Mindless Atrocities

[johnh]

I see the Saudi Arabian team were booed in Australia when they refused to line up for the minutes silence in honour of the London Bridge victims.

[MikeO]

I see the Saudi Arabian team were booed in Australia when they refused to line up for the minutes silence in honour of the London Bridge victims.

 

I've not noticed a minutes silence ever being observed in the UK (or the western world) for terrorist acts in Kabul, Riyadh, Baghdad, Mogadishu, Hyderabad, Nairobi, Jos, Jalalabad etc etc ad infinitum. We only ever hold silences for "people like us" because our lives are obviously worth more; shame they didn't do it and their football association has apologised but difficult to blame them.

[Sibdane]

 

I've not noticed a minutes silence ever being observed in the UK (or the western world) for terrorist acts in Kabul, Riyadh, Baghdad, Mogadishu, Hyderabad, Nairobi, Jos, Jalalabad etc etc ad infinitum. We only ever hold silences for "people like us" because our lives are obviously worth more; shame they didn't do it and their football association has apologised but difficult to blame them.

 

I kinda agree here. I can't remember the last time there was a minute's silence in the USA for a non-western country.

[Matt]

 

I've not noticed a minutes silence ever being observed in the UK (or the western world) for terrorist acts in Kabul, Riyadh, Baghdad, Mogadishu, Hyderabad, Nairobi, Jos, Jalalabad etc etc ad infinitum. We only ever hold silences for "people like us" because our lives are obviously worth more; shame they didn't do it and their football association has apologised but difficult to blame them.

unfortunately have to agree. There was no "I am Iran" or "I am Yemen" after the attacks there, were there.

[johnh]

I think you all miss the point here. If there had been a minutes silence for any of the incidents you mentioned, do you think any British team would ignore it?

 

Well, maybe Millwall.

Edited June 9, 2017 by johnh

[MikeO]

I think you all miss the point here. If there had been a minutes silence for any of the incidents you mentioned, do you think any British team would ignore it?

 

Well, maybe Millwall.

 

The point I'm making is that we would never have a minute's silence in the first place so your point will never apply.

[johnh]

Australia were the hosts and they decided to have one. It was disrespectful of the Saudi's not to participate. If any British national team was playing, say, in Nigeria and the hosts requested a minutes silence, do you really think we would ignore it?

[EFC-Paul]

Australia were the hosts and they decided to have one. It was disrespectful of the Saudi's not to participate. If any British national team was playing, say, in Nigeria and the hosts requested a minutes silence, do you really think we would ignore it?

This

[MikeO]

Australia were the hosts and they decided to have one. It was disrespectful of the Saudi's not to participate. If any British national team was playing, say, in Nigeria and the hosts requested a minutes silence, do you really think we would ignore it?

 

If we'd been made to feel like second class citizens historically then yes, why would we respect a culture that demeans/ignores ours?

[Vranny]

I completely agree with the whole western world looking out for itself sentiment, but in this case two Australians died in the attacks, so I'm assuming the primary reason for the minute silence was this, rather than to show support for the UK.

[Palfy]

If we'd been made to feel like second class citizens historically then yes, why would we respect a culture that demeans/ignores ours?

Come on Mike if you use that analogy then most of the world could use the excuse of not showing respect to another country and its population because of historical problems in the past.

We ourselves could refuse to respect the citizens of let's say Italy at a football match, a few days after some of their citizens had been killed in a terrorist attack on the basis of Romans invading Britain or the Italians killing British soldiers in the second world war.

What the Saudis did was completely disrespectful to the people of Australia, but not to be unexpected when they fund the extremist Muslim teachings through Mosques in this country and in others.

What they did was to stand in agreement with the perpetrators that carried out these attacks in such away that they should be treated like the scum they are isolated from the rest of the world until there society and regime collapse.

[Hafnia]

Australia were the hosts and they decided to have one. It was disrespectful of the Saudi's not to participate. If any British national team was playing, say, in Nigeria and the hosts requested a minutes silence, do you really think we would ignore it?

It's been very interesting and it certainly explained a lot of things.

 

Saudi Arabia promote an extreme form of Islam wahabbism.

 

Essentially they will see the jihadists as martyrs as it's not a sin to kill a non believer in their eyes.

 

This is what needs sorting out... and may sells them billions of pounds in weapons and yet they hate us?

Edited June 10, 2017 by Hafnia

[Chach]

It's been very interesting and it certainly explained a lot of things.

 

Saudi Arabia promote an extreme form of Islam wahabbism.

 

Essentially they will see the jihadists as martyrs as it's not a sin to kill a non believer in their eyes.

 

This is what needs sorting out... and may sells them billions of pounds in weapons and yet they hate us?

 

You've drawn an awful amount of conclusions there, not everyone in Saudi Arabia is a Wahabist and mainstream Islam considers it to be a satanic sect.

[Hafnia]

 

You've drawn an awful amount of conclusions there, not everyone in Saudi Arabia is a Wahabist and mainstream Islam considers it to be a satanic sect.

I Didn't say everyone in Saudi is a wahabist. However It is the dominant faith and billions have been invested in its promotion from oil mainly.

 

So.... based on this draw those conclusions.... the wealth and weapons that Saudi Arabia have....is being used against us.

 

Their human rights is beyond atrocious.

[Chach]

I Didn't say everyone in Saudi is a wahabist. However It is the dominant faith and billions have been invested in its promotion from oil mainly.

 

So.... based on this draw those conclusions.... the wealth and weapons that Saudi Arabia have....is being used against us.

 

Their human rights is beyond atrocious.

 

That's not what you said, its up there in black and white. You joined the dots from 11 guys failing to line up during a minutes silence conflated Wahhabism with Jihadism when its a bit more nuanced than that and implied that they didn't line up because they would see the perpetrators from last week as martyrs.

 

This is the reason that people who want to put all muslims in the same basket after an attack get called racists, not because Islam is a race but because you don't feel the need to do that when the perpetrators are the same ethnicity as you.

 

Their human rights are atrocious, they're an ally though and we're probably going to have to use diplomacy to change them because bombing them isn't working.

Edited June 10, 2017 by Chach

[Hafnia]

 

That's not what you said, its up there in black and white. You joined the dots from 11 guys failing to line up during a minutes silence conflated Wahhabism with Jihadism when its a bit more nuanced than that and implied that they didn't line up because they would see the perpetrators from last week as martyrs.

 

This is the reason that people who want to put all muslims in the same basket after an attack get called racists, not because Islam is a race but because you don't feel the need to do that when the perpetrators are the same ethnicity as you.

 

Their human rights are atrocious, they're an ally though and we're probably going to have to use diplomacy to change them because bombing them isn't working.

A country dominated by wahabbism has 11 men representing it who chose not to respect a minutes silence that they will have been briefed about isn't a statement?

 

The Saudi Arabians stood for a minutes silence to honour the passing of their king - so it clearly is in their culture to do so when they want to. They didn't want to - simple as that.

 

I don't need to have Islam and race differentiated thanks. I'm more than aware that 99% of Muslims are disgusted by the recent acts of terrorism... just as I as a Roman Catholic was disgusted by the IRA bombings. In fact I'm disgusted by people killing others - period.

[Chach]

I don't need to have Islam and race differentiated thanks. I'm more than aware that 99% of Muslims are disgusted by the recent acts of terrorism... just as I as a Roman Catholic was disgusted by the IRA bombings. In fact I'm disgusted by people killing others - period.

 

OK this is good, you've come a long way since page 1 when you claimed integration doesn't work.

[Hafnia]

Intergration doesnt work. Sadly.

 

The negatives are too noisy...

You mean this post? You do have a tendency to be condescending.

 

I stand by it.

 

I'm not against integration - I'm all for it.

 

I'm all for standing terraces at football grounds, just like I'm all for legalizing marijuana, unfortunately its the noisy minority that make such things impossible to have and enjoy the way we should.

Edited June 10, 2017 by Hafnia

[johnh]

 

If we'd been made to feel like second class citizens historically then yes, why would we respect a culture that demeans/ignores ours?

 

What on earth does that mean?

 

The Saudi Football Federation has apologised unreservedly for the disrespect shown. Two Australian nationals were killed in the attack.

[Chach]

You mean this post? You do have a tendency to be condescending.

 

I stand by it.

 

I'm not against integration - I'm all for it.

 

I'm all for standing terraces at football grounds, just like I'm all for legalizing marijuana, unfortunately its the noisy minority that make such things impossible to have and enjoy the way we should.

 

 

Claiming something doesn't work because it doesn't because it doesn't work a small percentage of the time is a non sequitur, I'll try and be less condescending if you try and make better arguments.

[Chach]

 

 

Claiming something doesn't work because it doesn't work a small percentage of the time is a non sequitur, I'll try and be less condescending if you try and make better arguments.

[Hafnia]

 

 

Claiming something doesn't work because it doesn't because it doesn't work a small percentage of the time is a non sequitur, I'll try and be less condescending if you try and make better arguments.

What's the better argument? That integration is an unequivocal success .... that there aren't racial tensions in districts across the UK due to intolerance on both sides?

 

Some People will be always be ignorant, intolerant, uneducated andvitsva sad state of affairs and whilst this remains the way - integration will always struggle.

 

People will at best accept that other people will have their culture, their places to go, neighbourhoods etc - that isn't integration.

[Cornish Steve]

 

That's not what you said, its up there in black and white. You joined the dots from 11 guys failing to line up during a minutes silence conflated Wahhabism with Jihadism when its a bit more nuanced than that and implied that they didn't line up because they would see the perpetrators from last week as martyrs.

 

This is the reason that people who want to put all muslims in the same basket after an attack get called racists, not because Islam is a race but because you don't feel the need to do that when the perpetrators are the same ethnicity as you.

 

Their human rights are atrocious, they're an ally though and we're probably going to have to use diplomacy to change them because bombing them isn't working.

 

You have to wonder WHY they are an ally. It's not because of shared values. It's not because we help each other. Saudi Arabia, consistently, has been the cause of many problems.

 

From what I understand (and I'm not at all a scholar on this topic), the big power struggle in the region is between Saudi Arabia and Iran. We've chosen to befriend the former and demonize the latter, which is short-sighted and not particularly wise. More trouble, undoubtedly, lies ahead because of these choices.

[Cornish Steve]

What's the better argument? That integration is an unequivocal success .... that there aren't racial tensions in districts across the UK due to intolerance on both sides?

 

Some People will be always be ignorant, intolerant, uneducated andvitsva sad state of affairs and whilst this remains the way - integration will always struggle.

 

People will at best accept that other people will have their culture, their places to go, neighbourhoods etc - that isn't integration.

 

Brits living abroad are no different.

[Hafnia]

 

Brits living abroad are no different.

Exactly. Australia by all accounts is pretty bad... lots of racism across all migrants.

[Palfy]

 

Claiming something doesn't work because it doesn't work a small percentage of the time is a non sequitur, I'll try and be less condescending if you try and make better arguments.

 

OK Chach if you wish to defend them for their actions, then in your opinion why didn't they stand reflect and respect the minutes silence.

[Chach]

OK Chach if you wish to defend them for their actions, then in your opinion why didn't they stand reflect and respect the minutes silence.

 

I didn't defend their actions, I have no idea what they were doing, from the video all I can tell is they didn't line up and one of them ties laces during the 2 mins silence and there has been conflicting reports here on discussions before and what was said and agreed

What I did was point out that that did not mean they were wahabbist jihadists who saw the attackers from last week as martyrs, those kind of comparisons are pointless.

[Chach]

What's the better argument? That integration is an unequivocal success .... that there aren't racial tensions in districts across the UK due to intolerance on both sides?

 

Some People will be always be ignorant, intolerant, uneducated andvitsva sad state of affairs and whilst this remains the way - integration will always struggle.

 

People will at best accept that other people will have their culture, their places to go, neighbourhoods etc - that isn't integration.

 

I don't know how you'd like me to respond here, all you've done there is badly take down your own straw man.

 

 

You have to wonder WHY they are an ally. It's not because of shared values. It's not because we help each other. Saudi Arabia, consistently, has been the cause of many problems.

 

From what I understand (and I'm not at all a scholar on this topic), the big power struggle in the region is between Saudi Arabia and Iran. We've chosen to befriend the former and demonize the latter, which is short-sighted and not particularly wise. More trouble, undoubtedly, lies ahead because of these choices.

 

There are certainly shared values just not religious.

I think it's disingenuous to lay the cause of the problem with Saudi though, we have a long history in meddling in middle eastern affairs and have certainly not been demonising Iran the whole time, after the UK pulled out of the middle east in the 60's the US had a Twin Pillars policy where it relied on Saudi and Iran to protect its interests in the middle east.

The problem is religious extremism, everything else can be reconciled one way or another and its easier to do that if we have a good diplomatic relationship with them.

[Hafnia]

 

I don't know how you'd like me to respond here, all you've done there is badly take down your own straw man.

 

 

There are certainly shared values just not religious.

I think it's disingenuous to lay the cause of the problem with Saudi though, we have a long history in meddling in middle eastern affairs and have certainly not been demonising Iran the whole time, after the UK pulled out of the middle east in the 60's the US had a Twin Pillars policy where it relied on Saudi and Iran to protect its interests in the middle east.

The problem is religious extremism, everything else can be reconciled one way or another and its easier to do that if we have a good diplomatic relationship with them.

What strawman chach? The most overused and misunderstood forum term.

 

How is me stating that integration doesn't work because of the persistent presence of absolute cock heads on all sides a straw man argument?

 

Integration must be continued - people need to try and educate and eradicate hatred and intolerance. But don't tell me it works... it clearly isn't working. It never will work because whilst dick heads are able to procreate and spread the ignorance to their children - the cycle will continue.

[Chach]

Well, without getting bogged down in arguments about arguments, which is exactly what we're doing.

 

You stated that integration doesn't work because it doesn't work all of the time, which I pointed out was illogical and if you wanted to demonstrate that integration didn't work you would require a better argument to demonstrate such, I never offered a counter argument. Undeterred you have then offered your own, a slippery slope argument:

 

"That integration is an unequivocal success .... that there aren't racial tensions in districts across the UK due to intolerance on both sides?

 

And then gone on to describe why that won't/doesn't work, therefore destroying a straw man that you built yourself.

 

These kind of diversions could easily be avoided if you didn't insist on doubling down every time someone points out a flaw in your argument, what the Saudi football team did was insensitive/inconsiderate, yes there are elements of the Saudi regime that are sympathetic to Islamists but attempting to join the dots and making sweeping generalisations is clumsy and you must now surely know its clumsy so why persist.

 

In an attempt to get vaguely back on topic, I listened to the first 40 mins of this podcast on my run yesterday

 

 

Pulls together quite a few of the talking points of the thread last week quite well, particularly why bad religious ideas should be challenged and why the left and right are both handling the response to radical islamism badly. (its on itunes too)