Brexit...

[MikeO]

Just now, Bailey said:

Do you not think its a bit too complex of a decision to be made by the general public on the back of very little actual information/evidence of what is involved? 

Im all for govt gauging general opinion on issues but not a binding decision on a very complex matter.

Agree completely, other than the fact that it was never a binding decision.

[johnh]

31 minutes ago, Bailey said:

Do you not think its a bit too complex of a decision to be made by the general public on the back of very little actual information/evidence of what is involved? 

Im all for govt gauging general opinion on issues but not a binding decision on a very complex matter.

No.  The vote was about leaving or remaining in the EU. If there are complications from leaving then we work through them.  Nothing would ever happen if people gave up because of problems and difficulties.

[Matt]

36 minutes ago, johnh said:

No.  The vote was about leaving or remaining in the EU. If there are complications from leaving then we work through them.  Nothing would ever happen if people gave up because of problems and difficulties.

If had just been a question, I’d completely agree. But it wasn’t “just a question”, it was a decision to make for the generations to come which seemingly no one was informed well enough to make either way.

Mind you...Even now, the people in charge have no clue what to do, which is terrifying. 

[Bailey]

15 hours ago, MikeO said:

Agree completely, other than the fact that it was never a binding decision.

No it wasnt binding but it was sold in a way that meant the govt couldnt really change their mind. Like Matt says it wasnt a question to guage general consensus, months and months of debating, campaigning, smearing etc were all done. It felt bigger then the GE before it. 

15 hours ago, johnh said:

No.  The vote was about leaving or remaining in the EU. If there are complications from leaving then we work through them.  Nothing would ever happen if people gave up because of problems and difficulties.

Complications is an understatement though. We have set a date to exit and it would seem that most of it will be a fly by the seat of your pants job because the true impact doesnt seem to have been considered by the govt before asking the question of the public.

14 hours ago, Matt said:

If had just been a question, I’d completely agree. But it wasn’t “just a question”, it was a decision to make for the generations to come which seemingly no one was informed well enough to make either way.

Mind you...Even now, the people in charge have no clue what to do, which is terrifying. 

Agreed.

[Palfy]

15 hours ago, johnh said:

No.  The vote was about leaving or remaining in the EU. If there are complications from leaving then we work through them.  Nothing would ever happen if people gave up because of problems and difficulties.

If only it was that easy, this government can't agree on anything to do with leaving and still can't tell the E.U what they want and don't want, what they have proven is that they are not fit for purpose when it comes to negotiating a deal with the E.U when they can't even agree between themselves what to put on the table.

They have wasted nearly two years with bickering backstabbing and infighting, the right thing for this government to do is to resign with a vote of no confidence, this is the biggest thing this country as faced since probably WW2 when it comes to what effect it will have on the people and country as a whole, so let's get the right people in place to put a package together that we can start negotiating with, otherwise it will be taken out of our own hands.

[johnh]

2 hours ago, Palfy said:

If only it was that easy, this government can't agree on anything to do with leaving and still can't tell the E.U what they want and don't want, what they have proven is that they are not fit for purpose when it comes to negotiating a deal with the E.U when they can't even agree between themselves what to put on the table.

They have wasted nearly two years with bickering backstabbing and infighting, the right thing for this government to do is to resign with a vote of no confidence, this is the biggest thing this country as faced since probably WW2 when it comes to what effect it will have on the people and country as a whole, so let's get the right people in place to put a package together that we can start negotiating with, otherwise it will be taken out of our own hands.

'Lets get the right people in place'.   But who, though.  The Labour position on Brexit is even more confused than the Tories.

[Palfy]

1 hour ago, johnh said:

'Lets get the right people in place'.   But who, though.  The Labour position on Brexit is even more confused than the Tories.

Maybe so but the Labour leader isn’t scared to fight his position in the party even if it means upsetting his cabinet, May is an absolute joke as a leader she lacks any backbone or conviction of her own beliefs, and has allowed the public school hoorays  who have nothing in common with the average person in the street to dictate policy that suits there own needs.

John if that’s where you see yourself and you believe you have more in common with them, then good luck to you mate because your going to need it. 

[johnh]

2 hours ago, Palfy said:

Maybe so but the Labour leader isn’t scared to fight his position in the party even if it means upsetting his cabinet, May is an absolute joke as a leader she lacks any backbone or conviction of her own beliefs, and has allowed the public school hoorays  who have nothing in common with the average person in the street to dictate policy that suits there own needs.

John if that’s where you see yourself and you believe you have more in common with them, then good luck to you mate because your going to need it. 

Palfy,  sometimes in life you have to choose between the lesser of two evils.  There is no way I could run with Corbyn and the rabble of ultra left wingers who surround him.  As for the Liberals and UKIP well, there is no more to say.   Unfortunately, there are no outstanding politicians anywhere  at a time when they are desperately needed. We just have to make do with what we've got.

[MikeO]

Trump has rubbed off on her, she might as well say, "make the UK great again"....

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/av/uk-politics-44753145/theresa-may-we-will-bring-an-end-to-free-movement

I'd rather look at the wider picture myself and look at what's good for the human race as a whole; hate the "We're OK so screw the rest of you as you weren't born on our bit of rock" attitude.

[Matt]

5 hours ago, johnh said:

'Lets get the right people in place'.   But who, though.  The Labour position on Brexit is even more confused than the Tories.

That’s kind of my point; the people that started this shitshow didn’t know what they were doing, and it’s only gotten worse since then. It’s got nothing to do with which party, it’s all to do that none of those involved are competent enough to proceed. That’s down to the people who vote these numpties into power, no EU to blame this time. 

[Matt]

40 minutes ago, MikeO said:

Trump has rubbed off on her, she might as well say, "make the UK great again"....

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/av/uk-politics-44753145/theresa-may-we-will-bring-an-end-to-free-movement

I'd rather look at the wider picture myself and look at what's good for the human race as a whole; hate the "We're OK so screw the rest of you as you weren't born on our bit of rock" attitude.

We already have control ffs!

[johnh]

56 minutes ago, MikeO said:

Trump has rubbed off on her, she might as well say, "make the UK great again"....

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/av/uk-politics-44753145/theresa-may-we-will-bring-an-end-to-free-movement

I'd rather look at the wider picture myself and look at what's good for the human race as a whole; hate the "We're OK so screw the rest of you as you weren't born on our bit of rock" attitude.

Mike, you are in favour of the helicopter drop then?

[MikeO]

10 minutes ago, johnh said:

Mike, you are in favour of the helicopter drop then?

You've lost me John.

[Bailey]

9 hours ago, Palfy said:

If only it was that easy, this government can't agree on anything to do with leaving and still can't tell the E.U what they want and don't want, what they have proven is that they are not fit for purpose when it comes to negotiating a deal with the E.U when they can't even agree between themselves what to put on the table.

They have wasted nearly two years with bickering backstabbing and infighting, the right thing for this government to do is to resign with a vote of no confidence, this is the biggest thing this country as faced since probably WW2 when it comes to what effect it will have on the people and country as a whole, so let's get the right people in place to put a package together that we can start negotiating with, otherwise it will be taken out of our own hands.

 

7 hours ago, johnh said:

'Lets get the right people in place'.   But who, though.  The Labour position on Brexit is even more confused than the Tories.

John is right here because there is no clear opinion on either side about what they want and how they want to do it. Like the NHS there should be a cross party coalition to make such important decisions but even if a cabinet across the parties was announced, they wouldnt be able to put the country first and make the decisions required.

 

[Palfy]

1 hour ago, Bailey said:

 

John is right here because there is no clear opinion on either side about what they want and how they want to do it. Like the NHS there should be a cross party coalition to make such important decisions but even if a cabinet across the parties was announced, they wouldnt be able to put the country first and make the decisions required.

 

If that’s the case then the  government should abandon leaving the EU because they can’t deliver the right deal for the country and the generation that never had a say but will have to live and and pay for their incompetent handling of putting a credible deal together. 

And in ten years re-run the vote and you will find that most of 75+ who voted out would no longer be round to ruin the future of the young as they did this time. 

But don’t just leave without a deal that is right just because you believe that’s what people wanted, the people should have the right to have a say on the fuck up that is happening before it is signed. 

[Bailey]

1 hour ago, Palfy said:

If that’s the case then the  government should abandon leaving the EU because they can’t deliver the right deal for the country and the generation that never had a say but will have to live and and pay for their incompetent handling of putting a credible deal together. 

And in ten years re-run the vote and you will find that most of 75+ who voted out would no longer be round to ruin the future of the young as they did this time. 

But don’t just leave without a deal that is right just because you believe that’s what people wanted, the people should have the right to have a say on the fuck up that is happening before it is signed. 

I agree with the first point. To me it seems we are horribly unprepared and we also seem to be heading towards an agreement where we are basically in the EU (or as close to it as we can be) but without any power or influence, and at a cost to the country. 

I have not hidden my theological perspective on leaving the EU however I dont see how it can be done and the more I see and hear, the more I am concerned by what is going to happen. There is no consensus in the goverment over what they want and there is no consensus in the opposition. Significant numbers of firing and resigning ministers is no good to a democratic country because it means voices arent being heard. 

This latest Govt 'plan' also sounds like the opposite of what we should be setting out to achieve. I am also sceptical as to whether the Govt ministers 'backing' this plan are doing it because they believe in it or whether they are thinking of their careers instead. 

[Matt]

https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-44770847

The clown and Davis gone in quick succession, incredible! At the same time, I'm worried who will replace them 

[MikeO]

9 minutes ago, Matt said:

https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-44770847

The clown and Davis gone in quick succession, incredible! At the same time, I'm worried who will replace them 

[Matt]

https://www.libdems.org.uk/exit-brexit

A power-grab attempt, no doubt, but something that should still be seriously considered before taking the big decision.

[Bailey]

2 hours ago, Matt said:

https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-44770847

The clown and Davis gone in quick succession, incredible! At the same time, I'm worried who will replace them 

Its a start but then other clowns have been brought into replace them, well Raab in Davis' case. 

[holystove]

 

[Newty82]

I've stayed away from all this because the majority of attitudes from both far left and far right absolutely boil my piss.

The way people have acted towards each other for having differing views has been an eye opener. I suppose this is the downside to having what we call a democratic society. People are free to spout absolute shit at each other.

But what has been more of an eye opener is the way in which people in the positions of power and influence have gone about this Brexit business. I'm convinced that most have gone about it with nothing but intent to raise their own profile and prospects.

The whole thing has been a shocker. From start to now, and no one party, MP, MEP, Lord or whatever is coming out of it smelling of roses. Or at least very few are.

At any level, it seems we just are not capable of pulling off such a big move. Because to make it work would need complete unity. For starters, we ain't designed for the unity that would be required and then, of course, the system is set up to make sure that such unity can never take hold anyway!

I'm so frustrated now. It's all an absolute shambles.

It's why a long time ago I gave up on it and decided to just live life and not worry about things out of my control. We may have been allowed a vote, but that's as much control as we are allowed to have.

[Bailey]

Boris' resignation letter is interesting reading and in fairness sums up the feeling I get from this current Brexit mess.  

[MikeO]

40 minutes ago, Newty82 said:

I've stayed away from all this because the majority of attitudes from both far left and far right absolutely boil my piss.

TT should have been left to make the decision because over 54 pages and 3,238 posts so far we've had a far more sensible and respectful discussion than the elected numpties.

[rubecula]

16 minutes ago, MikeO said:

TT should have been left to make the decision because over 54 pages and 3,238 posts so far we've had a far more sensible and respectful discussion than the elected numpties.

you thick skulled bollock brain    yes Mike I tend to agree, especially as no matter which party you are following it seems as divided as any other group of people (but worse)  thank god we have democracy eh?

[Newty82]

1 hour ago, MikeO said:

TT should have been left to make the decision because over 54 pages and 3,238 posts so far we've had a far more sensible and respectful discussion than the elected numpties.

Maybe at some point I'll read back and educate myself.

[rubecula]

32 minutes ago, Newty82 said:

Maybe at some point I'll read back and educate myself.

are you a masochist? 

[Newty82]

33 minutes ago, rubecula said:

are you a masochist? 

Must be...I'll let you know once I've read back...might be a few years time mind!!!

[holystove]

3 hours ago, Newty82 said:

It's why a long time ago I gave up on it and decided to just live life and not worry about things out of my control. We may have been allowed a vote, but that's as much control as we are allowed to have.

This is an understandable but, imo, completely wrong reaction.  Your vote is very powerful and the only thing these bullshit artists fear is an informed voter who can break through their rhetoric and demand an honest response.

This is not a remain or leave thing, as for example brexit-people like Iain Martin, Ambrose Evans-Pritchard, Andrew Neil,.. are definitely informed.

2 hours ago, Bailey said:

Boris' resignation letter is interesting reading and in fairness sums up the feeling I get from this current Brexit mess.  

Boris' letter is utter nonsense.  Same hollow words as during the campaign, not one word about an alternative plan and for good measure he throws in a bit about EU regulations on trucks that is at best a half-truth.

I thought Davis' letter was more to the point. He said what it is about the current plan he doesn't agree with, however also not one mention of how May should go about it.  

[Palfy]

3 hours ago, Newty82 said:

I've stayed away from all this because the majority of attitudes from both far left and far right absolutely boil my piss.

The way people have acted towards each other for having differing views has been an eye opener. I suppose this is the downside to having what we call a democratic society. People are free to spout absolute shit at each other.

But what has been more of an eye opener is the way in which people in the positions of power and influence have gone about this Brexit business. I'm convinced that most have gone about it with nothing but intent to raise their own profile and prospects.

The whole thing has been a shocker. From start to now, and no one party, MP, MEP, Lord or whatever is coming out of it smelling of roses. Or at least very few are.

At any level, it seems we just are not capable of pulling off such a big move. Because to make it work would need complete unity. For starters, we ain't designed for the unity that would be required and then, of course, the system is set up to make sure that such unity can never take hold anyway!

I'm so frustrated now. It's all an absolute shambles.

It's why a long time ago I gave up on it and decided to just live life and not worry about things out of my control. We may have been allowed a vote, but that's as much control as we are allowed to have.

I'm probably as guilty as most for spouting off and making it personal sometimes, not good or clever I know but the frustration I feel at the decision to leave and the way it's been handled makes the blue mist descend.

I personally don't think we have the right tools or people in place to do a deal that will benefit this country and the people in it, we need the people in power to face the reality of the situation and call a halt to this fiasco, I maybe wrong but I do not believe the people who voted to leave ever envisaged it would end up like this, and I dare say given a second opportunity many would vote a different way.

I'm 59 next month and no matter how bad it gets financial which it will I'll be able to ride it out, but my kids and their generation are going to suffer 100% and that worries me.