Brexit...

[holystove]

23 hours ago, Palfy said:

The biggest problem with Brexit wasn't so much with the vote to leave it was with the incompetence of the conservative party to carry out a leave plan, not because of remainers but because of in house fighting between the conservative party, again conservatives have put themselves before the country once again this time the country will suffer for years to come.

It is brexit that is the problem, not the UK party that is 'negotiating' it. Actually I'm quite sure if Corbyn was in charge, Brexit would be an even bigger mess than it is now.

[Matt]

[rubecula]

6 hours ago, Matt said:

sorry Matt here are a few points bulletted there that I disagree with  quite strongly 

 

[Matt]

14 minutes ago, rubecula said:

sorry Matt here are a few points bulletted there that I disagree with  quite strongly 

 

For example?

[johnh]

Well concerning the 'foundation of peace',  where, since the second world war, has there been any risk of war between EU member states?  In the 'wide world' context, foundation of peace has been because of NATO.  

[Matt]

17 minutes ago, johnh said:

Well concerning the 'foundation of peace',  where, since the second world war, has there been any risk of war between EU member states?  In the 'wide world' context, foundation of peace has been because of NATO.  

Of which the EU is a big part of. So you’re just reinforcing the point. 

Also, the point is there’s been no risk of war because of the EU. 

Getting desperate there John, as well as failing in knitpicking...

[rubecula]

clear beaches is one,  we do that despite the EU not because of the EU  (I know this through personal experience.)

 

there are things on the list that I can remember being in place before the EU existed and things that the EU have had nothing to do with at all,  however I am not here to start a hard line argument with anyone I just want the entire brexit thing to be over with  I voted to leave as did the majority of those who voted (whatever reason they voted for it)  so lets get it done so we can vote on the success or failure of the leaving as soon as feasible  (or not as the case may be)

[Matt]

8 hours ago, rubecula said:

clear beaches is one,  we do that despite the EU not because of the EU  (I know this through personal experience.)

 

there are things on the list that I can remember being in place before the EU existed and things that the EU have had nothing to do with at all,  however I am not here to start a hard line argument with anyone I just want the entire brexit thing to be over with  I voted to leave as did the majority of those who voted (whatever reason they voted for it)  so lets get it done so we can vote on the success or failure of the leaving as soon as feasible  (or not as the case may be)

Incorrect, Rubes. The EU legislation meant that polluting the surrounding waters was illegal, and the directive is something the UK actually fought against. 

Im not here to argue either, but I will continue to debunk myths. I will also never accept to just push forward with a suicidal plan because millions of people were not informed enough by the politicians  and willfully mislead by those seeking to further their own career no matter the expense. 

[pete0]

8 hours ago, rubecula said:

clear beaches is one,  we do that despite the EU not because of the EU  (I know this through personal experience.)

 

there are things on the list that I can remember being in place before the EU existed and things that the EU have had nothing to do with at all,  however I am not here to start a hard line argument with anyone I just want the entire brexit thing to be over with  I voted to leave as did the majority of those who voted (whatever reason they voted for it)  so lets get it done so we can vote on the success or failure of the leaving as soon as feasible  (or not as the case may be)

The river Mersey was greeny/black and stank when I was growing up, I'm sure it was thanks to the EU that it got cleaned up. (Possibly capital of culture or the law Matt has mentioned I can't quite remember but I'm sure it was the EU) 

[pete0]

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/brexit-boris-johnson-nhs-bus-claim-350-million-fundraiser-campaign-prosecute-a8528886.html

Shocking that it takes a crowd fund. All them lot in parliament should be held by the conniving. 

[Matt]

37 minutes ago, pete0 said:

The river Mersey was greeny/black and stank when I was growing up, I'm sure it was thanks to the EU that it got cleaned up. (Possibly capital of culture or the law Matt has mentioned I can't quite remember but I'm sure it was the EU) 

The clean up started before the capital of culture input. It was started by Michael Hestletine who lead actions for change, including getting the EU to contribute to the project. The clean up was funded by the EU, private companies and the government. A great example of what working together can achieve. 

[pete0]

1 hour ago, Matt said:

The clean up started before the capital of culture input. It was started by Michael Hestletine who lead actions for change, including getting the EU to contribute to the project. The clean up was funded by the EU, private companies and the government. A great example of what working together can achieve. 

Cheers Matt. 

[rubecula]

nicely put Matt.

the Mersey really did need a clean up carried out with filth flowing down from Manchester and beyond to Liverpool Warrington and Widnes.  I remember the stench too….   however I also remember before the Eu had even formed working as the field officer for a volunteer group to tidy up rivers and beaches. 

[Matt]

10 minutes ago, rubecula said:

nicely put Matt.

the Mersey really did need a clean up carried out with filth flowing down from Manchester and beyond to Liverpool Warrington and Widnes.  I remember the stench too….   however I also remember before the Eu had even formed working as the field officer for a volunteer group to tidy up rivers and beaches. 

Aaah, you mean cleaning the shores? I understood the water quality, my bad. Very noble of you mate, we’re trying to do the same here  

[rubecula]

1 minute ago, Matt said:

Aaah, you mean cleaning the shores? I understood the water quality, my bad. Very noble of you mate, we’re trying to do the same here  

 I had to stop it back in the early 1980's I am sorry to say.  I enjoyed it though.

[pete0]

1 hour ago, rubecula said:

nicely put Matt.

the Mersey really did need a clean up carried out with filth flowing down from Manchester and beyond to Liverpool Warrington and Widnes.  I remember the stench too….   however I also remember before the Eu had even formed working as the field officer for a volunteer group to tidy up rivers and beaches. 

That sort of backs up the EU. Before they stepped in the UK wasn't paying anything to clean up and was reliant on the goodwill of yourself. 

[rubecula]

the volunteer have never been paid Pete  they still are not.

[Matt]

1 hour ago, rubecula said:

the volunteer have never been paid Pete  they still are not.

That was his point mate. 

[johnh]

18 hours ago, Matt said:

Of which the EU is a big part of. So you’re just reinforcing the point. 

Also, the point is there’s been no risk of war because of the EU. 

Getting desperate there John, as well as failing in knitpicking...

I'm not sure how big a part the EU plays in NATO (other than the UK).  Many EU member states don't pay their full whack, particularly Germany. I have no need to get desperate, I voted out and we are getting out.  It's the remoaners who are getting desperate.

[MikeO]

"Boris Johnson has attacked Theresa's May's Brexit plan, saying she had "wrapped a suicide vest" around the British constitution and "handed the detonator" to Brussels."

Just a thought (putting aside the crass tastelessness of the remark), if we've "handed the detonator" to Brussels then surely it's no longer a suicide vest.

[Matt]

56 minutes ago, johnh said:

I'm not sure how big a part the EU plays in NATO (other than the UK).  Many EU member states don't pay their full whack, particularly Germany. I have no need to get desperate, I voted out and we are getting out.  It's the remoaners who are getting desperate.

Desperate how?! Using facts and figures to try and prevent a disaster? Just common sense mate. 

Break down if NATO contributions is easy to find too:

https://money.cnn.com/2016/07/08/news/nato-summit-spending-countries/index.html

edit: Better link. Also, I’m not saying that the EU countries are excelling, because they’re not. But at the same time, they’re not doing nothing and the vast majority of NATO forces and funds are EU countries 

This is one point I actually had a tiny bit of agreement with Trump on for the record.  

[johnh]

On 09/09/2018 at 16:43, Matt said:

Desperate how?! Using facts and figures to try and prevent a disaster? Just common sense mate. 

Break down if NATO contributions is easy to find too:

https://money.cnn.com/2016/07/08/news/nato-summit-spending-countries/index.html

edit: Better link. Also, I’m not saying that the EU countries are excelling, because they’re not. But at the same time, they’re not doing nothing and the vast majority of NATO forces and funds are EU countries 

This is one point I actually had a tiny bit of agreement with Trump on for the record.  

Yeah Matt.  I found myself agreeing with Trump.  Weird feeling, didn't sleep well for several days.

[Matt]

43 minutes ago, johnh said:

Yeah Matt.  I found myself agreeing with Trump.  Weird feeling, didn't sleep well for several days.

I couldn't stop showering  

[rubecula]

8 minutes ago, Matt said:

I couldn't stop showering  

with a brillo?  

[holystove]

[Palfy]

Has Merkel intervened and told Barnier to cut the hard line with the deal for fear there will be a no deal, which would hurt the German economy more than most.

So it looks like we will get a deal that will leave us in a far worse position than if we stayed in, and as a remainer that is going to piss me off I'd prefer a no deal rather than be joined to the E.U with no say and a greater cost, what was the point and what in reality have we achieved.

[Bailey]

On 09/09/2018 at 15:53, MikeO said:

"Boris Johnson has attacked Theresa's May's Brexit plan, saying she had "wrapped a suicide vest" around the British constitution and "handed the detonator" to Brussels."

Just a thought (putting aside the crass tastelessness of the remark), if we've "handed the detonator" to Brussels then surely it's no longer a suicide vest.

I am surprised there hasn't been more comment about the language used by Johnson. He has specifically used the suicide vest analogy when he could have used many very different analogies. The other month we had the remarks about the burka and I am sure these themes will continue in the coming months. I used to think he was a harmless idiot but now I know more about it him I think he is a very calculated scumbag. He shouldn't have anything to do with English politics and certainly not have been a prominent member of the ruling party.

[Palfy]

6 hours ago, Bailey said:

I am surprised there hasn't been more comment about the language used by Johnson. He has specifically used the suicide vest analogy when he could have used many very different analogies. The other month we had the remarks about the burka and I am sure these themes will continue in the coming months. I used to think he was a harmless idiot but now I know more about it him I think he is a very calculated scumbag. He shouldn't have anything to do with English politics and certainly not have been a prominent member of the ruling party.

I think he is working on the basis that 51% of the British voters agree with him, and they are the Brexit voters after all they voted yes with him because they are in the same mind set.

He is just stoking up what is already ingrained in them, nationalism is rife around the western world it's what brought the likes of Trump to power and Boris is very aware of that and what he's doing, and if it borders on racism and xenophobia the more he will be acknowledged with certain voters mainly Brexiteers.

[Matt]

2 hours ago, Palfy said:

I think he is working on the basis that 51% of the British voters agree with him, and they are the Brexit voters after all they voted yes with him because they are in the same mind set.

He is just stoking up what is already ingrained in them, nationalism is rife around the western world it's what brought the likes of Trump to power and Boris is very aware of that and what he's doing, and if it borders on racism and xenophobia the more he will be acknowledged with certain voters mainly Brexiteers.

I think he's working on the assumption that the 51% are a bunch of ignorant, xenophobes (which certainly is not the case) and looking over the pond to see how another pompous fuckwit with stupid hair managed to get success against the odds. 

I joked 2 years ago that we could have Trump and Boris, Dumb and Dumber, running two of the most powerful countries in the world. How the fuck this has even become a possibility is beyond me, and a clear sign as to how twisted the political systems and media propaganda machine truly are.

[rubecula]

7 hours ago, Matt said:

I think he's working on the assumption that the 51% are a bunch of ignorant, xenophobes (which certainly is not the case) and looking over the pond to see how another pompous fuckwit with stupid hair managed to get success against the odds. 

I joked 2 years ago that we could have Trump and Boris, Dumb and Dumber, running two of the most powerful countries in the world. How the fuck this has even become a possibility is beyond me, and a clear sign as to how twisted the political systems and media propaganda machine truly are.

Never did I expect to see you say something in this thread I totally agree with Matt,  but you have me gobsmacked right now.  I could not have said it any better,