Brexit...

[Matt]

1 minute ago, Romey 1878 said:

You don’t read this thread then? Because Mike posted them here  otherwise I wouldn’t know about them either. 

I read the thread, I don’t read the polls, no. 

[MikeO]

https://www.change.org/p/13408707/u/23059617?utm_medium=email&utm_source=petition_update&utm_campaign=386976&sfmc_tk=jfwfhELVybK8wRL42Kju%2fw3djbZKT7NzgKBm6Aj8Lf%2fP5HMG5DgBkGv%2bZnNzEKrD&j=386976&sfmc_sub=222326341&l=32_HTML&u=64753919&mid=7259882&jb=102

[Newty82]

On 25/07/2018 at 08:10, Matt said:

More a laugh of disbelief at the whole cluster fuck to be honest. 

It has been...just a bit!!!

[johnh]

Can't remember where I read it, on the internet somewhere.  It appears that a second referendum is a non-runner.  We leave  the EU in March and it appears that there isn'tt time for the legislation to be passed (or something).   This means that any future referendum would be on 're-joining'  the EU which is a completely different ballgame for obvious reasons.

[Newty82]

On 25/07/2018 at 07:45, Palfy said:

Define what you mean by good life, are you meaning morally, spiritually, wealthy or something else.

Crikey...have you been able to live what YOU consider a good life?!

Point I'm trying to get to, as I'm sure you know, is that during your lifetime both Labour and Cons have had a go at governing the UK, more so the latter. So has it made a noticeable difference?!

See I'm just 36 so I've been trying to think back to any significant difference in my adult life, and I'm struggling.

So I mean...I have no reason to pour scorn on one or the other. Hence I don't call anyone any insulting name for their choice of voting. Hence I stay open minded and will vote for who I see fit at that time. That's taking full advantage of our democracy in my eyes...the more we divide ourselves at citizens, the more we are distracted from what they are up to...and it works!!!

[MikeO]

On 24/07/2018 at 23:22, Newty82 said:

But this has been a hunch of mine that I've seen before. Generations are born into what to vote for. They vote a certain way because that's what they have heard from being a kid etc.

Missed that bit; my dad was a die hard Thatcherite,  mum was Labour to the core, I've never voted for either. Having said that I would vote Labour if it meant potentially keeping a Tory out and in the extremely unlikely scenario where voting Tory possibly kept out UKIP then I'd have to do that, but I'd feel very dirty.

Maybe I was born to be conflicted.

[johnh]

37 minutes ago, MikeO said:

Missed that bit; my dad was a die hard Thatcherite,  mum was Labour to the core, I've never voted for either. Having said that I would vote Labour if it meant potentially keeping a Tory out and in the extremely unlikely scenario where voting Tory possibly kept out UKIP then I'd have to do that, but I'd feel very dirty.

Maybe I was born to be conflicted.

Mike, what you haven't said is 'who did you actually vote for?'  My guess is - one of the following.

* The Communist Party of Great Britain

* The Monster Raving Loony party

[MikeO]

3 minutes ago, johnh said:

Mike, what you haven't said is 'who did you actually vote for?'  My guess is - one of the following.

* The Communist Party of Great Britain

* The Monster Raving Loony party

Never voted communist or loony but I have to admit I once voted for the sadly missed "All night party" in a local election once.

[Palfy]

28 minutes ago, Newty82 said:

Crikey...have you been able to live what YOU consider a good life?!

Point I'm trying to get to, as I'm sure you know, is that during your lifetime both Labour and Cons have had a go at governing the UK, more so the latter. So has it made a noticeable difference?!

See I'm just 36 so I've been trying to think back to any significant difference in my adult life, and I'm struggling.

So I mean...I have no reason to pour scorn on one or the other. Hence I don't call anyone any insulting name for their choice of voting. Hence I stay open minded and will vote for who I see fit at that time. That's taking full advantage of our democracy in my eyes...the more we divide ourselves at citizens, the more we are distracted from what they are up to...and it works!!!

Yes I have been able to live a good life, do I attribute that to a Labour government or a Conservative government not really more hardwork and a fair bit of luck. 

The hardest time in my life that I can remember is the late 1980s I was a self employed dry liner had not long bought a new house had 60,000 mortgage 3 young kids, then the recession hit my mortgage went from 500+ a month to 1,500+ a month and the work dried up. 

Had my mortgage with Nat West and I struggled to pay it had 3 months arrears got called into the local branch by the manager, who told me that paying my mortgage was more important than feeding my kids and wife, so I told him to basically do one and walked out. 

Now that was a Conservative government not that it really matters, but I thought that I would mention it because some take great delight in blaming Labour for the last world wide recession, to be honest the last recession didn’t affect me as you get older and more established I think you become more recession proof well I did. 

The recession of the late 80s hurt me because I was young and just starting out which makes you more vulnerable to market changes, that’s the one big reason why I voted remain because I know the young generation are going to pay heavily for the financial disaster this will bring about, and why would I want to destroy there future when to me I will not gain anything worth having by voting leave, I wish they hadn’t given the vote to anyone over 55 and that would have counted me out and they gave it to 16 year olds as well because it’s their generation that will pay the price not mine so it should have been their decision. 

[Matt]

https://www.bbc.com/news/44964521

[johnh]

1 hour ago, Palfy said:

Yes I have been able to live a good life, do I attribute that to a Labour government or a Conservative government not really more hardwork and a fair bit of luck. 

The hardest time in my life that I can remember is the late 1980s I was a self employed dry liner had not long bought a new house had 60,000 mortgage 3 young kids, then the recession hit my mortgage went from 500+ a month to 1,500+ a month and the work dried up. 

Had my mortgage with Nat West and I struggled to pay it had 3 months arrears got called into the local branch by the manager, who told me that paying my mortgage was more important than feeding my kids and wife, so I told him to basically do one and walked out. 

Now that was a Conservative government not that it really matters, but I thought that I would mention it because some take great delight in blaming Labour for the last world wide recession, to be honest the last recession didn’t affect me as you get older and more established I think you become more recession proof well I did. 

The recession of the late 80s hurt me because I was young and just starting out which makes you more vulnerable to market changes, that’s the one big reason why I voted remain because I know the young generation are going to pay heavily for the financial disaster this will bring about, and why would I want to destroy there future when to me I will not gain anything worth having by voting leave, I wish they hadn’t given the vote to anyone over 55 and that would have counted me out and they gave it to 16 year olds as well because it’s their generation that will pay the price not mine so it should have been their decision. 

Palfy, the risk of a financial disaster is far greater in the EU than a post Brexit UK.  If we had voted remain, it is highly likely that we would have joined the euro.  The euro is an extremely high risk currency as it was set up without the necessary checks and balances.  The main reason this was rushed through was that member states who adopted the euro would be tied in and find it almost impossible to leave.  There is a view in the financial press that the euro has used all its 'get out of jail' cards and cannot survive another recession.  Macron is dead right in his demands to sort this out but Merkel is against it, which means it wont happen.

 

[MikeO]

1 hour ago, Palfy said:

I was a self employed dry liner.......the work dried up.

I don't wish to be flippant but that's a bit ironic.

Sorry.

[Palfy]

18 minutes ago, MikeO said:

I don't wish to be flippant but that's a bit ironic.

Sorry.

 

[rubecula]

On ‎25‎/‎07‎/‎2018 at 07:32, Palfy said:

I think that old adage of it's between me and the ballot box, is a great excuse for people who are afraid to stand up and be counted.

Come on Rubes stand up mate

you really want to know? or do you need to know?

[rubecula]

2 hours ago, Matt said:

https://www.bbc.com/news/44964521

makes sense to me Matt.

[Palfy]

12 minutes ago, rubecula said:

you really want to know? or do you need to know?

No and no.

[rubecula]

fair enough I have never voted tory and recently I have not voted labour either,  

[Cornish Steve]

 

[Matt]

10 hours ago, johnh said:

Palfy, the risk of a financial disaster is far greater in the EU than a post Brexit UK.  If we had voted remain, it is highly likely that we would have joined the euro.  The euro is an extremely high risk currency as it was set up without the necessary checks and balances.  The main reason this was rushed through was that member states who adopted the euro would be tied in and find it almost impossible to leave.  There is a view in the financial press that the euro has used all its 'get out of jail' cards and cannot survive another recession.  Macron is dead right in his demands to sort this out but Merkel is against it, which means it wont happen.

 

How?! If we’d joined the Euro it’d be the strongest currency on the planet and we’d have the most influence on one of the worlds biggest economies. 

Instead, we going alone against this behemoth (which continues to grow and expand) and the other world economies. How is that less of a risk?! I think Leave overestimates thé strengths of GB; Britannia hasn’t ruled the waves for decades and it’s not going to change with this decision 

[Bailey]

17 hours ago, MikeO said:

Missed that bit; my dad was a die hard Thatcherite,  mum was Labour to the core, I've never voted for either. Having said that I would vote Labour if it meant potentially keeping a Tory out and in the extremely unlikely scenario where voting Tory possibly kept out UKIP then I'd have to do that, but I'd feel very dirty.

Maybe I was born to be conflicted.

What if the Tory MP was actually a better local councellor than the Labour MP? I guess the Tory would still be whipped and therefore forced to vote for Tory policies.

This is what I find difficult about party politics. MPs should always be free to vote how they want. I didnt elect a Tory/Labour/Lib Dem govt as such, I voted for my favourite local MP (which happens to be Labour ironically!). He should be free to either support or go against Corbyn as his party leader, and then May as PM based on the values he demonstrated when he was elected. MPs shouldnt have to resign everytime they dont want to support a policy, they are there for the people that elected them after all and should stand by them. 

[MikeO]

9 minutes ago, Bailey said:

What if the Tory MP was actually a better local councellor than the Labour MP? I guess the Tory would still be whipped and therefore forced to vote for Tory policies.

This is what I find difficult about party politics. MPs should always be free to vote how they want. I didnt elect a Tory/Labour/Lib Dem govt as such, I voted for my favourite local MP (which happens to be Labour ironically!). He should be free to either support or go against Corbyn as his party leader, and then May as PM based on the values he demonstrated when he was elected. MPs shouldnt have to resign everytime they dont want to support a policy, they are there for the people that elected them after all and should stand by them. 

Been saying that myself for decades, the idea of bringing 350/400 "intelligent" people together and them being forced to agree with each other on (virtually) everything is nonsensical.

[Bailey]

5 minutes ago, MikeO said:

Been saying that myself for decades, the idea of bringing 350/400 "intelligent" people together and them being forced to agree with each other on (virtually) everything is nonsensical.

Exactly. I always think that disagreements are a good thing as it means an idea can be improved. If the collective group of MPs all pass a motion by free will you would expect it to be a good decision for the country.

[johnh]

7 hours ago, Matt said:

How?! If we’d joined the Euro it’d be the strongest currency on the planet and we’d have the most influence on one of the worlds biggest economies. 

Instead, we going alone against this behemoth (which continues to grow and expand) and the other world economies. How is that less of a risk?! I think Leave overestimates thé strengths of GB; Britannia hasn’t ruled the waves for decades and it’s not going to change with this decision 

Matt, the EU were so anxious to implement the euro it wasn't done properly.  It still wouldn't be done properly even if we joined.  If you have got a house where the foundations  are built on sand and you then put a new roof on, then it may look nicer but the problem and risk are still there.  Been reading an article from the Financial Times (June) by Isabelle Mateos y Lago who is a senior manager in Black Rock. She addresses the issue of the changes Macron wants which Merkel doesn't. Her summary to the article is:

Europe in the past has leapt forward in response to crises.  But the next one may deal the killer blow. Failure to address this risk in time will place a significant risk premium of European assets in anticipation of the potential damage to come.  Prevention may seem costly but inaction would be more so.

As I said earlier, the financial risks are extremely high in the EU with not a lot of room to manoeuvre.  We,  on the other hand, are totally in control of both our currency and our economy.

[Matt]

Anxious? I saw it as a massive undertaking successfully implemented and shows no signs of going anywhere. With the EU expanding their deals, it’ll only be strengthened. Had we actually thought ahead, we would’ve jumped on the bandwagon early and helped steer the ship. 

[Palfy]

17 hours ago, rubecula said:

fair enough I have never voted tory and recently I have not voted labour either,  

[Palfy]

4 hours ago, MikeO said:

Been saying that myself for decades, the idea of bringing 350/400 "intelligent" people together and them being forced to agree with each other on (virtually) everything is nonsensical.

350/400 “intelligent” people are you having a laugh  

[MikeO]

1 hour ago, Palfy said:

350/400 “intelligent” people are you having a laugh  

Hence the inverted commas. 350/400 people taken out of Broadmoor and Rampton could do as they're told (given the right medication); I think Yes Minister had it right because the civil servants do all the work.

[holystove]

UK commentariat predicting the end of the EUR every other year is one of my favourite things.

To be honest, I think it more likely with a no-deal-brexit decimating the value of sterling, the UK using the EUR bottom up rather than the EUR to fail. Sort of like Kosovo and Montenegro.

[Palfy]

2 hours ago, MikeO said:

Hence the inverted commas. 350/400 people taken out of Broadmoor and Rampton could do as they're told (given the right medication); I think Yes Minister had it right because the civil servants do all the work.

I have always wondered if the Civil Service employees have to sign to say they have no allegiance to any party.

I can only imagine the fun you could have if you was a Labour supporter feeding misinformation to to someone like Boris, hold on to be fair I think that has already happened. 

[Chach]

"In the two years since the Leave campaign unexpectedly won, nobody, from the prime minister to Mr. Johnson to the Labour Party, has been able to come up with a plan for exiting the European Union that can satisfy both a majority in Parliament and the expectant public. Why? Because fulfilling the false promises peddled by Mr. Johnson during the campaign is impossible."

 

https://www.nytimes.com/2018/07/10/opinion/boris-johnson-resignation-brexit.html