his approach, but he had a some wins for sure, despite all his MANY failings and fucked up demeanor. He was the one that actually pulled almost all of the combat troops out of Afghanistan, leaving the contingent of special forces and advisors, instead of infantry and armor.

 

"Speak Softly and Carry a Big Stick" is about the only way you can deal, IMO, with the Taliban and such - but it only works if they know good and damn well you will wield said Big Stick. Point in case, look at what's happening today. The Taliban has zero fear of Biden wacking them with a stick. What should have been a long overdue tactical withdrawal has turned into a dumpster fire. This could be our worst foreign policy disaster in years. And regardless of who is in the White House, NO ONE should be happy that we have created in International shitshow.

Trump's main issue was his childish behavior and lack of self-awareness. That won't get anyone on your side. 

[Sibdane]

5 hours ago, Formby said:

America’s humiliation is more American hubris - The Washington Post

Military and Washington's policymakers reflect on the Afghan collapse - The Washington Post

The Taliban were never defeated militarily. They just melted away into the mountains, biding their time. You were in control, in essence, of what they let you control - nothing. It happened to the British in the 19th century and Russia in the 20th.  

That's the thing with Afghanistan. We went there knowing how difficult it would be to make an impact. We can't handle/know that terrain, and all the infighting with the different tribes is another issue we weren't prepared for.

Nobody wanted us there but us. I'll admit that when 9/11 happened I did want someone or something to pay the price, so I was all about making that happen. We just took the wrong route. I do find it pretty incredible that Democrats hated when Trump decided to pull out of foreign wars, and I now find it equally incredible that Republicans are complaining that we're actually do it.

Damned if you do, damned if you don't, eh?

[Formby]

9 hours ago, MikeO said:

Irony is that the CIA actively backed the Mujahideen against the Soviet Union (stictly speaking not Russian) invasion, they were very much seen as the good guys; and the Taliban came from the Mujahideen.

Absolutely. The CIA love proxy wars that serve American geopolitical interests. Then complain when countries like Pakistan do the same thing. Rory Stewart made a really good series about Afghanistan (British India) a few years ago - The Great Game. Worth watching if you're interested. Empires have a bad habit of behaving badly and believing in their own invincibility. It never ends well.

[Palfy]

The BBC fact checked Biden’s last address to his country, he was very economical with the truth, the one that stood out for me was when he said we never went there to nation build, yet in 2001 and 2003 he completely said the opposite, he said they were going to help the Afghans form a government and set up elections, now let’s give him the benefit of the doubt in 2001 he might have slightly got mixed up but to reiterate it again in 2003 dispels that theory, if that’s not called nation building I don’t no what is, he’s completely messed up with massive consequences for the Afghan people the world knows, but he wants to blame the Afghan military accusing them of having no fight, again a lie and fact checked since the formation of the the Afghan forces put together by the Americans and the British over 70,000 Afghan service men have lost their lives fighting the Taliban does that sound like they’ve got no fight. 

[markjazzbassist]

thing is palfy polls show majority of americans want us out of there, even after this fiasco.  they don't care, they think we need to fix the issues in our country first.  he is doing the will of the people.  might not be pretty, but it's what WE want.

[Ghoat]

I do think most Americans, left/right red/blue wanted to see us continue to scale back our involvement and withdraw combat troops. 

 

However, I don't think any Americans wanted to see our embassy overrun, the Taliban encircling the city in American humvees, civilians falling to the deaths off C-17s, and thousands of American citizens trapped outside the perimeter being told to "Shelter in Place" while we ask the Taliban nicely if they will let you through. 

Unmitigated. Cluster. Fuck. 

There are failings at many levels, State Department, Joint Chiefs etc, but ultimately, as he said "The Buck Stops With Me". This will rest at the feet of Joe Biden. He is completely over his head at this point and it looks like his party is abandoning ship on him. 

He has been sheltered quite a bit since he took office, I do not think he is competent to lead or hold the office, and this seems to be bearing that out. Don't get me wrong, I don't think Biden is a bad guy in the least, and I don't hate him, but I don't think he's driving the bus at all. I personally feel he is far more the face, not the power, of the executive branch from day one. And now he is being left to bear the responsibility for other's (advisors, administration et al) inept foreign policy acumen. This is the first real backlash this administration has faced (besides from the opposition party), and it's a biggie.