Blue Bill's shiny new stadium at the docks...

[duncanmckenzieismagic]

https://www.footballfancast.com/bramley-moore-dock-stadium-capacity-everton-stadium-latest/ 

[duncanmckenzieismagic]

https://www.goodisonnews.com/2024/04/07/swiss-based-businessman-ready-to-buy-new-everton-stadium-at-bramley-moore-dock-in-deal-with-777/

[Romey 1878]

13 minutes ago, duncanmckenzieismagic said:

https://www.goodisonnews.com/2024/04/07/swiss-based-businessman-ready-to-buy-new-everton-stadium-at-bramley-moore-dock-in-deal-with-777/

How on earth is the club not owning the stadium, and therefore missing out on revenue, a good thing?

[duncanmckenzieismagic]

2 hours ago, Romey 1878 said:

How on earth is the club not owning the stadium, and therefore missing out on revenue, a good thing?

My thoughts exactly

[Romey 1878]

2 hours ago, duncanmckenzieismagic said:

My thoughts exactly

I couldn't actually believe what I was reading in that article when they were making out that this would be a positive.

It would completely negate the reason we're building the stadium.

[Hafnia]

1 minute ago, Romey 1878 said:

I couldn't actually believe what I was reading in that article when they were making out that this would be a positive.

It would completely negate the reason we're building the stadium.

I'd need to understand the mechanics of how it works. On the surface it doesn't sound good. 

[Palfy]

2 hours ago, Hafnia said:

I'd need to understand the mechanics of how it works. On the surface it doesn't sound good. 

I think how it works is it’s looking like selling the Stadium or go out of business, the worst owner in our history and probably English football as well and truly screwed us. 
As I’ve been saying in another thread building the stadium was financially irresponsible at the time, we should have bought the ground got the planning which would have lasted 3 years or indefinitely if we made a start then pulled the plug on it till it was financially responsible to carry on.

Now the stark reality means Club or Stadium, I know what one I want, but if Moshiri had done as I said we could have had both, it may have taken another 5-10 years until we found owners who could turn the clubs finances round and then build the stadium. 

[Shukes]

Just doing a quick google search it seems not many clubs in the premier league actually own their own stadium. 
 

As an example, even the Etihad is a joint venture between Man City and the local borough.

[Newty82]

3 hours ago, Palfy said:

I think how it works is it’s looking like selling the Stadium or go out of business, the worst owner in our history and probably English football as well and truly screwed us. 
As I’ve been saying in another thread building the stadium was financially irresponsible at the time, we should have bought the ground got the planning which would have lasted 3 years or indefinitely if we made a start then pulled the plug on it till it was financially responsible to carry on.

Now the stark reality means Club or Stadium, I know what one I want, but if Moshiri had done as I said we could have had both, it may have taken another 5-10 years until we found owners who could turn the clubs finances round and then build the stadium. 

To be fair, though, I think at the time all was 'OK'. As in, a certain Russian was in the background putting money in in various ways.

So, financially, they probably had a plan and that was sound.

[MikeO]

3 hours ago, Palfy said:

As I’ve been saying in another thread building the stadium was financially irresponsible at the time, we should have bought the ground got the planning which would have lasted 3 years or indefinitely if we made a start then pulled the plug on it till it was financially responsible to carry on.

If we'd have started and then stopped it'd more than likely have never been completed.

[Palfy]

1 hour ago, MikeO said:

If we'd have started and then stopped it'd more than likely have never been completed.

Maybe not in our lifetime, but what’s more important having a new stadium or a solvent club. Now we face the possibility of going into voluntary liquidation and if not accepted by the majority of creditors could turn into bankruptcy and the end of the club. 
Or the stadium being taken over by a company who then lets it to us, and takes all the profits from other ventures in the Stadium. 
Moshiri has gambled with our club ever since he took control, now I know more than most that in business most big decisions are in essence a gamble, but they are educated gambles, and in my eyes when you are already 450 million in debt you don’t take on another 800 million of debt and call it an educated gamble, without even having the finances in place to fund the debt. 
Newty said he felt the money was in position from Usmanov which it possibly was, but Usmanov was sanctioned before we had completed filling the dock with sand, the sensible thing would have to put a hold on the build when the dock was fully prepared until we were in a more stable position financially. 

[plaidharper]

As always, whenever goodisonnews.com writes a story, I immediately ignore it. That site is bonkers and written by fans of other clubs.

[Haiku]

20 hours ago, Palfy said:

Newty said he felt the money was in position from Usmanov which it possibly was, but Usmanov was sanctioned before we had completed filling the dock with sand, the sensible thing would have to put a hold on the build when the dock was fully prepared until we were in a more stable position financially. 

When Usmanov was sanctioned the loan deals had already been finalized along with agreements with Laing O'Rourke and other subcontractors. At that point there was no turning back or putting the construction on hold.

[Palfy]

20 minutes ago, Haiku said:

When Usmanov was sanctioned the loan deals had already been finalized along with agreements with Laing O'Rourke and other subcontractors. At that point there was no turning back or putting the construction on hold.

The loan deals hadn’t been completely finalised hence MSP bailing us out for hundreds of millions and 777 giving us nearly 2 hundred million towards the stadium, and we still have a shortfall of some where between 1 and 200 million and need to borrow more to get it completed. When Usmanov was sanctioned and the position the stadium was in you could have renegotiated with Laing and come to an agreement on work completed, and costed costs that Laing can prove they’ve incurred, and if no agreement could be reached it would then go to arbitration to be settled. But we couldn’t have been forced to carry on, and the fraction of the cost to settle with Laing wouldn’t have seen somewhere near 1.1-1.2 billion in debt. 

[Newty82]

21 hours ago, Palfy said:

Newty said he felt the money was in position from Usmanov which it possibly was, but Usmanov was sanctioned before we had completed filling the dock with sand, the sensible thing would have to put a hold on the build when the dock was fully prepared until we were in a more stable position financially. 

Potentially in position...I try not to be definitive with my opinion because it's just that. My opinion.

I don't know enough about what goes on at the club to say for sure.

To split hairs...Usmanov was sanctioned about a month after we'd finished filling the dock.

Usmanov also continues to appeal his sanctions. Possibly, maybe, at the time he didn't think he'd be cut off so bad.

Plus, possibly, I can't imagine we can just stop and not have some sort of fee to pay or something along those lines.

I'm not convinced any of these things, the size of the project, the years of planning etc, are just a simple 'lay down your shovels lads, jobs fucked'

Nothing is ever as black and white as that.

But, I'm also a million miles away from having any knowledge of how stadium builds work!

[Palfy]

7 minutes ago, Newty82 said:

Potentially in position...I try not to be definitive with my opinion because it's just that. My opinion.

I don't know enough about what goes on at the club to say for sure.

To split hairs...Usmanov was sanctioned about a month after we'd finished filling the dock.

Usmanov also continues to appeal his sanctions. Possibly, maybe, at the time he didn't think he'd be cut off so bad.

Plus, possibly, I can't imagine we can just stop and not have some sort of fee to pay or something along those lines.

I'm not convinced any of these things, the size of the project, the years of planning etc, are just a simple 'lay down your shovels lads, jobs fucked'

Nothing is ever as black and white as that.

But, I'm also a million miles away from having any knowledge of how stadium builds work!

I’ve covered most of what you have mentioned above. 

[Newty82]

6 minutes ago, Palfy said:

I’ve covered most of what you have mentioned above. 

True.

So with your experience in the trade, how much would we of had to pay if we put the shovels down? How would the agreement be made up? Is it a percentage of total costs? What would a normal contract look like?

[Palfy]

8 hours ago, Newty82 said:

True.

So with your experience in the trade, how much would we of had to pay if we put the shovels down? How would the agreement be made up? Is it a percentage of total costs? What would a normal contract look like?

Firstly they would be paid for the work completed to date, then they would try and negotiate a payment to cover any costs that they had occurred, if they couldn’t reach an agreement they would then refer to the contract, which wouldn’t say that Everton couldn’t stop the build due to financial constraints or difficulties, it wouldn’t say that if Everton did force Laing to stop the works that Laing would be paid a specific percentage of the contract costs. 
It would state the both parties should enter talks to reach an agreement, if no agreement can be reached then it goes to arbitration, where both parties will make a submission to the arbitrator who is a trained barrister or Judge who has extensive knowledge in contractual disputes, Laing would be pushing for loss of earnings, which they would undoubtedly win, that means they will be only entitled to what they made as a percentage of profits from their last full set of accounts, so let’s they there last set of accounts showed a net profit of 3% and the signed contract value for the Stadium build was 500 million, they would be entitled to a loss of earnings of 15 million and for any works completed. 

[Haiku]

4 hours ago, Palfy said:

Firstly they would be paid for the work completed to date, then they would try and negotiate a payment to cover any costs that they had occurred, if they couldn’t reach an agreement they would then refer to the contract, which wouldn’t say that Everton couldn’t stop the build due to financial constraints or difficulties, it wouldn’t say that if Everton did force Laing to stop the works that Laing would be paid a specific percentage of the contract costs. 
It would state the both parties should enter talks to reach an agreement, if no agreement can be reached then it goes to arbitration, where both parties will make a submission to the arbitrator who is a trained barrister or Judge who has extensive knowledge in contractual disputes, Laing would be pushing for loss of earnings, which they would undoubtedly win, that means they will be only entitled to what they made as a percentage of profits from their last full set of accounts, so let’s they there last set of accounts showed a net profit of 3% and the signed contract value for the Stadium build was 500 million, they would be entitled to a loss of earnings of 15 million and for any works completed. 

You're going into details that we don't know if they're applicable in this case. Still, I don't see the point, especially since the loans for the majority of the construction were secured. Either way the club owes that money plus interest. In my opinion, it is best for the stadium to start operating as soon as possible and begin generating revenue. Additionally, this stadium is a huge asset that could eventually be sold to cover the obligations. Getting a massive loan and abandoning / delaying indefinitely your investment plans is far worse from a financial standpoint.

Valencia did something similar to what you suggested, and it has not been going well for them for over 15 years already. But they are lucky to be playing in an inferior league and have avoided relegation numerous times.

Valencia’s Nou Mestalla ‘ghost ground’: After 15-year delay, will it finally be built? - The Athletic

[Shukes]

The build will be under contract, not pay as you go.

There will also be a consideration for resources, if this is not met they will most certainly be a charge as the resources would need to be reallocated. 
 

contractors on sites that size don’t work on day rate, but on contracts.

[RuffRob]

the lions share of the stadium is now compleate - so I would hazard a guess that the biggest bills have been paid. The stadium will get finished. 

Reading a recent article on 777 Partners as the owners of Genoa, 777 are working on ensuring they acquire the ownership and rights to their home stadium from the local authority, seeing it as a pivital way to generate revenue. The are looking to invest £100m in upgrading the venue to UEFA grade IV category standard and so non sporting event can be staged there. They want visitor to the Genoa stadium to be spend a hour before and an hour after event in and around the venue location spending and generating extra revenue. The article on what they are currently doing at Genoa is a interesting read. 

I really don't see 777 Partners selling off the stadium and then them and Everton just feeding of the crumb. Short term to get the deal over the line possibley maybe (5 years or so).  I think the new stadium is a massive draw to 777 Partners - it will be the cornerstone of how this club gets turned around. 

[StevO]

Something a bit different, you can move the camera around and have a look.

Not the highest resolution, but i'm just having a go now, its a bit of fun.

 

 

[Matt]

28 minutes ago, StevO said:

Something a bit different, you can move the camera around and have a look.

Not the highest resolution, but i'm just having a go now, its a bit of fun.

 

 

That is seriously fucking cool. 

The technology behind that is mind-blowingly impressive too.

[Newty82]

1 hour ago, StevO said:

Something a bit different, you can move the camera around and have a look.

Not the highest resolution, but i'm just having a go now, its a bit of fun.

 

 

Mega that. And the stadium.

Well worth a billion debt  

[Palfy]

4 hours ago, StevO said:

Something a bit different, you can move the camera around and have a look.

Not the highest resolution, but i'm just having a go now, its a bit of fun.

 

 

 

3 hours ago, Newty82 said:

Mega that. And the stadium.

Well worth a billion debt  

 

3 hours ago, Matt said:

That is seriously fucking cool. 

The technology behind that is mind-blowingly impressive too.

I think you 3 need to get out a bit more

[Romey 1878]

1 hour ago, Palfy said:

 

 

I think you 3 need to get out a bit more

Says the fella that wanted to know how much the stadium weighs!

[Palfy]

18 minutes ago, Romey 1878 said:

Says the fella that wanted to know how much the stadium weighs!

I did I hold my hands up, but Ste couldn’t answer my question but gave me the weight of some other building, I can only assume that when they do go out I’m probably there as well. 
Any how can anyone tell once completed what the stadium will weigh. 

[Romey 1878]

 

[Matt]

25 minutes ago, Romey 1878 said:

 

Better than I expected if true 

[Palfy]

53 minutes ago, Romey 1878 said:

 

Fingers crossed it works out that way