Brexit...

[Palfy]

26 minutes ago, MikeO said:

We'll call it Tom so the guards  Brexiteers won't know what we're talking about; I'll start on Dick in my garden when I get home, can someone with a big shovel volunteer to get Harry under way.

(Incidentally did you know that anyone who uttered the word "tunnel" in Stalag Luft III risked court-martial?)

[Matt]

11 hours ago, MikeO said:

 

Stubborn old man syndrome.

That’s scary though!

[rubecula]

16 hours ago, Matt said:

You’ve been consistent at least, but I still don’t understand why?

you do not follow my reasoning which is fair enough Matt as I honestly can not follow yours no matter how often you have tried to explain it to me.  I think it would be best for the sake of sanity to avoid trying to delve any deeper into our mutual disagreement on the subject.  No matter what we say we may both be disappointed by the outcome of Mrs  May and her government's handling of the leaving.

[Matt]

9 hours ago, rubecula said:

you do not follow my reasoning which is fair enough Matt as I honestly can not follow yours no matter how often you have tried to explain it to me.  I think it would be best for the sake of sanity to avoid trying to delve any deeper into our mutual disagreement on the subject.  No matter what we say we may both be disappointed by the outcome of Mrs  May and her government's handling of the leaving.

Don’t mean to be rude mate, but I don’t remember reading any reasoning. 

[rubecula]

15 hours ago, Matt said:

Don’t mean to be rude mate, but I don’t remember reading any reasoning. 

I was being polite Matt as I never was answered in what I asked.  but no matter I really do not want to argue on the subject.

[Matt]

13 hours ago, rubecula said:

I was being polite Matt as I never was answered in what I asked.  but no matter I really do not want to argue on the subject.

Which bit(s) did I not answer? This isn’t arguing mate, this is debate which is positive,

[markjazzbassist]

what position does this brexit lad play?  centre mid?

[johnh]

2 hours ago, markjazzbassist said:

what position does this brexit lad play?  centre mid?

Outside - right.

[Chach]

On 20/07/2018 at 05:44, rubecula said:

we may both be disappointed by the outcome of Mrs May and her government's handling of the leaving.

How do you think it could have been handled better/what did you expect to get out of the exit deal?

[Newty82]

23 hours ago, markjazzbassist said:

what position does this brexit lad play?  centre mid?

He's a good all rounder if played to his full potential.

But like any player, he's a fuckin nightmare if man managed poorly.

No wonder he's gone on strike just now.

[Palfy]

Watching the Andrew Marr show this morning and an interview with John Major on Brexit, I don’t normally like to admit that I agree with Tories but what he said was the most sense I’ve heard from anyone in along time, he wasn’t selling party politics he was being honest about where we are and where we could be heading. 

If you didn’t see it and you care about yourself and the future of your family and country, then I seriously think you should watch what he had to say. 

[MikeO]

3 hours ago, Palfy said:

Watching the Andrew Marr show this morning and an interview with John Major on Brexit, I don’t normally like to admit that I agree with Tories but what he said was the most sense I’ve heard from anyone in along time, he wasn’t selling party politics he was being honest about where we are and where we could be heading. 

If you didn’t see it and you care about yourself and the future of your family and country, then I seriously think you should watch what he had to say. 

Very interesting interview indeed; particularly liked the way he dismissed the slime that is Rees-Mogg almost as an aside.

[Palfy]

2 hours ago, MikeO said:

Very interesting interview indeed; particularly liked the way he dismissed the slime that is Rees-Mogg almost as an aside.

I liked the analogy he used when he said you wouldn’t agree  to buy a house if you didn’t no how much it cost, so when the true cost of a no deal or a deal Brexit is made clearer, we should have the opportunity to say if we want it or not or something along those lines. 

[Chach]

16 hours ago, Palfy said:

I liked the analogy he used when he said you wouldn’t agree  to buy a house if you didn’t no how much it cost

That's exactly what the UK did though.

 

[johnh]

Reminds me of when I voted for entry into the Common Market.  I didn't know that I would be voting for the bureaucratic monstrosity that it has become.

[MikeO]

32 minutes ago, johnh said:

Reminds me of when I voted for entry into the Common Market.  I didn't know that I would be voting for the bureaucratic monstrosity that it has become.

So you agree that now the goalposts have been fundamentally moved since the referendum there should be another vote then I expect; now that people are more au fait with the realities of the situation we can vote without listening to all the lies and fictions perpetrated in 2016.

I'd suggest we have one with no campaigning allowed, then nobody could break electoral rules either.

[holystove]

2 hours ago, johnh said:

Reminds me of when I voted for entry into the Common Market.  I didn't know that I would be voting for the bureaucratic monstrosity that it has become.

There are 32.000 eurocrats to regulate the entire EU. To prepare for a soft-ish Brexit the UK alone is already hiring 8.000 civil servants.

[johnh]

1 hour ago, holystove said:

There are 32.000 eurocrats to regulate the entire EU. To prepare for a soft-ish Brexit the UK alone is already hiring 8.000 civil servants.

They would nearly fill Goodsion Park though.    No, the 8,000 civil servants are to prepare for a hard Brexit.

[johnh]

3 hours ago, MikeO said:

So you agree that now the goalposts have been fundamentally moved since the referendum there should be another vote then I expect; now that people are more au fait with the realities of the situation we can vote without listening to all the lies and fictions perpetrated in 2016.

I'd suggest we have one with no campaigning allowed, then nobody could break electoral rules either.

The goalposts have moved a site more  in fifty odd years than in a couple of years.  In fact, the Brexit goalposts haven't been moved at all.  The referendum was about staying in or leaving the EU. Vote leave won, what has changed?   There has been a site more money spent on remaining than there ever was on leaving.   And as for all the lies and fictions perpetrated in 2016, didn't you read that Mark Carney, governor of the Bank of England has apologised for getting his 'project fear' forecasts so wrong.

[holystove]

19 minutes ago, johnh said:

They would nearly fill Goodsion Park though.    No, the 8,000 civil servants are to prepare for a hard Brexit.

I know The Telegraph wrote it is for in case of no-deal, but that is incorrect.  It was more accurately reported in The Independent (but I accept you will dispute that ).  Those 8.000 still imply participation in various EU agencies, per government policy.  To cope with no-deal you will need many more.  Ironically, there is no greater increase of red tape and bureaucracy in the history of mankind than Brexit.

Ofcourse Rees-Mogg has just made the point the benefits of Brexit might not be clear for 50 years, so all this short to medium stuff is not relevant to true believers.  Meanwhile his company opened up a second branch in the EU to escape the economic effects of Brexit.  You see it is not illegal to lie to voters but it is illegal to lie to shareholders.

[MikeO]

1 hour ago, johnh said:

The goalposts have moved a site more  in fifty odd years than in a couple of years.  In fact, the Brexit goalposts haven't been moved at all.  The referendum was about staying in or leaving the EU. Vote leave won, what has changed?   There has been a site more money spent on remaining than there ever was on leaving.   And as for all the lies and fictions perpetrated in 2016, didn't you read that Mark Carney, governor of the Bank of England has apologised for getting his 'project fear' forecasts so wrong.

We're never going to agree on this John. Certainly the goalposts moved in the previous fifty years but all of those moves were agreed by our elected representatives in government from whatever party because they agreed they were beneficial to the UK as the union evolved. Of course vote leave narrowly won but the reality of the change in what we're now facing has been seismic in the last two years, "Brexit means Brexit" is an infantile response to it (not that you've used the term); and I didn't suggest in my post that any side were more culpable of deceit than the other.

We're on the fast track to economic meltdown as it stands; you, me, Palfy and many of us will still be fine as will all the politicos on both sides but the poorest and the youngest in our country will suffer the consequences for decades. I'm glad I played no part in that and I'll carry on doing whatever I can to stop it happening.  

[Palfy]

19 minutes ago, MikeO said:

We're never going to agree on this John. Certainly the goalposts moved in the previous fifty years but all of those moves were agreed by our elected representatives in government from whatever party because they agreed they were beneficial to the UK as the union evolved. Of course vote leave narrowly won but the reality of the change in what we're now facing has been seismic in the last two years, "Brexit means Brexit" is an infantile response to it (not that you've used the term); and I didn't suggest in my post that any side were more culpable of deceit than the other.

We're on the fast track to economic meltdown as it stands; you, me, Palfy and many of us will still be fine as will all the politicos on both sides but the poorest and the youngest in our country will suffer the consequences for decades. I'm glad I played no part in that and I'll carry on doing whatever I can to stop it happening.  

And so will l do what I can to stop it happening, it’s fair to say financially I will be alright so I’m not so concerned about myself, but I have 3 children trying their hardest to make a life for themselves and their kids and to say they are concerned is an understatement. 

My eldest daughter runs the fraud department for a large financial company and she is really finding the strain of her job going to another EU country very hard, which she has been told will more than likely happen. 

I’ve never been an I’m alright Jack pull the ladder up and fuck everyone else sort of person, but I genuinely believe people who voted out are because I can see no good reason for doing so at the time, and what’s happening now and what the future is looking like is nothing completely nothing like the Brexit camp said it would be like. 

Newty you didn’t have to wait a week for my next rant just a day, as ranting goes I’m getting quite good at it if I say so myself. 

[Newty82]

11 hours ago, Palfy said:

 

Newty you didn’t have to wait a week for my next rant just a day, as ranting goes I’m getting quite good at it if I say so myself. 

Hahaha...I don't necessarily agree with all your points in these rants, whatever the topic, but you seem a good bloke so it's never anything personal. Although I hope most of us know that by now!!!

[mcirony]

I'll throw my two pennies into this absolute minefield of a thread: 

 

Alot of the terrible issues (child poverty/housing crisis/low wages - inflation/jobs/children centre closures/NHS underfunding) we face in our country have absolutely zip all to do with our relationship with the EU. People are pissed off with the EU 'beaurocracy' when in fact they should be pissed off with a system that was implemented in the 70s by our dear old Maggie. She single handedly transformed our political landscape from the Keynes inspired social democracy to full hilt neo-liberalism. Neo-liberalism will only ever favour the have's and not the have nots. The tories patronise people by saying "If you work hard you can succeed, be a go-getter, a self-starter...blah blah blah' It's all just a fucking mask for their paymasters to screw over working people. Thatcher dismantled the unions and huge working communities (I don't need to elaborate on this) - restricting workers rights which are currently pretty much only supported by EU regulations and the Human Rights Act. Thatcher wanted to make the NHS fully privatised/pay-for-service and was only stopped by more compassionate members of her own party. Neo-liberalism is cross party , Blair was the goddamn golden boy of neo-liberalism. It is the foremost politcal philosophy in Europe and the main reason why the EU is not serving all of it's people. 

 

Immigration is the by-product of a global economy that Thatcher ensured we would rely on by eradicating most of our industrial output. Ironically, the same THatcher suppporting right -wing voters are now voting to leave the EU because of issues such as immigration/jobs. Look at Germany, it hasn't lost it's industrial output/jobs because of the EU. We lost our output because of Tory policy - not the EU. Neo-liberalism is making the rich richer and the poor poorer and the bastards are so clever making sure that everyone/everything else is to blame that they are fucking laughing at us. The right-wing media/think tanks (owned by billionaires) are NOT on our side and if they pushed this whole brexit farce through. 

 

It's a fucking joke. People need to wake up and read some books/articles and notjust the mainstream media. 

 

 

and breathe.......

 

 

[Matt]

28 minutes ago, mcirony said:

I'll throw my two pennies into this absolute minefield of a thread: 

 

Alot of the terrible issues (child poverty/housing crisis/low wages - inflation/jobs/children centre closures/NHS underfunding) we face in our country have absolutely zip all to do with our relationship with the EU. People are pissed off with the EU 'beaurocracy' when in fact they should be pissed off with a system that was implemented in the 70s by our dear old Maggie. She single handedly transformed our political landscape from the Keynes inspired social democracy to full hilt neo-liberalism. Neo-liberalism will only ever favour the have's and not the have nots. The tories patronise people by saying "If you work hard you can succeed, be a go-getter, a self-starter...blah blah blah' It's all just a fucking mask for their paymasters to screw over working people. Thatcher dismantled the unions and huge working communities (I don't need to elaborate on this) - restricting workers rights which are currently pretty much only supported by EU regulations and the Human Rights Act. Thatcher wanted to make the NHS fully privatised/pay-for-service and was only stopped by more compassionate members of her own party. Neo-liberalism is cross party , Blair was the goddamn golden boy of neo-liberalism. It is the foremost politcal philosophy in Europe and the main reason why the EU is not serving all of it's people. 

 

Immigration is the by-product of a global economy that Thatcher ensured we would rely on by eradicating most of our industrial output. Ironically, the same THatcher suppporting right -wing voters are now voting to leave the EU because of issues such as immigration/jobs. Look at Germany, it hasn't lost it's industrial output/jobs because of the EU. We lost our output because of Tory policy - not the EU. Neo-liberalism is making the rich richer and the poor poorer and the bastards are so clever making sure that everyone/everything else is to blame that they are fucking laughing at us. The right-wing media/think tanks (owned by billionaires) are NOT on our side and if they pushed this whole brexit farce through. 

 

It's a fucking joke. People need to wake up and read some books/articles and notjust the mainstream media. 

 

 

and breathe.......

 

 

[Chach]

26 minutes ago, mcirony said:

I'll throw my two pennies into this absolute minefield of a thread: 

 

Alot of the terrible issues (child poverty/housing crisis/low wages - inflation/jobs/children centre closures/NHS underfunding) we face in our country have absolutely zip all to do with our relationship with the EU. People are pissed off with the EU 'beaurocracy' when in fact they should be pissed off with a system that was implemented in the 70s by our dear old Maggie. She single handedly transformed our political landscape from the Keynes inspired social democracy to full hilt neo-liberalism. Neo-liberalism will only ever favour the have's and not the have nots. The tories patronise people by saying "If you work hard you can succeed, be a go-getter, a self-starter...blah blah blah' It's all just a fucking mask for their paymasters to screw over working people. Thatcher dismantled the unions and huge working communities (I don't need to elaborate on this) - restricting workers rights which are currently pretty much only supported by EU regulations and the Human Rights Act. Thatcher wanted to make the NHS fully privatised/pay-for-service and was only stopped by more compassionate members of her own party. Neo-liberalism is cross party , Blair was the goddamn golden boy of neo-liberalism. It is the foremost politcal philosophy in Europe and the main reason why the EU is not serving all of it's people. 

 

Immigration is the by-product of a global economy that Thatcher ensured we would rely on by eradicating most of our industrial output. Ironically, the same THatcher suppporting right -wing voters are now voting to leave the EU because of issues such as immigration/jobs. Look at Germany, it hasn't lost it's industrial output/jobs because of the EU. We lost our output because of Tory policy - not the EU. Neo-liberalism is making the rich richer and the poor poorer and the bastards are so clever making sure that everyone/everything else is to blame that they are fucking laughing at us. The right-wing media/think tanks (owned by billionaires) are NOT on our side and if they pushed this whole brexit farce through. 

 

It's a fucking joke. People need to wake up and read some books/articles and notjust the mainstream media. 

 

 

and breathe.......

 

 

While I think you're maybe giving the Tories too much credit for the current situation, I listened to a podcast with political scientist Ian Bremmer and he made some similar points with regards to some sections of the community agreeing/voting for populists because they think the current system is rigged against them and they think blowing it up is the best thing for them.

I've linked just before for context, the Brexit talk starts about 31:30

 

 

[Bailey]

2 hours ago, mcirony said:

I'll throw my two pennies into this absolute minefield of a thread: 

 

Alot of the terrible issues (child poverty/housing crisis/low wages - inflation/jobs/children centre closures/NHS underfunding) we face in our country have absolutely zip all to do with our relationship with the EU. People are pissed off with the EU 'beaurocracy' when in fact they should be pissed off with a system that was implemented in the 70s by our dear old Maggie. She single handedly transformed our political landscape from the Keynes inspired social democracy to full hilt neo-liberalism. Neo-liberalism will only ever favour the have's and not the have nots. The tories patronise people by saying "If you work hard you can succeed, be a go-getter, a self-starter...blah blah blah' It's all just a fucking mask for their paymasters to screw over working people. Thatcher dismantled the unions and huge working communities (I don't need to elaborate on this) - restricting workers rights which are currently pretty much only supported by EU regulations and the Human Rights Act. Thatcher wanted to make the NHS fully privatised/pay-for-service and was only stopped by more compassionate members of her own party. Neo-liberalism is cross party , Blair was the goddamn golden boy of neo-liberalism. It is the foremost politcal philosophy in Europe and the main reason why the EU is not serving all of it's people. 

 

Immigration is the by-product of a global economy that Thatcher ensured we would rely on by eradicating most of our industrial output. Ironically, the same THatcher suppporting right -wing voters are now voting to leave the EU because of issues such as immigration/jobs. Look at Germany, it hasn't lost it's industrial output/jobs because of the EU. We lost our output because of Tory policy - not the EU. Neo-liberalism is making the rich richer and the poor poorer and the bastards are so clever making sure that everyone/everything else is to blame that they are fucking laughing at us. The right-wing media/think tanks (owned by billionaires) are NOT on our side and if they pushed this whole brexit farce through. 

 

It's a fucking joke. People need to wake up and read some books/articles and notjust the mainstream media. 

 

 

and breathe.......

 

 

I agree that the EU has little or no influence on the internal issues withim the UK, and if anything its continuee UK govts inability to comprehend the issues facing the country and dealing with them however what do you believe is the alternative to neo-liberalism?

I personally believe strongly that you should keep every penny you can in the pocket of the people and the govt should be there to supported by an "invisible hand" when required and not interefere. I don't think it is fair that the people who take risks, put themselves through Uni etc should be punished by additional (or excessive) taxes. People will ultimately make better choices with their money than the govt and the more people start businesses, develop new ideas, create jobs, improve their careers will ultimately end up putting more money into the economy which in turn allows govts to distribute those funds to where it is needed. That is the bigger issue in my opinion. 

The one thing I would say about a private NHS is that if it was completely privately owned you would see much improved facilities and service and it would be run on a fraction of the cost it is now. I am not advocating a private NHS, just merely highlighting how inefficient it is now and the Govt can pledge as much money as they want but it wont make a jot of difference. 

[nyblue23]

55 minutes ago, Bailey said:

I personally believe strongly that you should keep every penny you can in the pocket of the people and the govt should be there to supported by an "invisible hand" when required and not interefere. I don't think it is fair that the people who take risks, put themselves through Uni etc should be punished by additional (or excessive) taxes. People will ultimately make better choices with their money than the govt and the more people start businesses, develop new ideas, create jobs, improve their careers will ultimately end up putting more money into the economy which in turn allows govts to distribute those funds to where it is needed. That is the bigger issue in my opinion.

Two things here: People do not take risks and put themselves through university in a vacuum. Opportunity to do so doesn’t arise from a black hole. Poverty is a vicious cycle and permeates every bit of a child’s education, whether in my country or yours. Extra taxes are not a punishment. They should and can be a way of leveling the playing field for those who were not afforded the same opportunities at birth that many of us on this forum probably were.

Secondly, it is common knowledge that wealth, when distributed to the lower and middle classes, has a far greater effect on the economy than when distributed to the wealthy, who simply absorb extra money into their wealth.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.theguardian.com/business/2015/jun/04/better-economic-growth-when-wealth-distributed-to-poor-instead-of-rich

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.vox.com/platform/amp/policy-and-politics/2017/8/8/16112368/piketty-saez-zucman-income-growth-inequality-stagnation-chart

http://factmyth.com/factoids/people-with-more-money-save-more/

[Newty82]

Can I ask a genuine question...

I try my best not to be too left or too right, so I don't have any particular favoured party. Rather I've voted in the past based on what I feel is right at that time.

So why is it that the Tories are so bad for the UK? And if they are so bad, why have they had more time governing the UK than any other party?

[markjazzbassist]

9 minutes ago, Newty82 said:

Can I ask a genuine question...

I try my best not to be too left or too right, so I don't have any particular favoured party. Rather I've voted in the past based on what I feel is right at that time.

So why is it that the Tories are so bad for the UK? And if they are so bad, why have they had more time governing the UK than any other party?

same reason republicans always win, RICH OLD WHITE PEOPLE VOTE.  young people may be more apathetic to voting, the middle class and poor not able to take off or work or get transit to vote, same for minorities.

 

rich old white people?  they got all day every day to vote they ain't gotta work and if they do they got cushy jobs where they simply pop out for a half hour and vote.  bill the plumber doesn't have that luxury.