US Politics/Biden Presidency (Trump-free zone)

[Chach]

15 hours ago, Ghoat said:

The point of all that was that you were shocked that "The Squad" are considered "progressive" or even "liberal" in our political arena. So I did a lot of digging trying to understand why you had that viewpoint that seemed absurd. I'll be damned, but there is pretty good reasons for you to think that. I simply compared the different road taken to arrive at a similar place in time.

And nah, we stole both ideas. Like a hip-hop artist mashing a couple things up. Both Greece and the Adam Smith estate tried to file for copyright infringement, but neither filed the proper paperwork with the EU.

If you go back I actually said I was surprised that things like universal healthcare and anthropogenic global warming  were considered leftwing or liberal issues in the states. I think you can make a good conservative argument for universal healthcare and not polluting the planet.

I've come to see that in reality conservatives and progressives need each other, its a symbiotic relationship that is useful to the group in general, both sides over reach and you can see demonstrated in the world how problematic that has been when one side has had too much power and become authoritarian.

The squad are great but I get the feeling a couple of them would over reach if they got the opportunity, AOC and Pressley in particular.

I'm not a fan of this kind of identity politics

 

[StevO]

I don’t see the issue with it. In a country that is riddled with racism, to have a voice for different people is a good thing. A country with a massively mixed population should have a massively mixed government, not just he represented by wealthy old white men surely?

I think AOC is fantastic personally. She scares the shit out of wealthy old white men, that’s no bad thing in politics to me. 

[Ghoat]

4 hours ago, StevO said:

I don’t see the issue with it. In a country that is riddled with racism, to have a voice for different people is a good thing. A country with a massively mixed population should have a massively mixed government, not just he represented by wealthy old white men surely?

I think AOC is fantastic personally. She scares the shit out of wealthy old white men, that’s no bad thing in politics to me. 

Personally I don't think she's terribly bright - not just because I disagree with a lot of her proposals, I just don't think she's terribly bright. 

But I absolutely agree that there needs to be dissenting voices, viewpoints and opinions, even if they're not ones I particularly like. If 20 stupid ideas from either side lead to one good idea that makes a difference, that's a good thing.

I would like to have seen over the course of a 4-year presidency or maybe even an 8-year presidency what George W's "compassionate conservatism" would have actually looked like. In theory to me at least that still meant basic conservative principles a little more limited government and people's lives, but not gutting social programs in the process. Of course less than nine months into his presidency 9/11 occured, and completely changed whatever plans he had, so we'll never know.

[Ghoat]

And for the record, my dislike of AOC, or The Squad as a whole, is not due to their gender, ethnicity or religion, I don't like their policies. But we certainly don't need more wealthy old white guys in DC, of either party.

[Ghoat]

9 hours ago, Chach said:

I've come to see that in reality conservatives and progressives need each other, its a symbiotic relationship that is useful to the group in general, both sides over reach and you can see demonstrated in the world how problematic that has been when one side has had too much power and become authoritarian.

I knew you would eventually say something I agreed with

[Chach]

13 hours ago, StevO said:

I don’t see the issue with it. In a country that is riddled with racism, to have a voice for different people is a good thing. A country with a massively mixed population should have a massively mixed government, not just he represented by wealthy old white men surely?

She's not saying there should be more diversity in government, she's saying that a persons politics should be determined by their skin colour/sexuality/religion. Politics based on "group identity" is not something we should be aspiring to, we've plenty of example in history of how that has lead to less cohesive societies.

[StevO]

8 hours ago, Chach said:

She's not saying there should be more diversity in government, she's saying that a persons politics should be determined by their skin colour/sexuality/religion. Politics based on "group identity" is not something we should be aspiring to, we've plenty of example in history of how that has lead to less cohesive societies.

I completely disagree, I think you’re looking for that negative view in what she says. All I hear from her is if you are black, represent what black people want, if you’re Muslim represent what Muslim people want. If you’re brown represent what brown people want. Don’t turn up and represent what you think other politicians want. 

Would you rather everyone just represent the same old white ideas that have ruled the government since day one?
For a capitalist country it seem that only certain groups are allowed to capitalise. 

[Chach]

14 hours ago, StevO said:

I completely disagree, I think you’re looking for that negative view in what he says, all I hear from Trump is if you are white, represent what white people want, if you’re straight represent what straight people want. If you’re rich represent what rich people want. 

Would you rather everyone just represent the same old white ideas that have ruled the government since day one?

How do we feel about the bolded now?

We haven't made the progress we have made using this kind of divisive language, you look at the great civil rights leaders and they used language that appealed to our sense of common humanity., this language is a backwards step in my opinion specially from a politician elected to represent a fairly diverse constituency.

 

ps Regarding the italics, I really have to know what do you mean by "white ideas?"

[Palfy]

On 15/09/2019 at 02:51, Chach said:

She's not saying there should be more diversity in government, she's saying that a persons politics should be determined by their skin colour/sexuality/religion. Politics based on "group identity" is not something we should be aspiring to, we've plenty of example in history of how that has lead to less cohesive societies.

But who you are does represent your political view, as does your colour religion sexuality and your location, that does make it more diverse if we didn’t use those factors there would be less diversity, I fail to understand your argument,  the last power house who tried to take away those factors that made us diverse and different were the Germans when they wanted to create the arian state where everyone was the same. 

[Matt]

3 hours ago, Palfy said:

But who you are does represent your political view, as does your colour religion sexuality and your location, that does make it more diverse if we didn’t use those factors there would be less diversity, I fail to understand your argument,  the last power house who tried to take away those factors that made us diverse and different were the Germans when they wanted to create the arian state where everyone was the same. 

Don’t confuse Germans and Nazis. 

[Palfy]

2 hours ago, Matt said:

Don’t confuse Germans and Nazis. 

That’s true but you know where I’m coming from I trust. 

[Matt]

1 minute ago, Palfy said:

That’s true but you know where I’m coming from I trust. 

I do mate. It’s just something that always gets me annoyed. 

[StevO]

12 hours ago, Chach said:

How do we feel about the bolded now?

We haven't made the progress we have made using this kind of divisive language, you look at the great civil rights leaders and they used language that appealed to our sense of common humanity., this language is a backwards step in my opinion specially from a politician elected to represent a fairly diverse constituency.

 

ps Regarding the italics, I really have to know what do you mean by "white ideas?"

What progress has been made? 
Yeah, black people can vote and can sit on the bus. They can also be shot by the police and no one gets prosecuted. I don’t see progress on how minorities are treated over there at all. I’ve been lucky enough to travel a lot of the world, I’ve seen a lot of Europe, I’ve seen the Far East, Caribbean, parts of Africa, yet only one country I’ve been to have I seen a black man be called a nigger, in the street, in broad daylight while not doing anything other than going about his business. Even more strangely, I’ve seen similar things happen on other occasions. This incident happened in Vegas on the strip, one occasion in a bar in Birmingham Alabama whole Arctic Monkeys played (I told the bar staff who said “it happens”) and in Florida, in a car park outside Disney. Maybe I’ve been unlucky, but I’ve missed the progress. All I know is I’ve never seen these things happen in the UK, I’m sure they might. 
 

By white ideas I mean any political ideas that are there to keep the old white men in power. All of your presidents apart from one have been white men, that’s not a coincidence. 

[Ghoat]

So you've personally seen 3 examples of racism in the United States, and that show no progress for minorities in the country. I'm assuming if you been in London pub when Zouma gave up a needless penalty not a single person in that bar would have dared utter a racist epitath because, well progress has been achieved in the UK.

Racism is unacceptable, and has been for oh 5000 years or so, but it lives. And people are stupid. But individual stupidly does not equate to institutionalized racism or oppression, it just doesn't.

What do you consider progress besides voting and riding in the front of buses? Economic gains, home ownership, business ownership, education, participation in local state or federal government? Pick a time period - last 40 years, 20 years, 4 years....and show me little/no progress across the spectrum.

Perfect, hell no. Long way to go in some areas, absolutely. But respectfully, I think you are taking a macro view based on 4-5 micro examples.

[MikeO]

2 minutes ago, Ghoat said:

So you've personally seen 3 examples of racism in the United States, and that show no progress for minorities in the country. I'm assuming if you been in London pub when Zouma gave up a needless penalty not a single person in that bar would have dared utter a racist epitath because, well progress has been achieved in the UK.

Racism is unacceptable, and has been for oh 5000 years or so, but it lives. And people are stupid. But individual stupidly does not equate to institutionalized racism or oppression, it just doesn't.

What do you consider progress besides voting and riding in the front of buses? Economic gains, home ownership, business ownership, education, participation in local state or federal government? Pick a time period - last 40 years, 20 years, 4 years....and show me little/no progress across the spectrum.

Perfect, hell no. Long way to go in some areas, absolutely. But respectfully, I think you are taking a macro view based on 4-5 micro examples.

I can only speak from online experience as I used to play a lot of backgammon and hearts (card game) and the computer always identified the location of your opponent(s). I don't do it so much anymore but far and away the most racist language in the comments section was from Americans. It was endemic and was more often "nigga" than "nigger" but used as the "go to" insult of someone who didn't like your move; Ste is citing three examples but I could (had I taken screenshots) offer probably three thousand. Keyboard warriors obviously but very telling for me.

And I was/am (to a lesser extent) good at those games so the computer was matching me with appropriate opponents, no knuckle dragging hicks because they are games of skill, so these people weren't stupid. I ended up disabling the comments option which was a shame because I had many interesting conversations with people from all over the World.

[StevO]

1 hour ago, Ghoat said:

So you've personally seen 3 examples of racism in the United States, and that show no progress for minorities in the country. I'm assuming if you been in London pub when Zouma gave up a needless penalty not a single person in that bar would have dared utter a racist epitath because, well progress has been achieved in the UK.

Racism is unacceptable, and has been for oh 5000 years or so, but it lives. And people are stupid. But individual stupidly does not equate to institutionalized racism or oppression, it just doesn't.

What do you consider progress besides voting and riding in the front of buses? Economic gains, home ownership, business ownership, education, participation in local state or federal government? Pick a time period - last 40 years, 20 years, 4 years....and show me little/no progress across the spectrum.

Perfect, hell no. Long way to go in some areas, absolutely. But respectfully, I think you are taking a macro view based on 4-5 micro examples.

I’m only passing my opinion based on my experiences. My personal experiences from around the world is that I’ve seen black people be racially abused more in a country I visit for no more than a few weeks a year, than I have in a country I’ve spent 35 years. 

Im sure there has been lots of progress, but just because it’s better than it was 100 years ago doesn’t make it right.

I see your politicians are mostly old white men, I see you population as being all kinds of mixed races. I believe your government should represent its people, and from the outside looking it it doesn’t look that way. I may be very very wrong, but I’m saying what I see. 
 

I love your country, it’s a second home to me and has been all my life. I’ve family in Florida and Georgia, it pains me to say it but I’ve seen institutionalised racism from them. From my uncle in his 80s down to cousins in their 20s, racism that is passed down through generations. It’s embarrassing to see it, but gladly it’s in private and I can’t change my family, I still love them. Racism in America is part of the fabric, it’s always been that way. White kids don’t get shot in the street by the police, black kids do. That’s as bad as it can be. 
 

How much harm could really be done to the country if more black, brown, Hispanic, Asian, native Americans or even more females were in power? The rest of the world has been laughing at America since Trump was elected, would it be that bad if someone other than an old white guy was in charge? 
 

If I didn’t care so much about your country I wouldn’t even bother posting, but I do. I hope one day someone gets it right, I don’t think the population will let that happen though. 

[Cornish Steve]

On 14/09/2019 at 07:44, StevO said:

I don’t see the issue with it. In a country that is riddled with racism, to have a voice for different people is a good thing. A country with a massively mixed population should have a massively mixed government, not just he represented by wealthy old white men surely?

I think AOC is fantastic personally. She scares the shit out of wealthy old white men, that’s no bad thing in politics to me. 

I’m a big fan of AOC, too. She’s one smart cookie and should go far. As for others in the squad, I worry about their antiSemitism. 

[markjazzbassist]

how is it anti-semitic to call out israel for their massive human rights violations against Palestinians?  i have friends that are both israeli and Palestinian and the israeli argument just doesn't add up.  not to mention the west bank settlements that are a breach of the agreements they made.  the open air prison known as the gaza strip, the only reason israel gets a pass is because of all the nut job right winger evangelicals that think israel is God's chosen people (last time i checked Jesus said everyone is welcome to the kingdom of God) and are all Pro-Israel. If it weren't for that most americans would view them the same as Iran.  instead they get a religious free pass for oppressing Palestinians.  no thanks from me.  not anti-semitic to call israel for the bully they are.

[StevO]

13 hours ago, Cornish Steve said:

I’m a big fan of AOC, too. She’s one smart cookie and should go far. As for others in the squad, I worry about their antiSemitism. 

She’s the first politician, if you can call her that, who I’ve watched on TV and actually felt inspired in as long as I can remember. I wish we had some like her over here. 

[Matt]

19 hours ago, MikeO said:

I can only speak from online experience as I used to play a lot of backgammon and hearts (card game) and the computer always identified the location of your opponent(s). I don't do it so much anymore but far and away the most racist language in the comments section was from Americans. It was endemic and was more often "nigga" than "nigger" but used as the "go to" insult of someone who didn't like your move; Ste is citing three examples but I could (had I taken screenshots) offer probably three thousand. Keyboard warriors obviously but very telling for me.

And I was/am (to a lesser extent) good at those games so the computer was matching me with appropriate opponents, no knuckle dragging hicks because they are games of skill, so these people weren't stupid. I ended up disabling the comments option which was a shame because I had many interesting conversations with people from all over the World.

Online gaming is a cesspool of racism. I played World of Tanks a lot and the ingame chat got so bad, the company stopped cross team chat to reduce the abuse, although all that meant was that the angry players would through around the insults to their own teammates. 

Its not just a matter of intelligence, the online world gives an anonymity and thus freedom from accountability which just sets the stage for any form of abuse. Reporting players, in WoT at least is pointless, as the automated function does sod all, and even video evidence submitted by a manual ticket to complain usually gets a copy paste reply from the “customer service” support line. 

 

[Ghoat]

 

18 hours ago, StevO said:

Im sure there has been lots of progress, but just because it’s better than it was 100 years ago doesn’t make it right.

I see your politicians are mostly old white men, I see you population as being all kinds of mixed races. I believe your government should represent its people, and from the outside looking it it doesn’t look that way. I may be very very wrong, but I’m saying what I see. 
 

You will find zero argument from me on that (better not right).

The US population is confusing as hell because of the somewhat confusing differentiation of race vs ethnicity, especial when it comes to white/non-white Latino and Hispanic - which seemingly are used interchangeably or incorrectly. Blacks/African Americans are about 13%, Asians about 5% and multi race and "other" somewhere about 11% So if white is about 65% that would put "Hispanic" due to lack of better terms at 15%. So the US is roughly 65% white, which includes European ancestry.  Regardless of the 100 current US Senate there are 4 Hispanic, 3 Black, 3 Asian and 1 mixed race - leaving 89 "white". While that doesn't match the population, you could also argue it should be 100% white (which I don't for the record). With only 2 seats per state, and no state has less than 50% whites. For example, South Carolina has 1 black (republican!) senator and 1 white. The population is roughly 70/30 white black. So with 50/50 on senators, blacks are over-represented by 20% and white under-represented 20%. While the Senate could be, and should be more diverse, it's not "simple math" The House is much different and closer, because it ties to a state's population and the districts are much smaller that "half the state". Of the 435 House seats there are 122 minorities, including 56 black. So whites that are 65% of the population are represented by 70% of the seats. Blacks are 13% of the population and have that same percentage of the seats. That starts to look more representative, yes?

It's absurd to me to look at the make up of our government and use that as a basis or THE basis that the American system is racist. That is overly simplistic, and IMO, intellectually lazy. I do not dispute there is racism in they system at all, but there are several factors that contribute to why "old white men" are disproportionately represented. It is changing, and that trend is good for the country, but I strenuously disagree that the primary reason it's not an exact mirror image of the current population is due to inherent racism (or sexism). 

Let me give you a different perspective or thought on "identity politics" to ponder. For me, a representative should do their best to represent their entire constituency - practically impossible from a diverse electorate, but still. Use Ilhan Omar of Minnesota as an example - she is a black Muslim. If that drives the vast majority of her policy, what about the 60-70% of whites in her district the and the 70-75% Christians? If we as a electorate expect our representatives to primarily push policy based on identity, then the racial diversity of government disappears when the WASP majority in this country votes accordingly, and we get even MORE old white men in power. And honestly, as a WASP, that's the last fucking thing I want to see.

[StevO]

At no point did I say it was THE reason. This debate started because someone didn’t like what a politician said, I liked what they said. Your government is just an example I gave of lack of representation. My reasons for thinking the states is a racist country is pretty much laid out across every single post I’ve made in this thread. The things I’ve seen in your country, the press your country gets, the news we see over her about the states is of a very very racist country. Add to that the rest of the world think you’ve elected a racist president, it appears from all outside angles as a racist country. 
 

For the record, I’m not saying any TT members are racist, I don’t know you all well enough but the few I do feel I know well enough I don’t think are racist. I’ve just seen too much racism and met too many racists over there. 

[Ghoat]

19 hours ago, StevO said:

I love your country, it’s a second home to me and has been all my life. I’ve family in Florida and Georgia, it pains me to say it but I’ve seen institutionalised racism from them. From my uncle in his 80s down to cousins in their 20s, racism that is passed down through generations. It’s embarrassing to see it, but gladly it’s in private and I can’t change my family, I still love them. Racism in America is part of the fabric, it’s always been that way. White kids don’t get shot in the street by the police, black kids do. That’s as bad as it can be. 
 

I couldn't agree more it's generation passed, ESPECIALLY in the Deep South, where you have spent a lot of time. I spent 3 years as a youth in Japan, where I was certainly a minority, I lived in Alaska 3 years, and I have traveled a good bit, but I was basically born and raised in Mississippi, and have grown up in Alabama. My great-grandmother used the terms "nigger woman" or "nigger man" to describe people - more as an adjective, not spat as an insult. She was born in rural Mississippi in 1915 or so, and lived there until she died in the 1990's. It was their world, and how they spoke, which explains it, with justifying or condoning it.  My grandmother I heard much less of that type language from. My Mom went to school during public school in Mississippi during the desegregation 1960's, I don't recall hearing that language from her. My wife and I have raised our daughters to be as color-blind as possible. Not all do, some pass the stupidity right down the gene pool, explicitly or tacitly. Momma was right "you can't fix stupid", but you can damn sure limit your interaction with it!

This is probably still the "worst" part of the country, still has the farthest to go and should continue to be held accountable. But to not recognize the gradual evolution and progress in society and broadly characterize "Southern-Americans" as little more than a bunch of racists Confederate Flag waving hicks is counter-productive in every sense of the world. And I am NOT accusing you have do that, just to be clear.

 

"White kids don’t get shot in the street by the police, black kids do" makes for a good poster at a march, but it's bollocks. Discussion for another time/day.

 

 

[Sibdane]

6 minutes ago, Ghoat said:

I couldn't agree more it's generation passed, ESPECIALLY in the Deep South, where you have spent a lot of time. I spent 3 years as a youth in Japan, where I was certainly a minority, I lived in Alaska 3 years, and I have traveled a good bit, but I was basically born and raised in Mississippi, and have grown up in Alabama. My great-grandmother used the terms "nigger woman" or "nigger man" to describe people - more as an adjective, not spat as an insult. She was born in rural Mississippi in 1915 or so, and lived there until she died in the 1990's. It was their world, and how they spoke, which explains it, with justifying or condoning it.  My grandmother I heard much less of that type language from. My Mom went to school during public school in Mississippi during the desegregation 1960's, I don't recall hearing that language from her. My wife and I have raised our daughters to be as color-blind as possible. Not all do, some pass the stupidity right down the gene pool, explicitly or tacitly. Momma was right "you can't fix stupid", but you can damn sure limit your interaction with it!

This is probably still the "worst" part of the country, still has the farthest to go and should continue to be held accountable. But to not recognize the gradual evolution and progress in society and broadly characterize "Southern-Americans" as little more than a bunch of racists Confederate Flag waving hicks is counter-productive in every sense of the world. And I am NOT accusing you have do that, just to be clear.

 

"White kids don’t get shot in the street by the police, black kids do" makes for a good poster at a march, but it's bollocks. Discussion for another time/day.

 

 

Agree with most of this, being from the South, but the part in bold isn't necessarily bollocks. There is definitely a disparity between the way whites and blacks are treated when it comes to the justice system here.

[Ghoat]

And Steve, just because I'm debating with you or disagreeing with you on something doesn't mean I don't appreciate the difference in perspective. You were looking at it from the outside, and have personal experience is here as well. I am right in the middle of it, but also have the perspective of having lived outside of it and having that perspective.

So whether I agree or not, doesn't mean that I don't genuinely appreciate your (any anyone else's) contribution in a civil discussion

[Ghoat]

9 minutes ago, Sibdane said:

There is definitely a disparity between the way whites and blacks are treated when it comes to the justice system here.

Totally agree. But that's MUCH broader - the entire criminal justice system, social economical realities, education, cultural and societal differences as well as racism.

But that's entirely different from the narrow suggestion that cops kill blacks kids in the street and don't kill white kids. That, as a stand alone statement, is bollocks.

[Sibdane]

6 minutes ago, Ghoat said:

Totally agree. But that's MUCH broader - the entire criminal justice system, social economical realities, education, cultural and societal differences as well as racism.

But that's entirely different from the narrow suggestion that cops kill blacks kids in the street and don't kill white kids. That, as a stand alone statement, is bollocks.

Fair enough.

[StevO]

1 hour ago, Ghoat said:

And Steve, just because I'm debating with you or disagreeing with you on something doesn't mean I don't appreciate the difference in perspective. You were looking at it from the outside, and have personal experience is here as well. I am right in the middle of it, but also have the perspective of having lived outside of it and having that perspective.

So whether I agree or not, doesn't mean that I don't genuinely appreciate your (any anyone else's) contribution in a civil discussion

Wouldn’t think anything else mate. We come here for debate and we only debate things we are passionate about. 
 

My mum went to school in Albany (I think it was Albany, she took my sister to see where she lived a few years back but I’ve never been). I love the south, the southern hospitality is something special, I went to Mrs Wilkes restaurant in Savannah last year and had one of the best meals I’ve ever had. I only get so frustrated about these issues because I care about the place so much. 
 

Four weeks today I fly to New York and then on to Atlantic City, but I’m expecting to see new things and new experiences there. 

[StevO]

1 hour ago, Ghoat said:

But that's entirely different from the narrow suggestion that cops kill blacks kids in the street and don't kill white kids. That, as a stand alone statement, is bollocks.

Again with the press the country gets, I can name black kids who have been killed in the street and police not charged with anything. I’m not aware of this happening to white kids, if it has it’s not been reported that I’ve seen. 

[Ghoat]

58 minutes ago, StevO said:

Again with the press the country gets, I can name black kids who have been killed in the street and police not charged with anything. I’m not aware of this happening to white kids, if it has it’s not been reported that I’ve seen. 

More so than any other demographic, I would say there is an inherent the distrust of police within the black community, regardless of the officer's color. I believe that is generally understood are police departments, and most or trying I need to continue to dry to reach out to the communities and improve relations. But by the same token those communities have to be willing to accept that effort, and do their part as well, even if 75% of the burden is on the police force, the community still has to do their 25% or it can never improve. 

You will have a community that has a high crime rate and demands something be done about it, and then often times when patrols increase it raises tensions and there are complaints in the same community about heavy police presence and arrests. People will not cooperate with the police - even when they match the community and are uneasy by their mere presence. 

When there is a fatal shooting by an officer in the line of duty, there is always an investigation. Actually if an officer even discharges his service weapon there is an investigation. I'm not foolish enough to assume that justice or the truth always comes out of these investigations, but there is really no other option then to let the process at least run. If the victim is white, or the officer is black, typically is that news, and the races might not even be mentioned initially unless something dodgy surfaces. But in cases where the officer is white and if the victim is black there can be racial assumption applied before there are any facts whatsoever which greatly complicates the process. 

Michael Brown, Ferguson Missouri. Initially reported as white cop gunning an unarmed black teen down in the street in broad daylight. The national rise to prominence of Black Lives Matter, "Hands up, Don't Shoot" chanted, on shirts and signs, the Ferguson Riots, as well as being a huge influencing factor on Colin Kaepernick's NFL protest come from this case, and primarily the initial reporting of this that became a worldwide sensation.

When you have the time read through this. There's a lot of information on the investigations the witnesses forensics etc. For more information then the media went back to cover or report after the new cycle was over, they were on two other news stories and other controversies.

I want even summarize it but if you're so inclined, read the evidence presented to investigators and draw your own conclusions.

And yes there other cases, and names that are familiar to us all, but this was probably the biggest.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shooting_of_Michael_Brown