milesey05 Posted May 21, 2016 Report Share Posted May 21, 2016 So after a season to forget where goals were conceded as easy as a whores draws are pulled down, it's evident changes are needed. Some goals conceded we can blame on individual errors, then others we can blame on lack of organisation. We all knew Roberto wasn't a fan of set pieces going forward as he craved the beautiful goal. It was his ignorance at the back or lack of work on the training ground that was frustrating. I've never seen an Everton defence so vulnerable when defending crosses into our box. Our keepers have to take part of this blame as Howard/ Robles wouldn't fill any defenders with confidence. So the obvious change for next season is back to basics and work on the training ground needed from a top defensive coach. My real question though guy's! If or when John Stones is sold in the summer how would you like our defence to look next season? We played 4 at the back with 2 in front and still couldn't stop the goals flying in. Although Stones is a top ( ball playing defender) he gets caught over playing. So I would like to see a no nonsense back 4 next season with no ball playing centre halves. Huth/ Morgan- just won the league. Cahill / Terry Pallister/ Bruce Keown/Adams Kompany/ Demichelis. I know titles have been won Ferdinand/ Stam but for me I would like to go back to basics. 2 centre halves that take everything including the kitchen sink when they win a ball. Any thoughts? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
c1982 Posted May 21, 2016 Report Share Posted May 21, 2016 A lot of our defensive problems have come from the coaching. Jags and Mori could easily be these no nonsense defenders - Jags proved to be under Moyes for many years. I'd argue Stones would look the player we all hope he'll be in a team coached not to mess about at the back. His class would still shine through as his long distribution and vision is excellent. MikeO and duncanmckenzieismagic 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nogs Posted May 21, 2016 Report Share Posted May 21, 2016 Think you make a good point about goalkeepers. A lot of comparisons keep getting made, rightly or wrongly, with this squad and the mid-80s side. What Kendall had to turn a bunch of lower-table scrappers into title winners was the best goalkeeper in the world - Southall was a genius, and with a real leader in Ratcliffe in front of him, defence was sorted. Fuck knows where we get a Southall from, but we need better than we've got. Stones will go, I've said it for months. I'm not bothered, I know full well he will go on to be a top player, but his heart isn't in it for us and he has become a liability with his mistakes. Go let him learn the hard way elsewhere. I wouldn't want to see us go mental signing defenders. Jags is still good enough, especially under a manager who knows how to defend, and I've just posted in the Mori thread that I reckon he deserves a chance. That's a pretty no-nonsense pair for you. I reckon Galloway and Pennington have shown enough to be back-ups. I'd maybe look at bringing in one older head to balance the youth alongside Jags experience. A Richard Gough would be nice... Full backs, well similar story really. Baines and Coleman were touted as best in the Prem three seasons ago, no reason why they shouldn't be again. I'd like to see Garbutt get a look, on the right Kenny and Connolly look promising. Oviedo can go for me, not a good enough defender. Priority has got to be a keeper for me. duncanmckenzieismagic 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Makis Posted May 21, 2016 Report Share Posted May 21, 2016 Impossible to speculate until we have an idea what style the new manager is looking to implement. For instance, Favre's CBs should have some pace or the defence will be horribly exposed. I do think we need to start looking for a Jagielka replacement. Baines is one my all time favourite players but I feel age is catching up to him, too. He seems to have lost some pace. Garbutt was crap at Fulham so I wouldn't necessarily place all my bets on him. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt Posted May 21, 2016 Report Share Posted May 21, 2016 There is no defence for last season... Seriously though, pretty much what I wanted to say has been said. We've got solid players who were coached to ignore their defensive instincts and it made them nervous and error prone. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pete0 Posted May 21, 2016 Report Share Posted May 21, 2016 Never mind the coaching, with a stronger captain you don't concede half of them goals. We don't have a winning mentality, even the goals we conceded under Moyes were weak. No shouting, no moaning, no responsibility. Roy Keane wasn't a great footballer, but shows how much you can make a difference with determination. We might have one of the best teams in the league, but after Villa we're the weakest mentally. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt Posted May 21, 2016 Report Share Posted May 21, 2016 Never mind the coaching, with a stronger captain you don't concede half of them goals. We don't have a winning mentality, even the goals we conceded under Moyes were weak. No shouting, no moaning, no responsibility. Roy Keane wasn't a great footballer, but shows how much you can make a difference with determination. We might have one of the best teams in the league, but after Villa we're the weakest mentally.how do you explain the goals shipped when Jags was out? You're as bad with Jags as Haf is with Lukaku. duncanmckenzieismagic 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
markjazzbassist Posted May 21, 2016 Report Share Posted May 21, 2016 how do you explain the goals shipped when Jags was out? You're as bad with Jags as Haf is with Lukaku. I think what Pete is saying is that with a proper goalie and defensive coach jags can be a very solid defender. Nothing special and not a great captain but solid and consistent. Without that he's less consistent and less solid and still not great of a captain. That's where our d was this year. Mori and stones both have more upside to jags and will most likely end up better players if they have a proper GK and defensive coach. Mori the only one of the 3 who could also be a solid captain with the passion and grit. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baba Posted May 21, 2016 Report Share Posted May 21, 2016 Stones handed in a request last season didn't he, or did that prove to be a rumour? If it is true, and I believe it to be, then we should be looking to move him on. Any player who wants to be elsewhere, Lukaku perhaps another example though he's not yet asked to leave, ought to be sold for the best price that can be had. I believe that no matter how good the player in question is, if that player doesn't want to be here then we'll never get the performance from them that they are capable of. I'd sell Stones to Chelsea if that's where he said he wanted to be, and spend the money on two good solid centre halves, with the reassurance that we have young promising players coming through for the longer term. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt Posted May 21, 2016 Report Share Posted May 21, 2016 I think what Pete is saying is that with a proper goalie and defensive coach jags can be a very solid defender. Nothing special and not a great captain but solid and consistent. Without that he's less consistent and less solid and still not great of a captain. That's where our d was this year. Mori and stones both have more upside to jags and will most likely end up better players if they have a proper GK and defensive coach. Mori the only one of the 3 who could also be a solid captain with the passion and grit. ptetty sure he was dismissing the coaching and there's no mention of a goal keeper? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pete0 Posted May 21, 2016 Report Share Posted May 21, 2016 how do you explain the goals shipped when Jags was out? You're as bad with Jags as Haf is with Lukaku.We're a better team without him. Concede slightly more, but get more points. I've only looked at the total stats upto the period Hietinga was here though, and not adjusted them for gelling time. Best period for our defense with Jags at the club had Yobo and Lescott paired together whilst Jags was injured. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Btay Posted May 21, 2016 Report Share Posted May 21, 2016 I think Mori is going to become a tidy tidy centre half for the premier league. For us I think plugging up RB is a bigger issue. Are we comfortable with relying on the youngsters to step in when needed if seamus is out. Do we look to a versitile player I.e Antonio Valencia who is a very capable RB and can do a job up the pitch. Time for Oviedo to move on I feel, love the bloke to bits but he's been poor and Galloway proved he can step in and Garbs looks to be about his level already. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
robertdrumm1954 Posted May 22, 2016 Report Share Posted May 22, 2016 We need defenders who can win balls in the air and pass the ball to the playmakers, simple as that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
smeghead1 Posted May 22, 2016 Report Share Posted May 22, 2016 I wouldn't personally want us to buy a whole new defence we've got Coleman, Connolly, Kenny and Browning who can play RB. CB we've got Stones(for now at least) Jags,Mori,Pennington, (Browning and Galloway are both centre halves but played at RB/LB for experience) At LB we've Baines,Garbutt,Oviedo and Galloway. What we really need is a defensive coach to show them all how to play explain its okay to hit a bloke in row Z when the pressure is on. As for set pieces if it's true Jones said they didn't bother practising them as you only had to defend them a few times a game I think we can see where our problems stem from. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FairWooney Posted May 27, 2016 Report Share Posted May 27, 2016 I agree. our defensive players are good, Jagielka is solid, knows how to make those last ditch challenges and plays pretty much like a classic English centre back. Stones took the Martinez desire for ball playing defenders too far at times last season which lead to too many errors when he needed to be thinking more about safety. Saw today how well he could defend while still showing class on the ball for England. Mori is a very decent centre back while Coleman and Baines do a great job as full backs and the youngsters look like excellent cover The only position that's a bit short is right back which could do with some cover for Coleman. As smeghead says they need coaching better and also better management to play in such a way that doesn't see them making so many errors and leaving so many holes. The only position along the back that would improve the team would be a new goalkeeper. Someone that instills confidence in the defence and communicates well with the back line. Hopefully that's a priority. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Romey 1878 Posted May 28, 2016 Report Share Posted May 28, 2016 The only position that's a bit short is right back which could do with some cover for Coleman. I think we more need to be looking at someone to replace Coleman myself, with Seamus becoming the cover. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MC11 Posted May 28, 2016 Report Share Posted May 28, 2016 Madness. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EFC-Paul Posted May 28, 2016 Report Share Posted May 28, 2016 (edited) I've always rated Jags but he's not getting any younger and I do think Mori and Stones together is to much of a liability as both like to play with a bit of freedom, I'd like us to spend a decent amount on a solid replacement for Jags to play alongside either of the above It's a shame we let Mustafi go he'd have been ideal, I agree on Coleman he at least needs competition Jammaat would be a good option A solid ready made CB and a RB are a must for me Baines is still great and hopefully Garbutt can get back to his pre injury form and push for a place Oviedo isn't a starter but a good back up utility man and hopefully Browning and Galloway can push on aswel Edited May 28, 2016 by EFC-Paul Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
markjazzbassist Posted May 28, 2016 Report Share Posted May 28, 2016 I think we more need to be looking at someone to replace Coleman myself, with Seamus becoming the cover. Agreed. I thought I was the only one that was tired of him not being able to cross and link up well. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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