Mindless Atrocities

[MC11]

Did anyone else hear the bomber's old friend talking? some rapper calling himself ghecko(never heard of him myself, im more Grandmaster Flash/Public Enemy) he claims there is a group of people in Manchester going round brainwashing these kids and recruiting them for ISIS. That is a very worrying thing if true. I saw all the Police with guns when i was in Brighton the other day, i found it all a bit strange, i wonder how long they will be like that.

I can imagine a high percentage of Mosque's have hate preachers.

[MikeO]

I can imagine a high percentage of Mosque's have hate preachers.

 

Based on what? You visit them often or are you guessing?

[MC11]

Based on what? You visit them often or are you guessing?

Based on BBC documentaries I've watched. Maybe you should introduce yourself at your local mosque.

[MikeO]

Based on BBC documentaries I've watched. Maybe you should introduce yourself at your local mosque.

 

I'd happily do that, it's in Exeter and I drive past it often. I have absolutely no doubt whatsoever that I'd be made very welcome.

[pete0]

I used to study in a mosque at the back of Manchester uni (just made it easier to do studying in a group without the Muslim lads having to go far for prayer), never felt unwelcome. However, did feel a little uncomfortable with the preaching. Been to a big one in Bradford and was pleasantly surprised by the under floor heating. I was more surprised that I was the only white guy there though.

[Hafnia]

There will be undercover police in pretty much every mosque.

[MikeO]

There will be undercover police in pretty much every mosque.

 

Sad that, are they in every church as well?

[Hafnia]

 

Sad that, are they in every church as well?

No but I would hazard a guess that there would be a policeman in most if not all church services.

[Chach]

 

It can't not work, too late for that. You can't put the genie back in the bottle; and I wouldn't want to. In many areas it does work anyway.

 

It only doesn't work for people who are uneducated or just plain stupid, there will always be people like that but you can't let them win.

 

Paul Nuttall being a hilarious example:

 

Trigger warning, video contains "BBC lefty liberal luvvie" satirising mouth breather.

 

Edited May 29, 2017 by Chach

[Formby]

If you go to any northern town (Darwen, Accrington, Blackburn, Keighley, Oldham, Rochdale, Nelson) and speak to people, it's very clear that integration has not worked. These are very divided communities. You can sweep it under the carpet by saying the cause of it is economic, but there is a lot more to it than that. Racism cuts both ways, religious intolerance cuts both ways. My wife is Pakistani, 90% of the people I know are Pakistani. I speak Urdu. We have run the gauntlet of threat and bigotry (from her community) for fifteen years. The things I have seen / heard / experienced would make people think again about integration. There is a small but not insignificant number of militants in mosques. Most damaging of all is the radio silence that allows them to operate. Speak to any Pakistani / Bengali and they will tell you this. They will tell you of the appalling levels of racism in their own community. Talking about reciprocal arrangements for churches at a time like this is surely a joke. If there were militant Christians out there, we'd all want them being monitored.

Edited May 29, 2017 by formby

[Romey 1878]

Surely you're just jesting when you suggest racism goes both ways? If the media is to be believed racism is only something that is a "whites" issue.

[pete0]

If you cluster migrants together it creates a divide between them and the locals. That's not integration. Look at Liverpool, the Chinese live all over the city and are fully integrated without a problem, there's still a China town to recognise their culture and no one had a problem with that.

 

I'd say the main two reasons it's not worked for the Muslims over here are

1) poor integration from the council's who have created isolated bubbles.

2) a lack of effort from the Muslims to embrace British culture, yet an almost arrogant expectation for the locals to embrace theirs fully.

 

No other minority seems to have such a divide, up North any how, why is it only Muslims?

[Formby]

One of the main problems is the strand of Islam being taught in mosques (Deobandism). There are loads of articles online about it.

 

https://www.spectator.co.uk/2014/06/who-runs-our-mosques/#

 

I have found that, even amongst perfectly lovely, intelligent people in the community, that there is still a sense of preferring to be together (amongst Muslims) rather than be part of a wider multi-cultural community. Not all, of course, but a majority. The underlying fear is that their identity and values will be lost.

[pete0]

One of the main problems is the strand of Islam being taught in mosques (Deobandism). There are loads of articles online about it.

 

https://www.spectator.co.uk/2014/06/who-runs-our-mosques/#

 

I have found that, even amongst perfectly lovely, intelligent people in the community, that there is still a sense of preferring to be together (amongst Muslims) rather than be part of a wider multi-cultural community. Not all, of course, but a majority. The underlying fear is that their identity and values will be lost.

There's a lot of pressure, fear, intimidation, bullying whatever you want to label it on those that don't comply. Talk of the town and looked down upon if you marry out.

[MikeO]

Not all one way, we may be short on intolerant "fundamentalist" Christians in the UK (though there are certainly a few) but there are plenty of them in the US and other parts of the world...

 

"The suspected killer, Jeremy Joseph Christian - who police say had "extremist ideology" and allegedly said "all Muslims should die" during the attack - was arrested after the attack."

 

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-40084410

 

"More than $880,000 (£685,000) has been raised for the families of Mr Namkai-Meche and Mr Best as well as Mr Fletcher - including a campaign organised by two Muslim organisations that has raised nearly $350,000."

 

Integration doesn't work?

[Cornish Steve]

No but I would hazard a guess that there would be a policeman in most if not all church services.

 

If your statement is true, why are there so few Muslim police officers?

[Hafnia]

 

If your statement is true, why are there so few Muslim police officers?

I'm talking about Caucasian appearing police officers who go to Christian churches as standard routine.

[MikeO]

I'm talking about Caucasian appearing police officers who go to Christian churches as standard routine.

 

Less than 2% of the British population go to C of E churches of a Sunday.

 

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2016/jan/12/church-of-england-attendance-falls-below-million-first-time

 

If my local church is anything to go by (I see them coming out in their Sunday Best) a significant majority of them are pensioners, you might get the odd retired policeman but I think you're way wrong if you think our boys in blue are rushing to worship every week-end. More likely in the pub.

[Bailey]

Pete & Haf it's you lads being brainwashed by these Corbynistas. I have read the documents, I have seen the pictured and I have read the interviews. I don't listen to mainstream media, I read independent sources where I can.

 

I thought I would post the more interesting ones for you here.

 

https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/andrewgilliganblog.wordpress.com/2017/05/28/jeremy-corbyn-helped-get-the-ira-a-taxpayer-subsidy-see-the-documents/amp/

 

One from the luvvy lefty Guardian for you as well... So Mcdonnell either doesn't read what he signs or he is talking out of his arse. Also confirms Corbyn backtracking on shoot to kill.

 

https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/amp.theguardian.com/politics/2015/nov/19/john-mcdonnell-denies-backing-call-to-end-mi5-and-disarm-police

 

This one from inside Labour itself:

 

http://labour-uncut.co.uk/2015/08/07/the-idea-that-jeremy-corbyn-laid-the-foundations-for-peace-in-northern-ireland-is-total-fantasy/

 

There are loads absolutely loads. Even claiming not to have met an IRA with Andrew Neil thr other day despite countless pictures with them. He is slimy and deceitful, not this honest bloke he makes out.

[Matt]

From the law enforcement I know, religion is never going to be part of their lives. Who could blame them, dealing with the idiots, having their lives threatened on a frequent basis, the list could go on...

[Chach]

Pete & Haf it's you lads being brainwashed by these Corbynistas. I have read the documents, I have seen the pictured and I have read the interviews. I don't listen to mainstream media, I read independent sources where I can.

 

I thought I would post the more interesting ones for you here.

 

https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/andrewgilliganblog.wordpress.com/2017/05/28/jeremy-corbyn-helped-get-the-ira-a-taxpayer-subsidy-see-the-documents/amp/

 

 

The guy who wrote that blog is about as mainstream media as you get (not that that is a bad thing IMO) and a well known Tory crony.

 

There is absolutely nothing in that article that supports your initial claim that JC actively supported the IRA, that's nothing more than conjecture in an attempt to smear.

Edited May 30, 2017 by Chach

[Cornish Steve]

From the law enforcement I know, religion is never going to be part of their lives. Who could blame them, dealing with the idiots, having their lives threatened on a frequent basis, the list could go on...

 

I do think that's overstating it - by a flying mile, actually!

 

My earlier point is that, if the percentage of Christian police officers attending church is comparable to the number of Muslim police officers attending mosque, then it's misleading to suggest that the police officers attending mosque are there under cover while police officers attending church are not. If the percentage of police officers attending mosque is less than the percentage of Muslims in society, this means one of three things: (i) they are less religious; (ii) they cannot be trusted; (iii) the police force doesn't recruit enough Muslim officers. Which scenario do you think is true?

[Palfy]

I do think that's overstating it - by a flying mile, actually!

 

My earlier point is that, if the percentage of Christian police officers attending church is comparable to the number of Muslim police officers attending mosque, then it's misleading to suggest that the police officers attending mosque are there under cover while police officers attending church are not. If the percentage of police officers attending mosque is less than the percentage of Muslims in society, this means one of three things: (i) they are less religious; (ii) they cannot be trusted; (iii) the police force doesn't recruit enough Muslim officers. Which scenario do you think is true?

WTF it's not the Krypton Factor, it's about innocent people being killed by radicalised extremist, to believe that how many police officers attend church or a mosque will have a bearing on this, is pure fantasy you could close every mosque in the country and you would still have the same amount of radicals wanting to kill.

And if the solution was as easy as making police officers attend mosques undercover or otherwise don't you think that would have been happening years ago.

What we have to do is stop giving the hate campaigners the ammunition to preach their vile rhetoric to the gullible followers, and we can start by keeping out of war's that are of no concern to us, because this has led us to where we are today.

[Matt]

 

I do think that's overstating it - by a flying mile, actually!

 

My earlier point is that, if the percentage of Christian police officers attending church is comparable to the number of Muslim police officers attending mosque, then it's misleading to suggest that the police officers attending mosque are there under cover while police officers attending church are not. If the percentage of police officers attending mosque is less than the percentage of Muslims in society, this means one of three things: (i) they are less religious; (ii) they cannot be trusted; (iii) the police force doesn't recruit enough Muslim officers. Which scenario do you think is true?

i said based on who I knew, and those I know are not religious

[EFC-Paul]

Interesting debate from two Australian Muslim leaders, pretty much what many would deem a left vs right wing debate over here if they weren't Muslims

 

I've always said it's about interpretation, I've read the Koran with an open mind or as open as I could and for the most part being totally honest I found it quite disturbing and violent. In my opinion it can be read two ways moderately or extremely it's down to the individual on which way it swings

 

https://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=%23&ved=0ahUKEwjouLWP7JfUAhXJKMAKHUKSBRQQwqsBCB4wAA&usg=AFQjCNF1sHlk2z9QIx28jtvfnGP_UlkifA&sig2=RqC3D_iBEXuqZL9fihrXJw

[Cornish Steve]

WTF it's not the Krypton Factor, it's about innocent people being killed by radicalised extremist, to believe that how many police officers attend church or a mosque will have a bearing on this, is pure fantasy you could close every mosque in the country and you would still have the same amount of radicals wanting to kill.

And if the solution was as easy as making police officers attend mosques undercover or otherwise don't you think that would have been happening years ago.

What we have to do is stop giving the hate campaigners the ammunition to preach their vile rhetoric to the gullible followers, and we can start by keeping out of war's that are of no concern to us, because this has led us to where we are today.

 

Calm down, Palfy!

 

The suggestion made was that the police visit churches innocently because they are members and not there to listen out for subversive plots, while they visit mosques under cover so they can listen out for subversive plots. If true, we are branding all Muslims with the same iron, and I've very sensitive to that. My Jewish grandfather, thanks to the Mosleyites, had to change his last name to avoid the ire and discrimination of certain elements of the population. Let's not return to those days.

 

If the statement is true about the police visiting mosques under cover, then that implies there are too few Muslim police officers present whom we can trust. If this is the case, then it's a very good reason for the police to hire more Muslims.

[MikeO]

I've always said it's about interpretation, I've read the Koran with an open mind or as open as I could and for the most part being totally honest I found it quite disturbing and violent. In my opinion it can be read two ways moderately or extremely it's down to the individual on which way it swings

 

Have you read the Old Testament?

[EFC-Paul]

 

Have you read the Old Testament?

I know full well of the violence advocated in many religious "books" Mike but Christianity isn't involved in this topic nor is it the most problematic of current times and is far less violent to non Christians as the Koran to non Muslims

 

Have you read the Koran?

 

Each to their own but personally I don't believe in any religion, it's a tool to comfort control and profit imo and in a modern world I fail to understand how people can believe something that wouldn't look at all out of place on a fictional library book shelf but that's just me

Edited May 30, 2017 by EFC-Paul

[MikeO]

I know full well of the violence advocated in many religious "books" Mike but Christianity isn't involved in this topic nor is it the most problematic of current times and is far less violent to non Christians as the Koran to non Muslims

 

Have you read the Koran?

 

No and I never plan to, same as the OT. Just commenting. Currently the problem may well be predominantly Muslim, in the not too distant past it was Christian.

 

Get over it humans.

[EFC-Paul]

 

in the not too distant past it was Christian.

 

Get over it humans.

Irrelevant and never in question, all religion has its hands washed with blood the difference is most move with modern times some don't sadly

 

Get over it humans? If only it were that easy