Brexit...

[Palfy]

11 hours ago, Matt said:

I think he's working on the assumption that the 51% are a bunch of ignorant, xenophobes (which certainly is not the case) and looking over the pond to see how another pompous fuckwit with stupid hair managed to get success against the odds. 

I joked 2 years ago that we could have Trump and Boris, Dumb and Dumber, running two of the most powerful countries in the world. How the fuck this has even become a possibility is beyond me, and a clear sign as to how twisted the political systems and media propaganda machine truly are.

The thing is Matt when the populist feel hard done by or disinfranchised the far right nationalistic and borderline racist get stronger and preach the propaganda that populist want to hear. 

Hitler did it in the 30s Trumps done it now and Boris is trying different times maybe but still the same nationalistic rhetoric the Britain first campaigners want. 

[pete0]

All. Then foreigners coming over here and paying more taxes than we do 

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/eu-workers-uk-tax-treasury-brexit-migrants-british-citizens-a8542506.html?utm_campaign=Echobox&utm_medium=Social&utm_source=Facebook#Echobox=1537261486

[holystove]

Great blogpost; every word true.

https://mainlymacro.blogspot.com/2018/09/why-brexiters-look-defeated.html

[MikeO]

14 minutes ago, holystove said:

Great blogpost; every word true.

https://mainlymacro.blogspot.com/2018/09/why-brexiters-look-defeated.html

Do you know, I bet when she goes to bed at night Theresa secretly wishes she'd lost the last election.

[Palfy]

8 hours ago, MikeO said:

Do you know, I bet when she goes to bed at night Theresa secretly wishes she'd lost the last election.

So do I. 

[rubecula]

I really can not get my head around the way the entire episode is working out.  We voted to leave the EU so why are we still in it?  because there are people who want to make deals before we leave is why,  When we had the vote there was no mention of deals to be made and I personally assumed deals would be made afterwards (in my opinion a better scenario)  by making deals before we leav we are letting ourselves be right royally rogered by the EU Negotiators.

I can see why the folks who voted to remain did so now,  they must have foreseen this cock up.

 

[Matt]

4 hours ago, rubecula said:

I really can not get my head around the way the entire episode is working out.  We voted to leave the EU so why are we still in it?  because there are people who want to make deals before we leave is why,  When we had the vote there was no mention of deals to be made and I personally assumed deals would be made afterwards (in my opinion a better scenario)  by making deals before we leav we are letting ourselves be right royally rogered by the EU Negotiators.

I can see why the folks who voted to remain did so now,  they must have foreseen this cock up.

 

If you don’t make deals beforehand, the country would come to a standstill. It’s just basic project management to prepare for the cutover period, to not do it would be suicidal. 

[rubecula]

2 hours ago, Matt said:

If you don’t make deals beforehand, the country would come to a standstill. It’s just basic project management to prepare for the cutover period, to not do it would be suicidal. 

as opposed to what the government is doing now?

sorry Matt  just saying how I see it, not having a dig mate.

 

[MikeO]

12 minutes ago, rubecula said:

as opposed to what the government is doing now?

sorry Matt  just saying how I see it, not having a dig mate.

Simplified; you're an extremely rich person with multiple investments and property all over the World and fall out with your long term wife to the extent that a divorce is inevitable, one that could become extremely acrimonious because she believes she's played a big part in your success.

Do you negotiate a mutually agreeable settlement, however long it takes, before the official break or do you divorce and then see what happens?

[rubecula]

2 minutes ago, MikeO said:

Simplified; you're an extremely rich person with multiple investments and property all over the World and fall out with your long term wife to the extent that a divorce is inevitable, one that could become extremely acrimonious because she believes she's played a big part in your success.

Do you negotiate a mutually agreeable settlement, however long it takes, before the official break or do you divorce and then see what happens?

I understand your point Mike, I just can not equate your scenario with the brexit vote,  maybe I am wrong, but it is not a divorce in my mind, it is a separation. of sorts,  not a physical one either but of minds.

[Matt]

1 hour ago, rubecula said:

as opposed to what the government is doing now?

sorry Matt  just saying how I see it, not having a dig mate.

 

Didn’t think you were mate. Either way this whole thing was going to be a catastrophe, but leaving without anything in place cripples everything and, because people have very little patience, 3-4 weeks of even minor inconveniences alone would probably have people quickly regretting to vote leave, not to mention hostility it would create. A deal has to be made in order to make an awful decision only awful and not catastrophic. 

[rubecula]

1 minute ago, Matt said:

Didn’t think you were mate. Either way this whole thing was going to be a catastrophe, but leaving without anything in place cripples everything and, because people have very little patience, 3-4 weeks of even minor inconveniences alone would probably have people quickly regretting to vote leave, not to mention hostility it would create. A deal has to be made in order to make an awful decision only awful and not catastrophic. 

I agree with you mostly Matt.  just that I do not see the leave in the same light as you.  one of us must be wrong of course, let us all hope it is not me …  

[Matt]

1 hour ago, rubecula said:

I agree with you mostly Matt.  just that I do not see the leave in the same light as you.  one of us must be wrong of course, let us all hope it is not me …  

Well, I know it is so...  

if this is going ahead, the only way to limit the damage is to prepare for a scenario that’s never occurred. Just pushing ahead to show strength and dominance is pigheaded arrogance; just look across the pond and the stupid tariff setting (which Trump clearly has no idea about, its going to screw their economy after a short term, localised boost). 

[rubecula]

jesus man  don't bring the president Fart into this  ffs  What is wrong with you? 

[MikeO]

59 minutes ago, rubecula said:

jesus man  don't bring the president Fart into this  ffs  What is wrong with you? 

Sadly that man was voted in for the same reason Brexit won. It may be a hard pill to swallow, but nationalism is (in my opinion) was what the Trump supporters voted for just the same as the Brexiters. You voted for our Trump equivalent mate so you need to carry the can. 

 

[rubecula]

17 minutes ago, MikeO said:

Sadly that man was voted in for the same reason Brexit won. It may be a hard pill to swallow, but nationalism is (in my opinion) was what the Trump supporters voted for just the same as the Brexiters. You voted for our Trump equivalent mate so you need to carry the can. 

 

eh?  who?  never vote for Corbyn or Boris and nobody has voted for May

[Matt]

12 hours ago, rubecula said:

jesus man  don't bring the president Fart into this  ffs  What is wrong with you? 

Because the principals of both “democratic” results are very similar and achieved in very similar ways

[pete0]

A poll on a pro Nigel Farage page is in favour of staying in the EU. if those crazy mofos have changed their mind (seen the lies) surely most the of population has. 

https://m.facebook.com/story.php?story_fbid=2202705069947730&id=1558058864412357&refid=28&_ft_=qid.6604303863699965907%3Amf_story_key.-5707148951171499312%3Atop_level_post_id.905503536322218%3Acontent_owner_id_new.611740532365188%3Aoriginal_content_id.2202705069947730%3Apage_id.611740532365188%3Asrc.22%3Apage_insights.{"611740532365188"%3A{"role"%3A1%2C"page_id"%3A611740532365188%2C"post_context"%3A{"story_fbid"%3A905503536322218%2C"publish_time"%3A1537661352%2C"story_name"%3A"EntStatusCreationStory"%2C"object_fbtype"%3A266}%2C"actor_id"%3A611740532365188%2C"psn"%3A"EntStatusCreationStory"%2C"sl"%3A5%2C"dm"%3A{"isShare"%3A1%2C"originalPostOwnerID"%3A2202705069947730}%2C"targets"%3A[{"page_id"%3A611740532365188%2C"actor_id"%3A611740532365188%2C"role"%3A1%2C"post_id"%3A905503536322218%2C"share_id"%3A2202705069947730}]}%2C"1558058864412357"%3A{"page_id"%3A1558058864412357%2C"role"%3A1%2C"actor_id"%3A611740532365188%2C"psn"%3A"EntStatusCreationStory"%2C"attached_story"%3A{"role"%3A1%2C"page_id"%3A1558058864412357%2C"post_context"%3A{"story_fbid"%3A2202705069947730%2C"publish_time"%3A1537634881%2C"story_name"%3A"EntStatusCreationStory"%2C"object_fbtype"%3A266}%2C"actor_id"%3A1558058864412357%2C"psn"%3A"EntStatusCreationStory"%2C"sl"%3A5%2C"dm"%3A{"isShare"%3A0%2C"originalPostOwnerID"%3A0}}%2C"sl"%3A5%2C"dm"%3A{"isShare"%3A0%2C"originalPostOwnerID"%3A0}%2C"targets"%3A[{"page_id"%3A1558058864412357%2C"actor_id"%3A611740532365188%2C"role"%3A1%2C"post_id"%3A2202705069947730%2C"share_id"%3A0}]}}&__tn__=*s*sH-R

[holystove]

Disregard the title of this blogpost as it might be perceived as offensive. 

It is a great piece of analysis by former Cambridge Professor, shows UK academia is still top notch.

http://chrisgreybrexitblog.blogspot.com/2018/09/britain-is-humiliating-itself.html?spref=tw

[Palfy]

Theresa May is sticking to her guns on her chequers Brexit deal because I believe she knows it won't pass a Parliamentary vote, then when another deal or a no deal is struck goes wrong she will absolve herself from any blame.

The Tory infighting and posturing to be the next leader is taking this country to the brink of the biggest disaster since WW2, years ago the people would have risen against this sort of thing and the government would have been forced to step down, but now we are lambs to the slaughter with Brexiteers and Tory voters hiding in the shadows instead of standing up and saying we got it wrong for what ever reason.

I hope Labour has the conviction to fight for a 2nd referendum so we have a chance to save ourselves, and then the people can have the chance to right a wrong.

[Matt]

 

[holystove]

Ummm.. your foreign secretary just compared the EU to the Soviet Union in dealing with countries wanting to leave.

Wasn't he supposed to be a step up from Bojo?

EU has stated numerous times if you want to leave, then leave.  Problem is UK feels entitled to keep a bunch of advantages that are intrinsically linked to EU membership.

How is that USSR? Are there continental troops ready to invade London? 

When desperate for a deal, best not to insult.  If regular people in the EU start realizing this is the rethoric from the UK most senior diplomat they will turn against the UK and there will be electoral gain for politicians in member states that take a very hard line on brexit.

[johnh]

1 hour ago, holystove said:

Ummm.. your foreign secretary just compared the EU to the Soviet Union in dealing with countries wanting to leave.

Wasn't he supposed to be a step up from Bojo?

EU has stated numerous times if you want to leave, then leave.  Problem is UK feels entitled to keep a bunch of advantages that are intrinsically linked to EU membership.

How is that USSR? Are there continental troops ready to invade London? 

When desperate for a deal, best not to insult.  If regular people in the EU start realizing this is the rethoric from the UK most senior diplomat they will turn against the UK and there will be electoral gain for politicians in member states that take a very hard line on brexit.

So, what you are saying is that insults are the sole prerogative of the EU?

[holystove]

48 minutes ago, johnh said:

So, what you are saying is that insults are the sole prerogative of the EU?

Who has insulted the UK?

Surely you are not talking about the Instagram post of Tusk jokingly offering May a piece of cake "without cherries".  How does that compare to this?  

Just look at the reactions coming from Eastern European states expressing their deep discontent with Hunts' comments.  These people actually suffered under USSR regimes.

[holystove]

 

[Matt]

Taking tips from the tango monster over the pond I see 

[rubecula]

It seems strange to go away fpr a few weeks and to come back to the same old arguments.   ok  I am not going to join in any more as we have all made our points.  But before I vanish I want to point out something.  no matter what you think about brexit be it good or bad,  remember we are the first nation to leave,  so nobody can say what will happen   (they may believe what they say but a forecast is not a prediction)  so those who say it will be bad for us or those who say it will be good for us may very well be totally wrong.

[holystove]

8 hours ago, rubecula said:

It seems strange to go away fpr a few weeks and to come back to the same old arguments.   ok  I am not going to join in any more as we have all made our points.  But before I vanish I want to point out something.  no matter what you think about brexit be it good or bad,  remember we are the first nation to leave,  so nobody can say what will happen   (they may believe what they say but a forecast is not a prediction)  so those who say it will be bad for us or those who say it will be good for us may very well be totally wrong.

Pedantic me:  Greenland left the ECC in 1982  ...ever since then they have remained very close to the EU (and there is now talk of (re)joining)

It's an accepted fact the UK (and EU) will take an economic hit from the UK's decision to break trading relations.  However there are indeed other aspects (political, cultural, etc) to take into account that are inmpossible to predict.

Unrelated : this is ace 

 

[johnh]

I agree, he wasn't mocking May but he wasn't dancing either.  Just pissed out of his head as usual.

[holystove]

59 minutes ago, johnh said:

I agree, he wasn't mocking May but he wasn't dancing either.  Just pissed out of his head as usual.

I'm not his biggest fan but the man does have a sense of humour.  His little dance was obviously spur of the moment.

He wasn't mocking May, just the opening of her conference speech.  She should be glad he watched it.