Blue Bill's shiny new stadium at the docks...

[Palfy]

30 minutes ago, Newty82 said:

100% agree with the sentiment of what you're saying.

But I'll still say that PLCs will do all they can to pay as little tax as possible.

That's just business.

They would try and pay as little tax as possible, but just not by devaluation of their profits.  
Yet I as a sole trader and not a PLC would do what I could to make my profits disappear so as to pay less tax, all above board and legal of course

[StevO]

51 minutes ago, Newty82 said:

100% agree with the sentiment of what you're saying.

But I'll still say that PLCs will do all they can to pay as little tax as possible.

That's just business.

The company I work for normally loses a million or two in the UK each year. We have two head offices, one in Germany and one in Switzerland. Both profitable, often in ten figures.  
Last year they “accidentally” were on track to make a profit in the UK, they gave everyone £500.

Finished the year with a loss of about £100k. 

[Matt]

3 minutes ago, StevO said:

The company I work for normally loses a million or two in the UK each year. We have two head offices, one in Germany and one in Switzerland. Both profitable, often in ten figures.  
Last year they “accidentally” were on track to make a profit in the UK, they gave everyone £500.

Finished the year with a loss of about £100k. 

Didn't Uber only turn a profit this year after a decade? 

[Palfy]

37 minutes ago, StevO said:

The company I work for normally loses a million or two in the UK each year. We have two head offices, one in Germany and one in Switzerland. Both profitable, often in ten figures.  
Last year they “accidentally” were on track to make a profit in the UK, they gave everyone £500.

Finished the year with a loss of about £100k. 

Why don’t they want to make a profit in the UK?

[Newty82]

1 hour ago, Palfy said:

Why don’t they want to make a profit in the UK?

Tax.

[Newty82]

2 hours ago, Palfy said:

They would try and pay as little tax as possible, but just not by devaluation of their profits.  
Yet I as a sole trader and not a PLC would do what I could to make my profits disappear so as to pay less tax, all above board and legal of course

Hmmmm. Dunno. Shareholders know the game.

I do the same as a Sole Trader too. I'll pay what is due in Tax but I'll reduce it as much as possible. But then, however I decide to do that will be taxed somewhere along the way anyway.

It's a good way to keep the money flowing I guess.

[StevO]

1 hour ago, Palfy said:

Why don’t they want to make a profit in the UK?

They sell the stock to the UK from Germany and Switzerland, make the profits on the inter company sale. Very little tax paid in Germany and Switzerland.

Breakeven in the UK, less tax to pay.
No shareholders to pay dividends, the family at the top of the group keeping the profit. 

[Palfy]

1 minute ago, StevO said:

They sell the stock to the UK from Germany and Switzerland, make the profits on the inter company sale. Very little tax paid in Germany and Switzerland.

Breakeven in the UK, less tax to pay.
No shareholders to pay dividends, the family at the top of the group keeping the profit. 

That makes sense but wouldn’t if they were a PLC, plus a nice little bonus for the employees in the UK. 

[StevO]

4 minutes ago, Palfy said:

That makes sense but wouldn’t if they were a PLC, plus a nice little bonus for the employees in the UK. 

Just one man at the top, and his four kids (I say kids, they are all around retirement age). He’s very adverse to paying tax. Threatened to move the company offices out of Germany into Switzerland to cut a deal with the government. It worked too. 
 

The extra £500 was nice though

[RuffRob]

Typical profit margin for contractors in the heavy civils construction industry is closer to around 5%. If a contractor came away with a clear 5% profit on a project of this value he will be very happy.

 

[Palfy]

3 hours ago, RuffRob said:

Typical profit margin for contractors in the heavy civils construction industry is closer to around 5%. If a contractor came away with a clear 5% profit on a project of this value he will be very happy.

 

Spot on I’ve worked in this industry pretty much all my working life, and personally no a lot of MDs for large companies in the construction industry, I’ve had this conversation with them over many years, they aim for a net profit of 5~8% on their turnover. 
When I hear people saying Laing can afford to cover the cost of 30% plus rise in material costs because they are making 60% profit I have to say something because I know they are way off the mark. 

[Romey 1878]

https://www.liverpoolecho.co.uk/sport/football/football-news/walked-around-new-everton-stadium-28850232

[Matt]

5 minutes ago, Romey 1878 said:

https://www.liverpoolecho.co.uk/sport/football/football-news/walked-around-new-everton-stadium-28850232

Decent read if you can get past the junk

[RuffRob]

10 hours ago, Palfy said:

Spot on I’ve worked in this industry pretty much all my working life, and personally no a lot of MDs for large companies in the construction industry, I’ve had this conversation with them over many years, they aim for a net profit of 5~8% on their turnover. 
When I hear people saying Laing can afford to cover the cost of 30% plus rise in material costs because they are making 60% profit I have to say something because I know they are way off the mark. 

yeah, I have also worked for 25 years in the heavy civils industry, although more on the design side. Very tight margins in this type of construction and actually hard to turn a profit and generally a high risk of losing money. Important that you sort a good contract our at the beginning.  Laing will have sorted a decent contract out give the cost of living crisis kicking in and Everton's financial model of not actually having all the funds in place when Contract was drawn up.

[RuffRob]

51 minutes ago, Romey 1878 said:

https://www.liverpoolecho.co.uk/sport/football/football-news/walked-around-new-everton-stadium-28850232

The more I read (and see) about the stadium, I can't help think how did the club seem to get so much so right with this project (maybe bar the financing), yet fucked pretty much every other aspect of the club up so badly. You wouldn't think its the same club. 

The location is brillient - right on the edge of the iconic Mersy and in the heart of the docks on which the city was built and is famous for.

So much effort and consideration has been made with the regard to getting the best possible atmosphere out of it when its full of Evertonians. Once the bums are on seats and the whistle goes for kick off - how the place 'feels' for those the 90mins (or 100mins these days) is probabley the one if not the most important things for both the fan attending and the player wearing the blue shirt. We have heard so much negative comments from fans moving in to new shiny yet soulless stadiums. If we are potentially playing in it for argubley a 100years, I am so glad so much attention has been paid to this aspect of the stadium. Proof will be in the pudding though .

It also sounds like so much thought has gone in to the revenue it can generate both on match days and beyond. Litttle things like making a the 'tunnel' resturant area with high game to game availablity so the buzz in the area doesn't become stale just with to much corporate hospitality is a nice touch.

Some seasons ticket seats at £50,000 a pair. If some people got the money and happy to spend it then get them sat down.

I think the design if clever, with the lower rectanguar brick clad area extending out further than the traditional stadium oval bowl shape. Doing this they have created so much more practical and usable space and importantly revenue producing space, which over the year and decades will hold us in good stead. It might not be the 'sexiest' looking design as ultra modern stadiums go, but the stadium has it's own unique look and feel about it - It also look like is belongs in this location. I do like the fact it has very destincive sides and vistas to it and with a well thought out lighting system to it (I assume will be a gives), its going to look amazing for night games.

The stadium is not overly flashy, but is innoative and practical, it would not be suprise to see much of it copied on other future new grounds. 

[Romey 1878]

1 hour ago, Matt said:

Decent read if you can get past the junk

I've already told you how you get rid of that.

[Matt]

1 minute ago, Romey 1878 said:

I've already told you how you get rid of that.

I know

 

[Shukes]

On 18/03/2024 at 08:48, Palfy said:

Here’s the last 3 years of Laing O’Rourke accounts. 
2023 turnover £3.6B  Loss £288M

2022 turnover £3.1B   Profit £2.7M

2021  turnover £2.6.   Profit £41.0M

2020. turnover £2.5.   Profit  £46.0M

Laing are the largest construction company in Europe with offices in the Middle East and Australia, where they deliver some of the biggest projects in those countries. 
They explain the biggest reason for their loss in 2023 was the higher than expected rate of material costs, and the increase in labour costs, added by fixed rate contracts on 2 contracts neither which was Bramley more which isn’t fixed as touted by the club to try and make DBB look competent as the CEO. 
You are right about the NHS but remember they are not PLC trying to deliver profits for their shareholders. 
Looking at their Profits and I put 2020 in because in was their best performing year for many years, it doesn’t read any where near your assumptions. 
I would guess that they go in at tender stage of about 20-25% gross on average, and after over heads would be happy with 4-5% net profit and would be ecstatic with anything over that. 
Shukes mate get your CV off to them  if you can deliver them the margins you believe they should be making, they'd make you Commercial Director in an instant

You’re easily fooled mate. Being on this business I would expect more savvy. 
 

Any business has at least 20% over staffed and unneeded administration. After all it’s how people like myself make money. 
 

Great example is the NHS. Their own department will quote them £12k to put in an automated door. Not making this up either, i tendered for the work. 
My quote was £3.5k or thereabouts. I would have still made around 40% gross on that, which again would work out around 12% net. After all the politics, they went with their own department. 
 

This kind of thing happens through all large corps and businesses. 
I know many people that work for Phillips and get paid a good whack. They will still tell you that their job isn’t really needed and that it’s just to fill up the quota of civil engineers the company needs.

Does your company run at 4% net? 
I’ve always been told if it lies beneath 12% then I should think about doing something else haha. 
 

Though mine is very small so I do need to make more of a profit, so that could be where I’m confusing what’s needed. 
 

4% for me is a few quid haha.

4% for Laings could be millions.

[Palfy]

41 minutes ago, Shukes said:

You’re easily fooled mate. Being on this business I would expect more savvy. 
 

Any business has at least 20% over staffed and unneeded administration. After all it’s how people like myself make money. 
 

Great example is the NHS. Their own department will quote them £12k to put in an automated door. Not making this up either, i tendered for the work. 
My quote was £3.5k or thereabouts. I would have still made around 40% gross on that, which again would work out around 12% net. After all the politics, they went with their own department. 
 

This kind of thing happens through all large corps and businesses. 
I know many people that work for Phillips and get paid a good whack. They will still tell you that their job isn’t really needed and that it’s just to fill up the quota of civil engineers the company needs.

Does your company run at 4% net? 
I’ve always been told if it lies beneath 12% then I should think about doing something else haha. 
 

Though mine is very small so I do need to make more of a profit, so that could be where I’m confusing what’s needed. 
 

4% for me is a few quid haha.

4% for Laings could be millions.

I’m like you I go in at around 30-35% above what I my cost of labour and materials will be, if it’s a big value contract I will be prepared to negotiate and come down to 20-25%, and I will also drop to keep my labour and stop a competitor that I don’t want to get the contract. 
My pretax profit after everything is stripped out is generally around the low to mid 20%, as people who own our own businesses, we try to keep control of our outlay and none productive costs, because it’s our personal income that’s being spent. 
Bigger business do suffer hugely from none prod costs that’s inevitable, to try and control this they take on more management and give them targets to meet with the carrot of bonuses, all of which had to the none prod costs, big isn’t always beautiful the people you have the greater chance the money runs through there fingers, especially for certain industries when there is a financial crisis, and never more so than for the construction industry, and car industry. 

[Romey 1878]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sounds/play/p0hkwhv6

[StevO]

On 20/03/2024 at 11:38, RuffRob said:

The more I read (and see) about the stadium, I can't help think how did the club seem to get so much so right with this project (maybe bar the financing), yet fucked pretty much every other aspect of the club up so badly. You wouldn't think it’s the same club. 

Hiring Dan Meis, Laing O’Rourke and Colin Chong is how they got it right. 
Colin has been the driving force. As he was an Evertonian and worked high up at LoR for a long time before joining the club he is ideal to oversee the project. Amazing what can happen when you hire experts to do things they know best. 

[Palfy]

33 minutes ago, StevO said:

Hiring Dan Meis, Laing O’Rourke and Colin Chong is how they got it right. 
Colin has been the driving force. As he was an Evertonian and worked high up at LoR for a long time before joining the club he is ideal to oversee the project. Amazing what can happen when you hire experts to do things they know best. 

The reason the build is going so well is because of design and contractor as you rightly say, put them two together and you get a great product. 
But the reality financially is we were never in a position to take this project on in the first place, created by the amount of money the club lost over years of reckless spending. 
So yes it’s a stunning Stadium, yet the down side is it has or will contributed around 800 million of debt to the club, which has a debt of around 1.2 billion and rising, we are getting close I believe to having one of the best Stadiums in Europe on the banks of the Mersey without a club to play in it.  
Sometimes the dream isn’t worth the reality.  

[StevO]

6 minutes ago, Palfy said:

The reason the build is going so well is because of design and contractor as you rightly say, put them two together and you get a great product. 
But the reality financially is we were never in a position to take this project on in the first place, created by the amount of money the club lost over years of reckless spending. 
So yes it’s a stunning Stadium, yet the down side is it has or will contributed around 800 million of debt to the club, which has a debt of around 1.2 billion and rising, we are getting close I believe to having one of the best Stadiums in Europe on the banks of the Mersey without a club to play in it.  
Sometimes the dream isn’t worth the reality.  

Moshiri/Usmanov are the financial reasons we got it off the ground. 
Something to be grateful for to a bad owner after he’s gone. 

[Palfy]

39 minutes ago, StevO said:

Moshiri/Usmanov are the financial reasons we got it off the ground. 
Something to be grateful for to a bad owner after he’s gone. 

All they did is loan and borrow the money the debt is still there, as a club we can’t afford the interest on the loans that weren’t interest free from Moshiri, financially it could be our greatest downfall and not our greatest achievement. It could very realistically come down to a new Stadium and a new team playing in it.

So let’s kick off a new thread if we are made bankrupt and the club cease to be, and think of a new name to replace the old. 
Steve I love the new stadium but for me it was never as important as the club, and on the basis we definitely where not in a good financial position to start it, without placing the club in such financial troubles that it could be contributing hugely to our downfall we should have moth balled it.
But Moshiri ploughed on even after the Usmanov money was gone, be cause he is reckless with the club and now that he’s dug this big cesspool that he knows he can’t fill in he’s jumping ship.
I think commercially it was the wrong decision to build a new ground and this moment in time, because ot the damage created by those you give credit too. 

[StevO]

1 hour ago, Palfy said:

All they did is loan and borrow the money the debt is still there, as a club we can’t afford the interest on the loans that weren’t interest free from Moshiri, financially it could be our greatest downfall and not our greatest achievement. It could very realistically come down to a new Stadium and a new team playing in it.

So let’s kick off a new thread if we are made bankrupt and the club cease to be, and think of a new name to replace the old. 
Steve I love the new stadium but for me it was never as important as the club, and on the basis we definitely where not in a good financial position to start it, without placing the club in such financial troubles that it could be contributing hugely to our downfall we should have moth balled it.
But Moshiri ploughed on even after the Usmanov money was gone, be cause he is reckless with the club and now that he’s dug this big cesspool that he knows he can’t fill in he’s jumping ship.
I think commercially it was the wrong decision to build a new ground and this moment in time, because ot the damage created by those you give credit too. 

That is true, they loaned and borrowed the money (billionaires don’t like to use their own money) but then being so wealthy is what has led to us being able to borrow that money. Our previous owner would have struggled to borrow so much, Moshiri has the wealth to guarantee it. 
 

The stadium being built isn’t what has put the club in financial trouble as such, the man pulling the strings has put us in trouble by how the club has been run. Not be building the stadium. It’s the one things he’s got right from start to finish in my opinion. 

[Palfy]

1 hour ago, StevO said:

That is true, they loaned and borrowed the money (billionaires don’t like to use their own money) but then being so wealthy is what has led to us being able to borrow that money. Our previous owner would have struggled to borrow so much, Moshiri has the wealth to guarantee it. 
 

The stadium being built isn’t what has put the club in financial trouble as such, the man pulling the strings has put us in trouble by how the club has been run. Not be building the stadium. It’s the one things he’s got right from start to finish in my opinion. 

But the financial difficulties were there before the stadium started, we should have bought the site started the build and stopped after filling the dock in, and then the planning permission wouldn’t have runout after 3 years because once you commence the build there is then no limits on when you have to finish, and then when the club was in a more stable position on the pitch and off it you restart the build, what has happened is we have taken on an 800 million loan on top of the 300-400 million already owed to Moshiri. 
Moshiri asn’t signed as guarantor on these loans, they’ve been signed off against Everton and the the company set up for the stadium. 
Your acting like I’m against us not having a new stadium you couldn’t be more wrong. 
I don’t believe that the stadium should have progressed past the filling off the dock until we were in sound financial position to pay for it, because the cost borrowing on top of all the other borrowing is killing us, and at this moment in time I would rather have a functioning football club than a new stadium that could potentially put the club out of business. 
Because trust me Moshiri isn’t going to take the debt on in his own name that’s just not happening end of.  

[StevO]

55 minutes ago, Palfy said:

Your acting like I’m against us not having a new stadium you couldn’t be more wrong. 
 

It’s Saturday afternoon, Everton aren’t getting beaten, I can’t be arsed getting into the depths of how badly run the club is. We’ve got a well earned weekend off. 
 

But the bit quoted above; I’m not acting like anything. I’ve not commented on your opinion. I’ve just given mine. I’ve not criticised yours. You may think your opinion sounds like you’re against a new stadium, but I’ve not commented on anything about that.  

Without Moshiri I don’t believe the stadium happens, he may not be the name on the loans but the company he owns is. I believe with a poorer owner we get worse interest rates. That’s just my opinion from seeing how it happened in the past. 

[Shukes]

On 21/03/2024 at 13:53, Palfy said:

I’m like you I go in at around 30-35% above what I my cost of labour and materials will be, if it’s a big value contract I will be prepared to negotiate and come down to 20-25%, and I will also drop to keep my labour and stop a competitor that I don’t want to get the contract. 
My pretax profit after everything is stripped out is generally around the low to mid 20%, as people who own our own businesses, we try to keep control of our outlay and none productive costs, because it’s our personal income that’s being spent. 
Bigger business do suffer hugely from none prod costs that’s inevitable, to try and control this they take on more management and give them targets to meet with the carrot of bonuses, all of which had to the none prod costs, big isn’t always beautiful the people you have the greater chance the money runs through there fingers, especially for certain industries when there is a financial crisis, and never more so than for the construction industry, and car industry. 

I think I suffered from this when I tried to expand. There was so much more to think about. It destroyed me if I’m honest. I struggled to keep my sanity. 

I Still think larger company’s seem to have so much dead weight though. So much wasted money on jobs that just aren’t needed. But I understand it’s a way of securing budgets for the next year. 
 

Im trying my best to start again and hope that the knowledge I’ve gained helps me out this time. But knowing me…. I’ll do the sale again haha.

[Palfy]

43 minutes ago, Shukes said:

I think I suffered from this when I tried to expand. There was so much more to think about. It destroyed me if I’m honest. I struggled to keep my sanity. 

I Still think larger company’s seem to have so much dead weight though. So much wasted money on jobs that just aren’t needed. But I understand it’s a way of securing budgets for the next year. 
 

Im trying my best to start again and hope that the knowledge I’ve gained helps me out this time. But knowing me…. I’ll do the sale again haha.

You won’t make the same mistakes again mate, trust me when I say some of the most talented and successful people have experienced some form of failure in their first business, that’s how you grow and develop Shukes never look at failure as just a bad thing, learn from it and you will stronger for it. 
You still have a lot of years in front of you mate so plenty of time to get where you want to be, and the biggest thing you have going for you is that you are genuinely a really nice person, and everyone is captivated by them traits. Good luck mate your a top man

[Shukes]

Appreciate that Palfy. Thank you. 
I think I’ll need a bit more than luck though haha. But thank you, a kind word can be inspiring.