Brexit...

[rubecula]

I think there is a big difference in one way  ….  Trump can be pushed to the vote again and when he is gone, he is gone.  If Mrs May is voted out of office it changes nothing over here.  If you remember,  Cameron was PM at the time of the referendum,  he then resigned and left it all to whoever took over.

[johnh]

19 hours ago, MikeO said:

Mrs May two years ago...

"So, if we do vote to leave the European Union, we risk bringing the development of the single market to a halt, we risk a loss of investors and businesses to remaining EU member states driven by discriminatory EU policies, and we risk going backwards when it comes to international trade."

Today...

 "Today's votes show people in the UK, and to the EU, that the elected representatives in this country are getting on with the job, and delivering on the will of the British people."

How can someone so fundamentally opposed to a course of action be left in charge of it? 

What she said two years ago was most likely written by the arch Liberal David Cameron and she delivered it 'under orders'.

[MikeO]

19 minutes ago, johnh said:

What she said two years ago was most likely written by the arch Liberal David Cameron and she delivered it 'under orders'.

[Matt]

6 hours ago, rubecula said:

I think it is fair to say that Most folks on here are remainers (want to stay as part of the EU)  so it is possible you may see some of them having a go at me for voting to leave the EU which I freely admit to.  Basically just watch this space.  The subject is very emotive over here.  The Remainers want to throw out the results of the referendum and do it all again until they get the result they want,  The Leavers (Brexiteers) want to shut up shop and barricade themselves in...….  no none of that is true but the more aggressive posters of either persuasion would have you thinking so.  Personal insults may be thrown about and some more acerbic sarcasm may come to the fore, so for your own mental health  do not express an opinion 

Apart from that enjoy the show,  I can not think of anything I have missed out 

Wasn't this the second referendum on the topic after the first was overwhelmingly remain? 

edit: I've still not heard about my permit being renewed despite applying early to renew. Runs out in August, and then I honestly have no idea whether I can live here or in Europe without going through a new application

[Palfy]

27 minutes ago, Matt said:

Wasn't this the second referendum on the topic after the first was overwhelmingly remain? 

edit: I've still not heard about my permit being renewed despite applying early to renew. Runs out in August, and then I honestly have no idea whether I can live here or in Europe without going through a new application

Matt didn't you get excepted as a Swiss national or am I thinking of someone else.

[rubecula]

1 hour ago, Matt said:

Wasn't this the second referendum on the topic after the first was overwhelmingly remain? 

edit: I've still not heard about my permit being renewed despite applying early to renew. Runs out in August, and then I honestly have no idea whether I can live here or in Europe without going through a new application

Matt I have no idea on the second referendum  I have only voted once myself.

[holystove]

The will of the people is a tricky argument.  Latest Survation Poll:

— Referendum on final deal: 48% yes / 25% no — A no deal Brexit would be: 47% Bad / 32% good — Soft Brexit 43% / hard Brexit 37% — Remain 53% / Leave 47%

I realise polling is often very wrong so I would disregard the Remain-Leave difference (basically country still split down the middle), but the spread on referendum on final deal (+23% for final say) is very big.   

Also, much credit to the right wing press and the Jacob Rees Moggs of this world for still having 32% of the British populace believe a no-deal-brexit is preferable. 

[MikeO]

11 hours ago, rubecula said:

Matt I have no idea on the second referendum  I have only voted once myself.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Kingdom_European_Communities_membership_referendum,_1975

[johnh]

14 hours ago, Matt said:

Wasn't this the second referendum on the topic after the first was overwhelmingly remain? 

edit: I've still not heard about my permit being renewed despite applying early to renew. Runs out in August, and then I honestly have no idea whether I can live here or in Europe without going through a new application

Matt, hope your situation gets sorted asap.  However, odd that this problem is in the Brexit thread.  I didn't think Switzerland was in the EU?  In any event, any problems of this nature within the EU are purely down to the EU.  The UK have announced that 4 million EU citizens will be handed fast-track settlement post-Brexit.   This has been announced despite the EU refusing to offer a blanket amnesty to British citizens.

[holystove]

2 hours ago, johnh said:

Matt, hope your situation gets sorted asap.  However, odd that this problem is in the Brexit thread.  I didn't think Switzerland was in the EU?  In any event, any problems of this nature within the EU are purely down to the EU.  The UK have announced that 4 million EU citizens will be handed fast-track settlement post-Brexit.   This has been announced despite the EU refusing to offer a blanket amnesty to British citizens.

Ofcouse this belongs in this thread.  Matt had the right to work in Switzerland thanks to his EU citizenship.  Now that a voting majority in the UK has decided he should loose that citizenship, he loses his right to work there. 

I think the issue the EU still have with the British guarantee of settlement for EU citizens is the fact they have to pay 70£ (?) per person.

 

[rubecula]

Mike rhat was in 1975 and was to join.  Matt said a second referendum to stay in.  Matt if the EU play fair you will be fine mate  just as EU citizens will be ok in UK, but it will depend on Junker I think.  (I am not sure how the EU  are thinking anymore …. but that is nothing unusual to me   )

[Matt]

6 hours ago, holystove said:

Ofcouse this belongs in this thread.  Matt had the right to work in Switzerland thanks to his EU citizenship.  Now that a voting majority in the UK has decided he should loose that citizenship, he loses his right to work there. 

I think the issue the EU still have with the British guarantee of settlement for EU citizens is the fact they have to pay 70£ (?) per person.

 

John, this sums it up. 

5 minutes ago, rubecula said:

Mike rhat was in 1975 and was to join.  Matt said a second referendum to stay in.  Matt if the EU play fair you will be fine mate  just as EU citizens will be ok in UK, but it will depend on Junker I think.  (I am not sure how the EU  are thinking anymore …. but that is nothing unusual to me   )

I trust the EU a lot more than I do the UK government who denied me a vote on the whole thing because I don’t live there

[MikeO]

54 minutes ago, rubecula said:

Mike rhat was in 1975 and was to join.  Matt said a second referendum to stay in.  Matt if the EU play fair you will be fine mate  just as EU citizens will be ok in UK, but it will depend on Junker I think.  (I am not sure how the EU  are thinking anymore …. but that is nothing unusual to me   )

Go in/stay in what's the difference? Majority wanted to join in 1975 but because the goalposts were moved we got another (advisory) shout in 2016, because people said it had become something we'd not signed up for. Since 2016 the goalposts have again been moved and it's become obvious that leaving is not actually going to be what people voted for.

There's a difference in timescales for sure but your assertion that the PM has to follow the will of the people surely means that Cameron shouldn't have called 2016 because the people had already spoken so must be obeyed. You can't have it both ways, "....we'll forget that referendum now because things have changed since then but we have to stick to this one even though things have changed since then."

 

[MikeO]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-44582831

[rubecula]

2 hours ago, MikeO said:

Go in/stay in what's the difference? Majority wanted to join in 1975 but because the goalposts were moved we got another (advisory) shout in 2016, because people said it had become something we'd not signed up for. Since 2016 the goalposts have again been moved and it's become obvious that leaving is not actually going to be what people voted for.

There's a difference in timescales for sure but your assertion that the PM has to follow the will of the people surely means that Cameron shouldn't have called 2016 because the people had already spoken so must be obeyed. You can't have it both ways, "....we'll forget that referendum now because things have changed since then but we have to stick to this one even though things have changed since then."

 

the difference was one was the common market and one was the political union,  don't misunderstand me  the common market is a great idea but political union of such diverse people is a bit like what happened to Serbia, Bosnia, Croatia and so on to form Jugoslavia,  it  didn't work for them and it could never work for us,  not yet anyway,  maybe in another 500 years,  yes I know you would be willing to give it a go but there are many who could not and would not.  In my defence though if we are to have a presidential head of state.  I want to have a say on who  and not have a person I have never heard of foisted on me without any means of getting rid of him/her.   I hope you can understand this  as Matt and I really do disagree on this point,  he says Junker is democratically elected by the people,  I say he is not.  and that sort of explains my position in a nutshell.

[Palfy]

5 hours ago, rubecula said:

the difference was one was the common market and one was the political union,  don't misunderstand me  the common market is a great idea but political union of such diverse people is a bit like what happened to Serbia, Bosnia, Croatia and so on to form Jugoslavia,  it  didn't work for them and it could never work for us,  not yet anyway,  maybe in another 500 years,  yes I know you would be willing to give it a go but there are many who could not and would not.  In my defence though if we are to have a presidential head of state.  I want to have a say on who  and not have a person I have never heard of foisted on me without any means of getting rid of him/her.   I hope you can understand this  as Matt and I really do disagree on this point,  he says Junker is democratically elected by the people,  I say he is not.  and that sort of explains my position in a nutshell.

No body on here voted for May but she is our prime minister I never heard anyone say that's not right I voted for Cameron to be prime minister and leader of the Conservative party, and now he's left I want another vote.

So how was May democratically elected she wasn't her party was and in the same way that's how the union decides in who is president and the E.U was voted for by the people in a referendum as a union of country's working together and that is what it does, it's not a separate state or country as some Brexiteers would have you believe, it is a union based primarily on trade and human rights for the people in countries with in the union, what's so wrong with that.

[MikeO]

4 hours ago, Palfy said:

No body on here voted for May

John did.

[rubecula]

5 hours ago, Palfy said:

No body on here voted for May but she is our prime minister I never heard anyone say that's not right I voted for Cameron to be prime minister and leader of the Conservative party, and now he's left I want another vote.

So how was May democratically elected she wasn't her party was and in the same way that's how the union decides in who is president and the E.U was voted for by the people in a referendum as a union of country's working together and that is what it does, it's not a separate state or country as some Brexiteers would have you believe, it is a union based primarily on trade and human rights for the people in countries with in the union, what's so wrong with that.

If we wanted to vote the tories out we could do that,  but nobody has yet explained what party is in power in the EU.  besides May is a PM and Junker is a head of state, a president.  I have no objection to human rights  I just want our nation to be able to self rule and so I voted against a forced dictatorship as I saw it to be.  by the way  I have no idea how you voted for Cameron to be our prime minister,  I have only found it possible to vote a party into power.  I assume that the people who voted in the referendum for the Union were all in Europe as we have not ever had a referendum like that in the UK, if we had done so and the vote had been to be a part of the Union I would have accepted that as democratic  even if I didn't like the idea.  why everyone else on here seems to be arguing for the referendum we had to be re run because they do not like the results is possibly the worst sense of unbalanced bias I have heard from any one in these forums since I joined.  I will not post in this thread anymore  you are entitled to you opinion and so am I so that is how I will leave it.

[Palfy]

3 hours ago, rubecula said:

If we wanted to vote the tories out we could do that,  but nobody has yet explained what party is in power in the EU.  besides May is a PM and Junker is a head of state, a president.  I have no objection to human rights  I just want our nation to be able to self rule and so I voted against a forced dictatorship as I saw it to be.  by the way  I have no idea how you voted for Cameron to be our prime minister,  I have only found it possible to vote a party into power.  I assume that the people who voted in the referendum for the Union were all in Europe as we have not ever had a referendum like that in the UK, if we had done so and the vote had been to be a part of the Union I would have accepted that as democratic  even if I didn't like the idea.  why everyone else on here seems to be arguing for the referendum we had to be re run because they do not like the results is possibly the worst sense of unbalanced bias I have heard from any one in these forums since I joined.  I will not post in this thread anymore  you are entitled to you opinion and so am I so that is how I will leave it.

Rubes there is no dictatorship in the EU forced or otherwise no one person or country dictates to another and every country has the power to veto any policy that union wants to implement, so unless everyone agrees it doesn’t happen how is that a dictatorship you have either been misled by Boris and his cronies or your using dictatorship purely for effect to had weight to your argument, and I dare say it’s that sort of inaccurate scaremongering that has led us to were we are now. 

[holystove]

7 hours ago, rubecula said:

If we wanted to vote the tories out we could do that,  but nobody has yet explained what party is in power in the EU.  besides May is a PM and Junker is a head of state, a president.  I have no objection to human rights  I just want our nation to be able to self rule and so I voted against a forced dictatorship as I saw it to be.  by the way  I have no idea how you voted for Cameron to be our prime minister,  I have only found it possible to vote a party into power.  I assume that the people who voted in the referendum for the Union were all in Europe as we have not ever had a referendum like that in the UK, if we had done so and the vote had been to be a part of the Union I would have accepted that as democratic  even if I didn't like the idea.  why everyone else on here seems to be arguing for the referendum we had to be re run because they do not like the results is possibly the worst sense of unbalanced bias I have heard from any one in these forums since I joined.  I will not post in this thread anymore  you are entitled to you opinion and so am I so that is how I will leave it.

This has been explained to you at least five times in this thread alone.

Also Juncker is not a head of state, come on now Rubes.. its been two years already.

[johnh]

15 hours ago, Palfy said:

No body on here voted for May but she is our prime minister I never heard anyone say that's not right I voted for Cameron to be prime minister and leader of the Conservative party, and now he's left I want another vote.

So how was May democratically elected she wasn't her party was and in the same way that's how the union decides in who is president and the E.U was voted for by the people in a referendum as a union of country's working together and that is what it does, it's not a separate state or country as some Brexiteers would have you believe, it is a union based primarily on trade and human rights for the people in countries with in the union, what's so wrong with that.

Theresa May is the constituency MP for Windsor & Maidenhead. She was voted in at the last General Election.

[Palfy]

17 minutes ago, johnh said:

Theresa May is the constituency MP for Windsor & Maidenhead. She was voted in at the last General Election.

Hopefully they've learned a hard lesson and they won't make the same mistake again.

[holystove]

Interesting briefing for the new US ambassador to the UK.  An outside view on Brexit.

[Ghoat]

 This is the US Embassador to UK. Who was that, and what was the context? Johnson is pretty pro-Brexit I believe

https://www.radiotimes.com/news/tv/2018-06-25/inside-the-embassy-channel-4-usa-embassy-ambassador-to-the-uk/

 

[holystove]

Yes he is a Trumper and thus pro-Brexit.  His team of Embassy officials in UK seem less convinced.

[johnh]

18 minutes ago, holystove said:

Yes he is a Trumper and thus pro-Brexit.  His team of Embassy officials in UK seem less convinced.

Yeah, most likely made a lot of remainer friends.  Just more project fear. You would think they would have more to concern themselves with at the moment.

[MikeO]

14 minutes ago, johnh said:

Yeah, most likely made a lot of remainer friends.  Just more project fear. You would think they would have more to concern themselves with at the moment.

Agree completely, project fact is infinitely more scary, which is why all the Brexit big guns are running for cover. 

Then (all this aside) we have a half wit foreign sec running away from lying in front of the bulldozers for the new runway at Heathrow. How can anyone possibly put their trust in these people?

[Palfy]

1 hour ago, johnh said:

Yeah, most likely made a lot of remainer friends.  Just more project fear. You would think they would have more to concern themselves with at the moment.

Project reality is starting show how wrong the Brexit voters where and how they were blinded by Boris and Co's fools gold.

Project fear do me a favour John surely the most hardened out voter can't honestly believe that, for Christ sake even the people who run the out campaign are starting to distance themselves from there actions.

[holystove]

11 hours ago, MikeO said:

Agree completely, project fact is infinitely more scary, which is why all the Brexit big guns are running for cover. 

Then (all this aside) we have a half wit foreign sec running away from lying in front of the bulldozers for the new runway at Heathrow. How can anyone possibly put their trust in these people?

[johnh]

2 hours ago, holystove said:

Hey Holy, where did you get that?  It doesn't come out here 'till Friday!