Mindless Atrocities

[EFC-Paul]

 

I'm struggling to see how that's delusional, if they are in no way responsible how are they not victims of this crime?

It's delusional to think helping them will "send a strong message" that will do any good bar a few tabloid whores clapping their hands at it, it won't change an iota

 

Tolerable and terrorism in the same sentence really!?

 

No the victims are the people that got crushed or stabbed to death, they will suffer as they have lost their father/husband but why do they deserve extra glamourised support to any other Joe bloggs criminals family?

Edited June 6, 2017 by EFC-Paul

[Matt]

 

I'm perfectly serious. Why punish very young children? This is how civilized nations distinguish themselves from the rest: demonstrate compassion even to the most undeserving. It sends a very powerful message.

Agree completely

[Hafnia]

 

You'd be hard pressed to find an example of injustices/oppression/atrocities carried out in the name of atheism though.

Calling out stupid ideas whether religious or non-religious is a critical part of intellectual discourse, that shouldn't be misconstrued as intolerance.

In the name of atheism? You mean intolerance of another persons religion like the holocaust?

[Hafnia]

Religion does a lot of good try telling that to the hundreds of if not thousands of children in Ireland who were victims of dirty fucking priest praying on innocent children wholesale in the name of Christ, and then the Catholic church closing ranks as far up as the Vatican for decades because they didn't want the truth to be known, which allowed more innocent children to fall into the net.

Where's the good the morality the kindness the comfort in that, the people who did that are the people that preach to you, that you look up to and get guidance from, not for me, I don't need religion to tell me right from wrong and people who do need religion to help them live their lives are no better than those who can operate with out the crutches of religion.

Ah right.... so you believe that religion changes some level minded man and turns him into a paedophile?

 

or maybe just like other positions of power and supposed trust paedophiles position themselves into in order to get away with it.

 

Maybe we should not be taking part in supporting a football club... all the kids abused by football coaches. Maybe we should all boycott the BBC.

 

You clearly don't see the good religion does so just leave it at that. No one is telling you that you are wrong to be an atheist.

[Chach]

In the name of atheism? You mean intolerance of another persons religion like the holocaust?

 

Mein Kampf is riddled with quotes about how he was doing the lords work as were his speeches.

Hitler was a Roman Catholic.

[Hafnia]

 

Mein Kampf is riddled with quotes about how he was doing the lords work as were his speeches.

Hitler was a Roman Catholic.

Absolute bollocks.

 

Religion is an excuse and not the reason.

 

Next up catcher in the rye and helter skelter

[Chach]

Gee we're really getting through these logical fallacies at a rate of knots aren't we Haf.

[Bill]

The British have always turned the other cheek, it changes nothing so it's about time we began to kick arse, not pussyfoot around with them.

 

Time to stop them coming in, time to send any that have no job and who milk the benefit system home, time to grow a pair and put an end to it.

 

This is our country let's keep it for us, nobody else.

[Hafnia]

Gee we're really getting through these logical fallacies at a rate of knots aren't we Haf.

Is Jodie foster a religion? Wasn't she the cause of a nutter trying to kill President Regan?

[aaron]

Is Jodie foster a religion? Wasn't she the cause of a nutter trying to kill President Regan?

Yes - The Fosterites. They baptise in Fosters and their favourite hymn is "Dr Foster went to Gloucester". She's the God...

[Chach]

Is Jodie foster a religion? Wasn't she the cause of a nutter trying to kill President Regan?

 

There's been a lot of studies between schizophrenia and religious experiences due to the similarities in their resulting episodes.

Its highly likely that if Jesus and Mohamed believed they were who they said they were, that they weren't dealing with a full pack of cards.

 

I see where you're going with this.

[Hafnia]

It's a funny thing atheism... the passion in trying to disprove the existence of God... if you don't believe in God then fine - that's your call.

 

I find it ironic that the behaviours that annoy atheists about religion are similarly represented in their views against religion.

 

I personally couldn't care what another person believes in as much as I couldn't care if they liked prawns.... as long as they don't try and make me eat them and tell me why I should then I'm honestly not bothered.

[Chach]

Atheism is not a belief system, it's a position. There's not a serious atheist on the planet who is "trying to disprove the existence of god", there's no burden of proof required for something there is zero evidence of existing.

[Matt]

Atheism is not a belief system, it's a position. There's not a serious atheist on the planet who is "trying to disprove the existence of god", there's no burden of proof required for something there is zero evidence of existing.

Not a system, but certainly a belief which I find rather ironic.

[Hafnia]

Atheism is not a belief system, it's a position. There's not a serious atheist on the planet who is "trying to disprove the existence of god", there's no burden of proof required for something there is zero evidence of existing.

Not challenging you but interested in your views on things like the miracle at Fatima, Lourdes, saints not showing any signs of decay etc.

 

I'm a scientific person yet I'm a Roman Catholic and I do look for evidential things to give me reassurance and comfort. Things like Near death experiences fascinate me.

[Chach]

Honestly don't have an opinion, haven't heard of any of the ones you mention there. I was raised a JW and rejected it in my early teens so pretty sceptical when it comes to miracles.
Wouldn't say I was an atheist though, I find the concept of nothing supernatural existing as mental as something supernatural existing.

[johnh]

Since the 80's and to date a majority of conflicts around the world whether in Europe,Africa or Asia have been fought in the name of religion.

Now I won't pretend to know how many people have died because of the difference in religious ideology, but imo far to many to justify the need to believe religion is needed and makes the world a better place to live.

I'm an atheist and I don't feel there is anything missing in my life because I have no God to answer to or believe in, and I definitely don't believe that being religious makes you a better and more stable person as the last 30 years or so have proven, so I find very difficult to see how religion play's a worthwhile role in society, when it is clear it has become a major source of conflict.

 

Palfy, you say the majority of conflicts in the world have been fought in the name of religion. Which ones? I think 'minority' might cover it. The major one was Iran v Iraq which was an Islam v Islam war. Can't think of many others. I can only think that you are confusing 'religion' with 'race'.

[MikeO]

The fact of the matter is that religion does a lot of good.... it saves a lot of people, it is used to set morals, comfort those in despair...

"Comfort those in despair" is actually relevant to a discussion I'm involved in on the other forum I'm active on, the Macmillan Cancer one. A committed Christian woman struggling with her faith after she lost her husband at 36 recently, wondering why God would do that to her; it's a really moving and thought provoking conversation.

 

Personally I'm an atheist but have no problems with people of religion, one of my daughters was recently baptised and her new faith makes her happy so great.

 

I just think there are good people and bad people, however they define themselves or what they believe.

[Cornish Steve]

 

You'd be hard pressed to find an example of injustices/oppression/atrocities carried out in the name of atheism though.

 

Really? Mao and Stalin, who sought to wipe out all traces of religion, killed over 100 million people. Look at the world's worst atrocities, and sadly you'll find many similar stories.

[Cornish Steve]

Personally, as a former research scientist, I can do no other but conclude that our universe was created. The Anthropic Principle in physics and the Convergence Principle in biology, if nothing else, lead the earnest observer to this conclusion. Next, I happen to believe that the creator of the universe personally visited this planet and provided the "user manual", if you will. The world will thrive if we have the courage to pursue these directions: love our enemies, actively turn the other cheek, help your enemy when he's in need (the Good Samaritan), always seek peace, strivr to live in harmony with all others, take especially good care of the poor, the sick, the widowed, the oppressed, the immigrant, etc. Ironically, in history, it's sometimes people of other faiths who demonstrate the most courage. Consider this scene from the movie 'Gandhi', for example, which is a faithful interpretation of what actually happened. This is why personal faith is so important; otherwise, we revert back to "the selfish gene" and rejoice when our enemies are hurting - or conclude, like Dawkins, that children should be taken from parents and indoctrinated by the state.

 

[MikeO]

[Hafnia]

Personally, as a former research scientist, I can do no other but conclude that our universe was created. The Anthropic Principle in physics and the Convergence Principle in biology, if nothing else, lead the earnest observer to this conclusion. Next, I happen to believe that the creator of the universe personally visited this planet and provided the "user manual", if you will. The world will thrive if we have the courage to pursue these directions: love our enemies, actively turn the other cheek, help your enemy when he's in need (the Good Samaritan), always seek peace, strivr to live in harmony with all others, take especially good care of the poor, the sick, the widowed, the oppressed, the immigrant, etc. Ironically, in history, it's sometimes people of other faiths who demonstrate the most courage. Consider this scene from the movie 'Gandhi', for example, which is a faithful interpretation of what actually happened. This is why personal faith is so important; otherwise, we revert back to "the selfish gene" and rejoice when our enemies are hurting - or conclude, like Dawkins, that children should be taken from parents and indoctrinated by the state.

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yrHNig2aIjQ&t=44s

Interesting that A lot of astronauts come back from space deeply religious.

[MikeO]

Interesting that A lot of astronauts come back from space deeply religious.

 

Not all.

 

Bill Anders

Apollo 8 pilot

The son of a US navy lieutenant, Anders was born in October 1933 and grew up in San Diego, California, before becoming a jet pilot, joining the Apollo programme in 1963. Apollo 8 was his only space mission, though he can claim to have made as great an impact as any other seasoned space traveller on that trip: his image of Earthrise has become the environmentalists' icon. The mission affected him profoundly. Once a devout Catholic, he found his experience of space made a mockery of his beliefs and he gave up religion.

https://www.theguardian.com/science/2008/nov/30/apollo-8-mission

[Chach]

 

Really? Mao and Stalin, who sought to wipe out all traces of religion, killed over 100 million people. Look at the world's worst atrocities, and sadly you'll find many similar stories.

 

Yes really, Mao and Stalin were not driven by non-belief in a higher power they were driven by their fanatical Marxist ideologies (and some manner of psychopathy)

 

Fanaticism (and psychopathy, maybe its the same thing) is the constant, whether political or religious not belief or disbelief.

[Chach]

Personally, as a former research scientist, I can do no other but conclude that our universe was created. The Anthropic Principle in physics and the Convergence Principle in biology, if nothing else, lead the earnest observer to this conclusion. Next, I happen to believe that the creator of the universe personally visited this planet and provided the "user manual", if you will. The world will thrive if we have the courage to pursue these directions: love our enemies, actively turn the other cheek, help your enemy when he's in need (the Good Samaritan), always seek peace, strivr to live in harmony with all others, take especially good care of the poor, the sick, the widowed, the oppressed, the immigrant, etc. Ironically, in history, it's sometimes people of other faiths who demonstrate the most courage. Consider this scene from the movie 'Gandhi', for example, which is a faithful interpretation of what actually happened. This is why personal faith is so important; otherwise, we revert back to "the selfish gene" and rejoice when our enemies are hurting - or conclude, like Dawkins, that children should be taken from parents and indoctrinated by the state.

 

You draw a very long bow there implying that the only conclusion one can gather from the apparent fine tuning of the planet/galaxy/universe to support life* is that it not only it had a creator with with a plan for humans but he also visited earth and left some directions to bronze/iron age nomads in one tiny geographical location in the middle east.

 

To then imply that without the morals that we get from religion that we would all degenerate into base survivalism and citing The Selfish Gene as evidence is a complete misunderstanding of that work, socially we are not the sum total of our genes.

 

Again with Dawkins you've drawn a conclusion that is not there, he made the point that the rights of the child have to be balanced with the rights of the parent but the context of discussion was around what should be taught in public schools, which as an ex research scientist I am sure you would agree should be evidence based. He never made a suggestion that children should be forcibly indoctrinated.

 

 

*Even that is highly debatable, most people on this forum were born in the north west of England and had they have been born in the middle of winter without technology they would have likely been dead within a few hours.

[Palfy]

Personally, as a former research scientist, I can do no other but conclude that our universe was created. The Anthropic Principle in physics and the Convergence Principle in biology, if nothing else, lead the earnest observer to this conclusion. Next, I happen to believe that the creator of the universe personally visited this planet and provided the "user manual", if you will. The world will thrive if we have the courage to pursue these directions: love our enemies, actively turn the other cheek, help your enemy when he's in need (the Good Samaritan), always seek peace, strivr to live in harmony with all others, take especially good care of the poor, the sick, the widowed, the oppressed, the immigrant, etc. Ironically, in history, it's sometimes people of other faiths who demonstrate the most courage. Consider this scene from the movie 'Gandhi', for example, which is a faithful interpretation of what actually happened. This is why personal faith is so important; otherwise, we revert back to "the selfish gene" and rejoice when our enemies are hurting - or conclude, like Dawkins, that children should be taken from parents and indoctrinated by the state.

You sound like a conscientious objector, you would let your enemies commit atrocities and in the name of some higher being turn the other cheek and forgive them in the hope that, what they we will see the errors of their ways, and find ever lasting peace in the arms of some unproven God.

That's a fairy tale just like the bible and the Koran, but luckily for you and me our fathers and grandfathers didn't turn the other cheek in 1939.

 

 

[Hafnia]

A supposed intelligent debate sees the bible or Koran referred to as a fairy tale....

Edited June 7, 2017 by Hafnia

[holystove]

 

You draw a very long bow there implying that the only conclusion one can gather from the apparent fine tuning of the planet/galaxy/universe to support life is that it not only it had a creator with with a plan for humans but he also visited earth and left some directions to bronze/iron age nomads in one tiny geographical location in the middle east.

 

To then imply that without the morals that we get from religion that we would all degenerate into base survivalism and citing The Selfish Gene as evidence is a complete misunderstanding of that work, socially we are not the sum total of our genes.

 

Again with Dawkins you've drawn a conclusion that is not there, he made the point that the rights of the child have to be balanced with the rights of the parent but the context of discussion was around what should be taught in public schools, which as an ex research scientist I am sure you would agree should be evidence based. He never made a suggestion that children should be forcibly indoctrinated.

 

Excellent reply.

 

Religion is important for people who are in a tough situation. To give them strenght to keep going, with the promise a better afterlife. To me, if religion is an important part of a society, it is an indication of a failure to set up the necessary structures that support and protect individuals and families.

 

Concerning the creation of the universe, we don't know (yet?) - so I don't mind if people credit a god for making everything; as long as that doesn't mean we stop our scientific pursuit of what (really) happened.

[pete0]

A supposed intelligent debate sees the bible or Koran referred to as a fairy tale....

What's the difference between them, and say the stories we say about Father Christmas?

Both used to get the masses to conform. I walked out of church when I was about 8 because it was obvious that the story of the day was to make people work harder with the false promise of being rewarded in heaven. Not much different than the stories I was told that Santa was all seeing and you will not get any presents unless you are good. I'd even go as far to say the stuff like father Christmas we're told as kids is to make us more susceptible to religions.

For me faith is good when used to curb bad people, give ex cons or those who have lost someone hope. We should focus on the culture the books promote, not all of it as a lot is outdated, and not the faith. Like we do for Christmas, we focus on being good, and not the almighty Saint Nick.

[EFC-Paul]

A supposed intelligent debate sees the bible or Koran referred to as a fairy tale....

Without trying to offend anyone it could well be Haf, it really wouldn't look out of place on a Sci fiction shelf at your local library

 

Men living in the sky parting seas resurrection, the nephilim cockatrice unicorns dragons to name but a few the list is endless

 

That's not me forcing my view purely an opinion as to why I find it hard for these things to be believed in the modern world

 

The human brain tripled in size some 500 thousand years ago which brought about a higher order of cognitive functions, without modern means and science mortality took a back step as the people of those times over the years tried to piece together the world and all within it

 

Hominids came millions of years before any religion made an appearance and the evolution of the brain (above) coincides with many of the earliest known religious practices

 

To me it was man's way of trying to put together the unknown and as time went on many used it for various other reasons, comfort gain control peace etc

 

That's my two cents anyway as said each to their own and I'm far from anti religious I just wanted to put my opinion across

Edited June 7, 2017 by EFC-Paul