Mindless Atrocities

[Paddock]

I knew this thread would end up really deep.

[EFC-Paul]

I knew this thread would end up really deep.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=LFcl-6N8DUg

[Romey 1878]

A supposed intelligent debate sees the bible or Koran referred to as a fairy tale....

 

That is exactly what they are as far as I'm concerned. If you, or anyone else, wants to believe differently then go for it. I don't think seeing them as fairy tales is an unintelligent viewpoint tbh.

[Chach]

I think the point is though, you're not really adding much to the conversation when just write them off as fairy tales which is generally the idea in an intelligent debate.

 

Attack the ideas not the source, if nothing else they are both remarkable pieces of literature which is probably why they've stuck around for so long.

[Romey 1878]

I think the point is though, you're not really adding much to the conversation when just write them off as fairy tales which is generally the idea in an intelligent debate.

 

Attack the ideas not the source, if nothing else they are both remarkable pieces of literature which is probably why they've stuck around for so long.

I'm not attacking them at all though. I just find I can in no way put any store in anything contained in them because I see them as real as the story of Snow White and the Seven Dwarfs.

 

I could argue that I think it's unintelligent of anyone to think they could possibly be real and something to live their life by.

 

It's each to their own though isn't it?

[Matt]

Attacks in Iran today claimed by ISIS, a country of 99.4% Muslim population.

[Palfy]

I knew this thread would end up really deep.

Your right mate it's that deep I'm drowning, but shouldn't complain I threw myself in.

[EFC-Paul]

Attacks in Iran today claimed by ISIS, a country of 99.4% Muslim population.

Nothing new sadly Matt, they kill more of their own then anyone else but still in the name of Allah

[Palfy]

A supposed intelligent debate sees the bible or Koran referred to as a fairy tale....

Fair enough maybe fairy tale wasn't the right terminology to use, but they are fictional stories, as science has proved some of the text to be untrue, and no religion has proved the existence of any God.

Now I cannot believe in anything that has no proof of existence bar a book written by someone thousands of years ago, to me that's as crazy as being told that Everton won the double this year when I know they never, yet I believe they did because I have complete faith in the person who told me they did.

Not all but most people who believe in a higher being have had that taught to them from an early age know matter what faith they follow, and when you come from a religious family or environment at an early age are very impressionable, and in some ways brain washed into being a believer.

I would say prove to me the existence of God, I know the reply will be prove God doesn't exist, well here's a starter he didn't put Adam and Eve on the planet, we evolved from Apes your book says otherwise.

[Hafnia]

Fair enough maybe fairy tale wasn't the right terminology to use, but they are fictional stories, as science has proved some of the text to be untrue, and no religion has proved the existence of any God.

Now I cannot believe in anything that has no proof of existence bar a book written by someone thousands of years ago, to me that's as crazy as being told that Everton won the double this year when I know they never, yet I believe they did because I have complete faith in the person who told me they did.

Not all but most people who believe in a higher being have had that taught to them from an early age know matter what faith they follow, and when you come from a religious family or environment at an early age are very impressionable, and in some ways brain washed into being a believer.

I would say prove to me the existence of God, I know the reply will be prove God doesn't exist, well here's a starter he didn't put Adam and Eve on the planet, we evolved from Apes your book says otherwise.

I'm not asking you to prove that God doesn't exist.... nor am I going to tell you that atheists who experienced spiritual awakenings having had near death experiences shouod make you change You point of view...

 

Yet atheists will always point to science as being "proof"... that's why religion is called faith.

[MikeO]

I'm not asking you to prove that God doesn't exist.... nor am I going to tell you that atheists who experienced spiritual awakenings having had near death experiences shouod make you change You point of view...

 

Yet atheists will always point to science as being "proof"... that's why religion is called faith.

 

'I refuse to prove that I exist,' says God, 'for proof denies faith, and without faith, I am nothing.' 'But, says Man, the Babel fish is a dead giveaway, isn't it? It could not have evolved by chance. It proves you exist, and, by your own arguments, you don't. QED.' 'Oh dear,' says God, 'I hadn't thought of that,' and vanishes in a puff of logic. 'Oh, that was easy,' says Man, and for an encore goes on to prove that black is white and gets himself killed on the next zebra crossing.

[Paddock]

 

That is exactly what they are as far as I'm concerned. If you, or anyone else, wants to believe differently then go for it. I don't think seeing them as fairy tales is an unintelligent viewpoint tbh.

I'm with you

[Palfy]

'I refuse to prove that I exist,' says God, 'for proof denies faith, and without faith, I am nothing.' 'But, says Man, the Babel fish is a dead giveaway, isn't it? It could not have evolved by chance. It proves you exist, and, by your own arguments, you don't. QED.' 'Oh dear,' says God, 'I hadn't thought of that,' and vanishes in a puff of logic. 'Oh, that was easy,' says Man, and for an encore goes on to prove that black is white and gets himself killed on the next zebra crossing.

Now I'm really confused, are you a prophet if so what is the meaning of your wisdom.

[MikeO]

Now I'm really confused, are you a prophet if so what is the meaning of your wisdom.

 

Douglas Adams.

 

http://hitchhikers.wikia.com/wiki/Babel_Fish

[Hafnia]

Anybody have a solid enough understanding of quantum physics enough to debunk it's potential in explaining a lot of things that religion touches upon?

[EFC-Paul]

Anybody have a solid enough understanding of quantum physics enough to debunk it's potential in explaining a lot of things that religion touches upon?

Many scientists like Neil DeGrasse Tyson do and have some great stuff online, he's well worth a listen tbh

Edited June 7, 2017 by EFC-Paul

[markjazzbassist]

Anybody have a solid enough understanding of quantum physics enough to debunk it's potential in explaining a lot of things that religion touches upon?

 

for me it all comes down to: why can't we all just respect one another's beliefs and not try to disprove each other regardless of what each other believes?

 

i am a person of faith but have many atheist friends, we get along fine because we don't try to tell each other how to live or what to believe.

Edited June 7, 2017 by markjazzbassist

[Hafnia]

Many scientists like Neil DeGrasse Tyson do and have some great stuff online, he's well worth a listen tbh

Werner Heisenberg:-

 

"The first gulp from the glass of natural sciences will turn you into an atheist, but at the bottom of the glass God is waiting for you."

 

This was a genius who was one of the pioneers of quantum physics.... he also happened to be deeply religious.

 

My point is:- how can a man so brilliant - with a far greater understanding of the universe etc than any of us be a man of religious belief? Surely he would have been one for quoting the existence of primitive man etc etc... he didn't though.

[MikeO]

Quantum physics v "And if thine eye offend thee, pluck it out, and cast from thee: it is better for thee to enter into life with one eye, rather than having two eyes to be cast into hell fire."

 

OK.

 

I (as I've said) have no issues with people of religion but I really struggle with why; it makes absolutely no sense to me at all. I wonder why intelligent people can see things that I can't, including TT members, but I really really don't get it.

[MikeO]

Werner Heisenberg:-

 

"The first gulp from the glass of natural sciences will turn you into an atheist, but at the bottom of the glass God is waiting for you."

 

This was a genius who was one of the pioneers of quantum physics.... he also happened to be deeply religious.

 

My point is:- how can a man so brilliant - with a far greater understanding of the universe etc than any of us be a man of religious belief? Surely he would have been one for quoting the existence of primitive man etc etc... he didn't though.

 

Are you suggesting there was no "primitive man"?

 

You're surely not a creationist.

[markjazzbassist]

Quantum physics v "And if thine eye offend thee, pluck it out, and cast from thee: it is better for thee to enter into life with one eye, rather than having two eyes to be cast into hell fire."

 

OK.

 

I (as I've said) have no issues with people of religion but I really struggle with why; it makes absolutely no sense to me at all. I wonder why intelligent people can see things that I can't, including TT members, but I really really don't get it.

 

you're reading it literally, i've only ever read it figuratively. basically saying keep yourself in check, if something is causing you problems, best to get rid than to have it ruin you. it's not saying literally poke your eye out. do you read poetry and literature the same way, literal only?

[Hafnia]

 

Are you suggesting there was no "primitive man"?

 

You're surely not a creationist.

I definitely believe that there was primitive man...

 

I believe that one day we will all be enlightened as to why we actually know very little right now. There is something more to all this - that is for sure.

[MikeO]

 

you're reading it literally, i've only ever read it figuratively. basically saying keep yourself in check, if something is causing you problems, best to get rid than to have it ruin you. it's not saying literally poke your eye out. do you read poetry and literature the same way, literal only?

 

Don't be daft, of course I'm not taking it literally, just using it as an example of the absurdity of much of the Bible.

 

Some will take it literally though, as some take daft bits of the Quran the same way,

[MikeO]

I definitely believe that there was primitive man...

 

I believe that one day we will all be enlightened as to why we actually know very little right now. There is something more to all this - that is for sure.

 

We know lots right now, the more we find out the more the god myth will be debunked (imo).

[Palfy]

We know lots right now, the more we find out the more the god myth will be debunked (imo).

isn't it already if you use your analogy. I think so.

[Chach]

 

for me it all comes down to: why can't we all just respect one another's beliefs and not try to disprove each other regardless of what each other believes?

 

i am a person of faith but have many atheist friends, we get along fine because we don't try to tell each other how to live or what to believe.

 

This misses the point of science and theology though IMO which is ultimately about truth seeking, where do you draw the line between respecting someones belief and respecting someones beliefs that are harmful to others, personal anecdotes are all well and good but not everybody lives a comfortable existence in a liberal democracy.

For a liberal you seem to have an ironic foot in the conservative camp there and are uncomfortable having your traditions challenged, did any human progress ever come from "agreeing to disagree?"

 

Werner Heisenberg:-

 

"The first gulp from the glass of natural sciences will turn you into an atheist, but at the bottom of the glass God is waiting for you."

 

This was a genius who was one of the pioneers of quantum physics.... he also happened to be deeply religious.

 

My point is:- how can a man so brilliant - with a far greater understanding of the universe etc than any of us be a man of religious belief? Surely he would have been one for quoting the existence of primitive man etc etc... he didn't though.

 

Well he was born 100 years ago into a religious family when almost everyone was religious but that is besides the point,

How can Andrew Snelling and and Kurt Wild hold PhD's in in Geology yet hold the belief that the earth is only several thousand years old, it doesn't really matter because they are outliers. The vast majority of scientists do not believe in a personal god, but even that is beside the point because when they answer that question when asked they are really just answering "do they believe in any of the gods currently on offer who have a plan for humanity", whether its the catholic god who has his little notebook out recording sins or the god of ISIS who demands the blood of every infidel, I'm sure they are pretty open minded beyond that.

On a scale of 1-7, 1 being absolutely sure god exists and 7 being absolutely sure god doesn't exist, even Richard Dawkins has himself on a 6

 

We know lots right now, the more we find out the more the god myth will be debunked (imo).

 

Putting on my devil's avocado hat, I'm not sure if that's going to be the case particularly if you exclude earth science from the mix.

Your (homo sapiens) brain developed somewhere in Africa for the intents purpose of keeping you alive, it didn't evolve to understand the complexity of the physical and metaphysical universe.

If you are serious about Darwin's theories you have to believe that outside that world where your brain evolved, things might be very weird and counter intuitive and that is entirely what, (also using technology not just sensory perceptions) science is finding, time speeding up and slowing down depending on how close to the speed of light you are travelling, black holes, particles that can be in two places at the same time, all theoretical but all testable and extremely mental to the average homo sapiens brain.

We seem to have been for a long time now stuck in the thinking that its either god and a plan, or science and no plan, surely now we must see the possibilities are infinite.

[Cornish Steve]

Anybody have a solid enough understanding of quantum physics enough to debunk it's potential in explaining a lot of things that religion touches upon?

 

Without meaning to drop names, I'm friends with a leading quantum physicist who is also a wonderful Christian man. It's very interesting that many who lead their respective fields in science today are devout Christians. They just choose to live a quiet life, though, ignoring (like me) the jibes of those who choose to dismiss. I would ask one thing, though: If religion is little more than a crutch to help the weak-minded, as many suggest, how come there are more Christians in China today than there are people in the UK and Benelux countries combined - especially when they are taught otherwise by the state, picked on, imprisoned, discriminated against, and sometimes outright killed?

 

I apologize for my part in taking this thread down a rabbit trail. The wise man was right when he suggested that we never discuss religion or politics in polite company.

[EFC-Paul]

Nothing wrong with taking it there Steve it's one of the biggest debates in modern history and its good to gauge others views

Edited June 8, 2017 by EFC-Paul

[EFC-Paul]

Putting on my devil's avocado hat

You were coming across so well Chach probably my favourite poster on the subject yet you wear a hat made from avocado's.... You've lost me mate I can't take you seriously ?

Edited June 8, 2017 by EFC-Paul

[Chach]

 

Without meaning to drop names, I'm friends with a leading quantum physicist who is also a wonderful Christian man. It's very interesting that many who lead their respective fields in science today are devout Christians. They just choose to live a quiet life, though, ignoring (like me) the jibes of those who choose to dismiss. I would ask one thing, though: If religion is little more than a crutch to help the weak-minded, as many suggest, how come there are more Christians in China today than there are people in the UK and Benelux countries combined - especially when they are taught otherwise by the state, picked on, imprisoned, discriminated against, and sometimes outright killed?

 

I apologize for my part in taking this thread down a rabbit trail. The wise man was right when he suggested that we never discuss religion or politics in polite company.

 

Where are you getting those figures from re China, can you provide a source?

 

Also you've said previously that we shouldn't confuse Christians with evangelical Christians in the US, is there in your opinion a "correct" form of Christianity? If so, what is that form and how did you/they arrive at that opinion?