holystove Posted June 27, 2018 Report Share Posted June 27, 2018 28 minutes ago, johnh said: Hey Holy, where did you get that? It doesn't come out here 'till Friday! Twitter Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chach Posted June 27, 2018 Report Share Posted June 27, 2018 On 13/06/2018 at 02:57, johnh said: The fact is, that the need for austerity was solely due to the fact that Labour screwed the economy, On 13/06/2018 at 04:17, johnh said: Mike, have you been on the sauce? Can't think I have ever seen such an illogical post from you. I know I am a couple of weeks late but the irony of these two posts being made by the same poster a couple of hours apart is just too delicious to pass up. What ideology is this John? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Newty82 Posted June 27, 2018 Report Share Posted June 27, 2018 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johnh Posted June 27, 2018 Report Share Posted June 27, 2018 1 hour ago, Chach said: I know I am a couple of weeks late but the irony of these two posts being made by the same poster a couple of hours apart is just too delicious to pass up. What ideology is this John? I haven't even had a drink yet today Chach but I'm afraid the purpose of your post has left me totally confused. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chach Posted June 27, 2018 Report Share Posted June 27, 2018 2 minutes ago, johnh said: I haven't even had a drink yet today Chach but I'm afraid the purpose of your post has left me totally confused. Do you actually believe that "the need for austerity was solely due to the fact that Labour screwed the economy"? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ghoat Posted June 27, 2018 Report Share Posted June 27, 2018 14 minutes ago, Newty82 said: He just described the 2016 US Presidential election. The left has basically railed for the last 2 years that anyone who voted for Trump is stupid, racist, sexist, homophobic and angry - "Trumpkins". Do those people exist, sure. But like this bloke says, what really happened is Hillary Clinton/the DNC lost the debate and fell on her face. It happens. One candidate was almost royalty in the democratic party after 20+ years with varying degrees of successes and failures that seemingly though was entitled to the office due to tenure - basically "If you like we what did 1992-2000 and 2018-2016 then you have to vote for me" The other candidate said If you don't like what's going on, think politicians are out of touch and don't care about what the average American wants and needs, then don't vote for a politician, vote for me. "Make American Great Again" If you like the way were going, vote me. If you don't, vote me. It wasn't "enlightened compassionate intelligent people" vs "ignorant intolerant angry people". Just because it's simple to grasp and easy to repeat doesn't mean it's correct. Nor does it mean we who voted for "something different" are thrilled with the way it's all being done - but it doesn't make us horrible people. From an outsider, Brexit seems very similar (in the broadest terms). Status quo is easy, change is harder to implement and steer and upsets many apple carts and people. History will judge if "change" was the right course of the wrong course, but change is messy regardless of outcome. Newty82 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johnh Posted June 27, 2018 Report Share Posted June 27, 2018 Chach Every time Labour screw the economy there is always an excuse. Their ideology prevents them from taking appropriate action. Labour should have reacted to world events but 'borrow and spend' is the only tactic they have. Labours epitaph was left, in writing, in the Treasury. 'There is no money left'. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johnh Posted June 27, 2018 Report Share Posted June 27, 2018 21 hours ago, MikeO said: Agree completely, project fact is infinitely more scary, which is why all the Brexit big guns are running for cover. Then (all this aside) we have a half wit foreign sec running away from lying in front of the bulldozers for the new runway at Heathrow. How can anyone possibly put their trust in these people? Yes Mike, I agree. Boris Johnson is a prat and I am embarrassed that he is on our side as a 'leaver'. However, both leavers and remainers have the same problem, remainers have Tony Blair and I don't need to say any more. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chach Posted June 27, 2018 Report Share Posted June 27, 2018 4 hours ago, johnh said: Chach Every time Labour screw the economy there is always an excuse. Their ideology prevents them from taking appropriate action. Labour should have reacted to world events but 'borrow and spend' is the only tactic they have. Labours epitaph was left, in writing, in the Treasury. 'There is no money left'. The sad thing about your ideology is that it's made you so tribalistic that you are actually no use to any side of the debate, because you aren't capable of being dialectically honest. It is demonstrably true that Labour never caused the global financial crisis, and that it was the GFC that cause the subsequent collapse in government revenue, it is also demonstrably true that pretty much every centre right government in the developed world ended up copying the UK's response to the crisis and there's a good reason for that, because Keynesian economics is evidence based and their ideology did not prevent them from taking appropriate action. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johnh Posted June 28, 2018 Report Share Posted June 28, 2018 12 hours ago, Chach said: The sad thing about your ideology is that it's made you so tribalistic that you are actually no use to any side of the debate, because you aren't capable of being dialectically honest. It is demonstrably true that Labour never caused the global financial crisis, and that it was the GFC that cause the subsequent collapse in government revenue, it is also demonstrably true that pretty much every centre right government in the developed world ended up copying the UK's response to the crisis and there's a good reason for that, because Keynesian economics is evidence based and their ideology did not prevent them from taking appropriate action. It is also demonstrably true that Labour governments have screwed the economy (regardless of excuses) every time they have been in power. If you don't learn from history etc......... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chach Posted June 28, 2018 Report Share Posted June 28, 2018 7 minutes ago, johnh said: It is also demonstrably true that Labour governments have screwed the economy (regardless of excuses) every time they have been in power. If you don't learn from history etc......... No its not, correlation is not causation and its that kind of economic ignorance that has dumbed down mainstream political conversation to the point now that governments can't make good long term economic decisions. If you can demonstrate it go ahead, I won't hold any breath holding competitions on you doing so. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johnh Posted June 28, 2018 Report Share Posted June 28, 2018 16 hours ago, Chach said: The sad thing about your ideology is that it's made you so tribalistic that you are actually no use to any side of the debate, because you aren't capable of being dialectically honest. It is demonstrably true that Labour never caused the global financial crisis, and that it was the GFC that cause the subsequent collapse in government revenue, it is also demonstrably true that pretty much every centre right government in the developed world ended up copying the UK's response to the crisis and there's a good reason for that, because Keynesian economics is evidence based and their ideology did not prevent them from taking appropriate action. I found your first paragraph above interesting. You may have missed previous posts I have made but during my lifetime I have voted mainly Conservative (about 70% in General Elections but have also voted Labour in General Elections 30%). I make a point of analysing the quality of potential governments and their manifesto's. I then vote for who I think will do best for the country. For example, I thought the Major Conservative government was the worst Conservative government since the war and I voted for Blair (even though he lost). Considering your accusation that I am 'tribalistic', I would be interested in knowing what your voting patterns are in general elections. Perhaps you could let us know. Matt 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Palfy Posted June 28, 2018 Report Share Posted June 28, 2018 5 hours ago, johnh said: I found your first paragraph above interesting. You may have missed previous posts I have made but during my lifetime I have voted mainly Conservative (about 70% in General Elections but have also voted Labour in General Elections 30%). I make a point of analysing the quality of potential governments and their manifesto's. I then vote for who I think will do best for the country. For example, I thought the Major Conservative government was the worst Conservative government since the war and I voted for Blair (even though he lost). Considering your accusation that I am 'tribalistic', I would be interested in knowing what your voting patterns are in general elections. Perhaps you could let us know. What in the Conservative manifesto made you vote for them this and the last time, and be careful what you choose John on the basis that they have back tracked and failed to meet their promises on their manifesto on more occasions than any other party in power, basically incompetent or liars your choice. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chach Posted June 29, 2018 Report Share Posted June 29, 2018 9 hours ago, johnh said: I found your first paragraph above interesting. You may have missed previous posts I have made but during my lifetime I have voted mainly Conservative (about 70% in General Elections but have also voted Labour in General Elections 30%). I make a point of analysing the quality of potential governments and their manifesto's. I then vote for who I think will do best for the country. For example, I thought the Major Conservative government was the worst Conservative government since the war and I voted for Blair (even though he lost). Considering your accusation that I am 'tribalistic', I would be interested in knowing what your voting patterns are in general elections. Perhaps you could let us know. I'm a swinging voter (I haven't voted in the UK since 2000, living in Oz), there's so little difference between conservative and traditional "centre left" parties now fiscally, that I tend to vote based on what I consider to be important social issues at the time, that said I am pretty disenfranchised with mainstream politics which is why I get so triggered with baseless comments like austerity is Labour's fault. Happy to admit there are times when everything is ticking along and a conservative government "minding the store" can be the safest option. Anyway, nice deflection I think you might have gotten away with it Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rubecula Posted June 29, 2018 Report Share Posted June 29, 2018 On 27/06/2018 at 12:54, Newty82 said: I wish I had had the literacy to say this at the start, it is EXACTLY what I was thinking. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
holystove Posted June 29, 2018 Report Share Posted June 29, 2018 I think both sides agree with this guy. https://streamable.com/5csxj Matt 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EFC-Paul Posted June 29, 2018 Report Share Posted June 29, 2018 2 hours ago, holystove said: I think both sides agree with this guy. https://streamable.com/5csxj Hes right but that's three complete twats sorry actually four including Reid sat together Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
holystove Posted July 4, 2018 Report Share Posted July 4, 2018 https://www.bbc.com/news/amp/uk-politics-44704561? If this was in any third world country, I'm sure the English commentariat would be talking about sending in international inspectors. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johnh Posted July 4, 2018 Report Share Posted July 4, 2018 5 hours ago, holystove said: https://www.bbc.com/news/amp/uk-politics-44704561? If this was in any third world country, I'm sure the English commentariat would be talking about sending in international inspectors. Pales into insignificance compared to the 10m the government spent on its 'vote remain' leaflet posted to every front door. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chach Posted July 4, 2018 Report Share Posted July 4, 2018 10 minutes ago, johnh said: Pales into insignificance compared to the 10m the government spent on its 'vote remain' leaflet posted to every front door. My bet is the civil servants who handled the government campaign would have been well across electoral law and on the right side of it. Please keep the whataboutery to a minimum Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
holystove Posted July 5, 2018 Report Share Posted July 5, 2018 https://wingsoverscotland.com/the-divided-kingdom/ what do you think? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt Posted July 5, 2018 Report Share Posted July 5, 2018 Don’t see why they shouldn’t have the same treatment. They’re an independent country who voted to remain in the EU, that should be respected. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt Posted July 5, 2018 Report Share Posted July 5, 2018 https://www.bbc.com/news/business-44719656 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
holystove Posted July 5, 2018 Report Share Posted July 5, 2018 7 hours ago, Matt said: Don’t see why they shouldn’t have the same treatment. They’re an independent country who voted to remain in the EU, that should be respected. I think it is an interesting idea. Border England - Scotland is a lot shorter than NI - ROI, plus there are no troubles on that border (so no Good Friday Agreement). Obvious downside is a border inside the UK but there might be one in the Irish Sea anyway. The Brexiteers believe "maximum facilitation" and technology can make a border invisible, so they can prove it on a border inside the UK. Matt 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bailey Posted July 6, 2018 Report Share Posted July 6, 2018 In reality why does the border really need to change? If NI and ROI are both happy with the current arrangement, there is no physical reason why things have to change, only political ones. I presume immigration is the main issue and I am not sure what identification checks take place at ports/airports. I think its simply a form of photo ID which should prove rigourous enough? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
holystove Posted July 7, 2018 Report Share Posted July 7, 2018 15 hours ago, Bailey said: In reality why does the border really need to change? The UK wants to have the ability to make its own rules and no longer accept the jurisdiction of the European Court of Justice. This means that: - a good produced in the UK will be up to different standards than EU - the UK wont accept rulings by the ECJ on these standards So the only way for the EU to know goods that enter the Single Market are up to EU standards is to check them at the border. This is a simplified example only about goods, but I think it illustrates the issue. Matt 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bailey Posted July 7, 2018 Report Share Posted July 7, 2018 5 hours ago, holystove said: The UK wants to have the ability to make its own rules and no longer accept the jurisdiction of the European Court of Justice. This means that: - a good produced in the UK will be up to different standards than EU - the UK wont accept rulings by the ECJ on these standards So the only way for the EU to know goods that enter the Single Market are up to EU standards is to check them at the border. This is a simplified example only about goods, but I think it illustrates the issue. If ROI was happy to accept products to what will be the UK standard (which less face it isnt going to be a poor one), then we could have a different agreement with them inside the EU. It wont happen but it would save God knows how much time and money. Interestingly though I watched a Twitter video of an MP (or whip) explaining the different types of border inspection for a particular type of food (livestock fresh and frozen). The main border points we use now with the EU dont have the inspection facilities required to allow them to cross the border under certain other world regulations (EAA?) And therefore other ports would need to be used but as they are smaller it would require more development or a restriction in the amount of goods that could pass (ie resulting in shortages). Its this type of information that needed to be considered before a decision was made to leave the EU because it all sounds like far more hassle than its worth! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bailey Posted July 7, 2018 Report Share Posted July 7, 2018 Its also yet another reason why the vote shouldnt have been offered to the people. Matt and MikeO 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johnh Posted July 7, 2018 Report Share Posted July 7, 2018 1 hour ago, Bailey said: Its also yet another reason why the vote shouldnt have been offered to the people. Eh? I know, lets ban general elections because the Ruskies keep interfering. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bailey Posted July 7, 2018 Report Share Posted July 7, 2018 3 hours ago, johnh said: Eh? I know, lets ban general elections because the Ruskies keep interfering. Do you not think its a bit too complex of a decision to be made by the general public on the back of very little actual information/evidence of what is involved? Im all for govt gauging general opinion on issues but not a binding decision on a very complex matter. Matt 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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