MikeO Posted June 26, 2016 Report Share Posted June 26, 2016 I don't see how you can believe them when they are not in a position to make that decision though Mike. They aren't in a job that gives them the authority to do it. Me and you have as much power to make that happen as they do. If anyone believes they can make that happen from their position, yes, that makes them stupid IMO. Completely agree, so why did they claim it? So that people less savvy than you or I would buy into it and vote for them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StevO Posted June 26, 2016 Report Share Posted June 26, 2016 To be honest I always took it as why don't we spend it on NHS instead or EU, rather than we will spend it on that. I just find the kicking off over it astonishing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeO Posted June 26, 2016 Report Share Posted June 26, 2016 To be honest I always took it as why don't we spend it on NHS instead or EU, rather than we will spend it on that. I just find the kicking off over it astonishing. Because... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt Posted June 26, 2016 Report Share Posted June 26, 2016 Completely agree, so why did they claim it? So that people less savvy than you or I would buy into it and vote for them. they claimed it to sway votes with them knowing full well that 1) that's not what they were able/going to do and 2) betting on a large portion of the voting public not knowing they could do nothing about it but would react to somethings as precious as the NHS benefitting from Leave. It was a dirty trick, but it worked. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill Posted June 26, 2016 Report Share Posted June 26, 2016 I'm Sure both sides came up with dirty tricks, that's what politicians do. At the same time the statement in the banner was very misleading. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hafnia Posted June 26, 2016 Author Report Share Posted June 26, 2016 Because... This is the one that will really screw them. The NHS is something close to my heart... well when I say that it's not 'heart' as such... it's my mind really. 1. The staff who work for it aren't all the knights in shining armour. Many work at 150% and get burned out. A fair few work at 50% and do the crying that the ones working at 150% are too tired to do. Get matrons back in to the wards - old fashioned 'kick arse' "clean that! What do you call that?" Merchants. 2. Joe public needs to respect it. If someone decides go to A&E on a Friday afternoon because it's the easiest option for them to have something looked at that only needs a GP then charge them! Hospitals are being used like drop in centres because they are closer and easier for many.... wrong! Throwing money at the NHS will cure it to a degree but there is a culture amongst staff and patients that needs to change. Romey 1878 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Romey 1878 Posted June 26, 2016 Report Share Posted June 26, 2016 (edited) Won't make a blind bit of difference... https://petition.parliament.uk/petitions/131215 Quite pathetic really. We don't like democracy when we don't get the result we wanted. I'm pretty sure the remainers would all have been calling for this if they'd "won" the vote. Not. Edited June 26, 2016 by Romey 1878 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt Posted June 26, 2016 Report Share Posted June 26, 2016 (edited) Quite pathetic really. We don't like democracy when we don't get the result we wanted. I'm pretty sure the remainers would all have been calling for this if they'd "won" the vote. Not. calling for what? Edit: my bad, misread. No, we wouldn't but I wouldn't begrudge them for trying to get a more substantial percentage vote. Provided, of course, both sides could stop lying and tricking the public and actually deliver a solid case the second time around. Edited June 26, 2016 by Matt Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chach Posted June 26, 2016 Report Share Posted June 26, 2016 Quite pathetic really. We don't like democracy when we don't get the result we wanted. I'm pretty sure the remainers would all have been calling for this if they'd "won" the vote. Not. Would you have called it democracy if Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland had all voted to remain but the popular vote was still in leaves favour? That was possible and doesn't smell very democratic to me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeO Posted June 26, 2016 Report Share Posted June 26, 2016 http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-36633244 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Newty82 Posted June 26, 2016 Report Share Posted June 26, 2016 There is a reason why it's gone a bit quiet on the OUT side.... There's nothing left to say!!! But plenty of work to be done. All the noise is coming from 'remainers'. But it's mostly still doom and gloom. All very negative stuff. Plenty of media spins, misleading stories, picking apart of the OUT campaign. But let's be honest, it would have been exactly the same if it was an IN vote. That's how the media works! There is so many pathetic things going on out there, it's becoming an absolute embarrassment. But what next? Well, of corse 'Brexit' will be used by Political Parties as a convenient excuse for a number of things going wrong, namely a recession. However, a recession has been forecast since last year by financial experts based on the instability of emerging markets. The real factual info is out there if anyone can be arsed to look for it...and that's the problem. People see what the media say and take is as fact. Go look at the EU debt levels...EU blocs debt as % of GDP is 92%. And it's rising. There is real financial difficulty with the EU. EU countries are struggling to bring down debt levels. Unemployment in the EU is, overall, on the rise. Only the small fall in Germany rate and the quite large fall in the UK rate make it look a bit better than it actually is. The EU has needed a wake up call for a long time. It's gone in the wrong direction since the introduction of the Lisbon Treaty. Rising debts. Rising unemployment. Coincidence? I don't think so. It cannot continue the way it is. It has taken a wrong turn along the way. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Newty82 Posted June 26, 2016 Report Share Posted June 26, 2016 Would you have called it democracy if Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland had all voted to remain but the popular vote was still in leaves favour? That was possible and doesn't smell very democratic to me. If that had happened, it wouldn't have been in leaves favour. So we would have stayed in, so yes, that would be the democratic choice of the UK. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chach Posted June 26, 2016 Report Share Posted June 26, 2016 Yeah it could have easily happened, England has the population numbers. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt Posted June 26, 2016 Report Share Posted June 26, 2016 If that had happened, it wouldn't have been in leaves favour. So we would have stayed in, so yes, that would be the democratic choice of the UK. Of the UK yes, but if the majority are English and the other countries then suffer (not having their country represented) then I can see it. But, it's done now, unless the Scots cause trouble http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-36633244 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt Posted June 26, 2016 Report Share Posted June 26, 2016 As Romey mentioned earlier, and the only real benefit of all this that I can see, is there really is some big change within the parties. I don't think replacing people will make as big a difference as we want, because the flawed system is still going to remain, but its at least a start: http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-36632956 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Newty82 Posted June 26, 2016 Report Share Posted June 26, 2016 Yeah it could have easily happened, England has the population numbers. Dunno if your being sarcastic?! Only 1 million or so difference in the numbers, so yes, it could easily have happened. However...I must admit that from day 1 of the results I have felt some empathy towards those in Gibraltar, N.Ireland and Scotland whose majority was an IN vote. We have to ensure each country prospers now. Matt 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Romey 1878 Posted June 26, 2016 Report Share Posted June 26, 2016 Would you have called it democracy if Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland had all voted to remain but the popular vote was still in leaves favour? That was possible and doesn't smell very democratic to me. Look, the majority of voters voted that we would leave. It was a fair vote and that was the result. All this bellyaching is stupid. I fully expected a very close vote. However, I expected it to be in favour of the remain camp. And I would have just accepted it. I'm sure many leavers would have been pissed off about it and moaned about it in the same way the remainers have here, and I'd have thought they were pathetic for it too. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chach Posted June 26, 2016 Report Share Posted June 26, 2016 Dunno if your being sarcastic?! Only 1 million or so difference in the numbers, so yes, it could easily have happened. However...I must admit that from day 1 of the results I have felt some empathy towards those in Gibraltar, N.Ireland and Scotland whose majority was an IN vote. We have to ensure each country prospers now. I'm not being sarcastic at all, there was no requirement for a double majority which is absolutely incomprehensible. Even in the US presidential race you cant just win the big states, you need electoral college votes to make sure the small states are as influential as the big states. eg Hafs argument is that he wants British politicians to make the laws for British people, while English people have just decided that Scotland and N. Ireland is leaving the EU. Are you sensing any irony? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Newty82 Posted June 26, 2016 Report Share Posted June 26, 2016 eg Hafs argument is that he wants British politicians to make the laws for British people, while English people have just decided that Scotland and N. Ireland is leaving the EU. Are you sensing any irony? English people decided that Scotland and N.Ireland are leaving the EU?! That's a statement up there with everyone who voted OUT is thick, a bigot, a xenophobe, a racist. I'll tell you were I'm sensing some irony...an American saying such things. Haven't you got some issues of your own to sort out and vote on?!!! No offence there of course. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Newty82 Posted June 26, 2016 Report Share Posted June 26, 2016 As many logical heads thought, the petition thing is a load of bollocks. http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-eu-referendum-36634407 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johnh Posted June 26, 2016 Report Share Posted June 26, 2016 I'm not being sarcastic at all, there was no requirement for a double majority which is absolutely incomprehensible. Even in the US presidential race you cant just win the big states, you need electoral college votes to make sure the small states are as influential as the big states. eg Hafs argument is that he wants British politicians to make the laws for British people, while English people have just decided that Scotland and N. Ireland is leaving the EU. Are you sensing any irony? If there is any irony it is the fact that, in spite of achieving a significant degree of autonomy in recent years, Scotland appear willing to give up that independence by selling their soul to a sclerotic European Union who will micro manage their existence. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chach Posted June 26, 2016 Report Share Posted June 26, 2016 Now I'm not sure if you're being sarcastic now so I'll make it simple: Look at those numbers, its possible that 100% of Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland could have voted remain and if enough people in England voted leave, then leave it would be and you think that is democratic? Really? Try and actually answer the argument without resorting to ad hominem if you want ant credibility too. (born and bred in Sandbach, Cheshire) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chach Posted June 26, 2016 Report Share Posted June 26, 2016 If there is any irony it is the fact that, in spite of achieving a significant degree of autonomy in recent years, Scotland appear willing to give up that independence by selling their soul to a sclerotic European Union who will micro manage their existence. A straw man AND a slippery slope argument in one post. Top work big man! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johnh Posted June 26, 2016 Report Share Posted June 26, 2016 A straw man AND a slippery slope argument in one post. Top work big man! I don't think you really understood my post, in fact your response proves it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chach Posted June 26, 2016 Report Share Posted June 26, 2016 Ah, so when you think someone doesn't understand something you've said/posted your first instinct is condescension? Really, just top work. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johnh Posted June 26, 2016 Report Share Posted June 26, 2016 No, but when I post something I expect a sensible and well thought out response, not an insult. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chach Posted June 26, 2016 Report Share Posted June 26, 2016 My post was factual not an insult, you responded to something that wasn't being debated with something that at best is an opinion and with nothing to quantify it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Newty82 Posted June 26, 2016 Report Share Posted June 26, 2016 Now I'm not sure if you're being sarcastic now so I'll make it simple: Look at those numbers, its possible that 100% of Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland could have voted remain and if enough people in England voted leave, then leave it would be and you think that is democratic? Really? Try and actually answer the argument without resorting to ad hominem if you want ant credibility too. (born and bred in Sandbach, Cheshire) Oh come on, I'm not being ad hominem. I've no personal dislike towards you or anybody that I don't actually know. As for the argument...I know where your coming from. But it's an impossible argument. Because we vote as a UK. How many Scottish, Irish and Welsh are registered in England? Northern Ireland had one of the lowest vote turnouts. Key populated areas in Scotland also had some of the lower turnouts. If they want democracy, go and vote! Interestingly, it seems that us bad guy English have gazumped the Scottish and Irish again...last time, in 1975, the majority of Scottish and Irish wanted out of the European market. Following the majority vote worked that time, will it again? Full vote info and quite interesting... http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-36616028 By the way, I'm not after credibility. I'm just posting my thoughts like everyone else. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johnh Posted June 26, 2016 Report Share Posted June 26, 2016 My post was factual not an insult, you responded to something that wasn't being debated with something that at best is an opinion and with nothing to quantify it. A straw man? That is your interpretation of 'fact' is it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt Posted June 26, 2016 Report Share Posted June 26, 2016 If there is any irony it is the fact that, in spite of achieving a significant degree of autonomy in recent years, Scotland appear willing to give up that independence by selling their soul to a sclerotic European Union who will micro manage their existence. What independence? They already live that with the British government! I think the irony is this: Great Britain voted, not a country but an alliance (much like the EU in the most simple of terms) of countries. All these member countries of Great Britain vote to have the local MPs representing their interests in Parliment, where a handful of key members run the union; e.g. PM, Chanellor of the Exchequer, Education Ministors etc - none of which you vote for directly but are chosen by the party you choose. Much like how the EU members are elected (someone feel free to correct me). Now, Scotland (easiest example) as a country voted to remain by a much bigger margin, yet they're now forced to go with the union decision that they see as unfair, as they're now being dictated to by a corrupt union who don't pay them heed. It is not a democratic representation of their country. Any of this sound familiar? Anyone who thinks that's democratic is right in terms of 52% vs 48% but not in terms of actual democracy for the countries. I can't believe I'm saying this, but I would actually support Scottish independence now and they'd be well within their right. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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