A societal shift

[Palfy]

1 hour ago, MikeO said:

I don't think anyone is talking about abolishing the police without putting something else in its place, it's about changing attitudes and procedures. Of course some form of law enforcement will always be needed.

That 

 

1 hour ago, Cornish Steve said:

I'm not a supporter of abolishing the police at all, although I can understand the movement to completely reform police funding and methods. Three police officers live in our neighborhood, and I wish them nothing but good.

I'm not an expert at all on this topic, but I would mention one thing. Several observers have noted how the police have been militarized. For example, many police forces use private training companies run by veterans of the Gulf War, and they use lessons learned on the streets of Iraq, Afghanistan, and elsewhere in devising their methods. This is not a good trend. An army in a foreign country is very different from public servants at home who swear to protect and serve.

I agree that is in appropriate and disproportionate for on the beat policing, and undoubtedly there are problems in the police force, and rather than abolishing police you need to try and address what’s wrong, the police force like any institution isn’t perfect put the vast majority of those in it or good people committed serving the people. Where do you stop should we abolish religion because not everyone who’s religious as the morals that they suppose to live up to, of course you don’t you oust out the bad apples to help preserve those who do the good. 
My biggest concern is that no one seems to care about the amount of police officers who are gunned down every year most of them with young families, go on Officer Down Memorial Page and look at how many have been murdered over the years, now I’m not trying to advocate two wrongs make a right, but give them some credit they are dying to protect your communities. 

[MikeO]

9 minutes ago, Palfy said:

My biggest concern is that no one seems to care about the amount of police officers who are gunned down every year most of them with young families, go on Officer Down Memorial Page and look at how many have been murdered over the years

I think that people do care but at the same time people who choose a career in the police, the same as people who join the armed forces, are making the choice to do something that is likely to put their life on the line on occasions. It's part of the job description unlike Joe Public when they're victims of over-zealous (to be polite) authority.

I remember a soldier who died in the Falkland conflict, he was co-opted as a medic but his main purpose in life was playing the trumpet in his regimental band and his family response after he was killed was "he only joined up to play the trumpet". Had sympathy but it's in the job description.

[Cornish Steve]

12 hours ago, Palfy said:

There is a web page called ODMP it lists how many police officers have been killed by shooting every year up to 2020 in the USA, it also gives the name of the officer and what happened in the incident 

And there's also this database...

https://www.washingtonpost.com/graphics/investigations/police-shootings-database/

[Palfy]

20 minutes ago, MikeO said:

I think that people do care but at the same time people who choose a career in the police, the same as people who join the armed forces, are making the choice to do something that is likely to put their life on the line on occasions. It's part of the job description unlike Joe Public when they're victims of over-zealous (to be polite) authority.

I remember a soldier who died in the Falkland conflict, he was co-opted as a medic but his main purpose in life was playing the trumpet in his regimental band and his family response after he was killed was "he only joined up to play the trumpet". Had sympathy but it's in the job description.

Well if we are saying that the streets are a battle ground for police officers and they should except that they could be murdered carrying out their duty’s, then should we not except or expect that some people are going to get killed mistakenly due to the life and death pressures of some of the situations police officers find themselves in, after all they are only human. 

[Palfy]

32 minutes ago, Cornish Steve said:

And there's also this database...

https://www.washingtonpost.com/graphics/investigations/police-shootings-database/

It doesn’t say how many were innocent so I assume they were genuinely breaking the law, and the fact they mentioned 6 were carrying fake guns I’m going to assume all the rest were carrying real firearms, what was you trying to prove about the police by posting this because I’m slightly confused as to what you’re motive was? Please try to remember that all police officers killed by criminals have been murdered. 

[MikeO]

40 minutes ago, Palfy said:

Well if we are saying that the streets are a battle ground for police officers and they should except that they could be murdered carrying out their duty’s, then should we not except or expect that some people are going to get killed mistakenly due to the life and death pressures of some of the situations police officers find themselves in, after all they are only human. 

They shouldn't be "only human" they should be trained to be professional at what they do. You are a professional in the buiding trade so are a step above the general public and I was a sound engineer so we both were people who knew/know our field better than the general public. The police should be the same, if you sign up you know what your're getting into.

[Palfy]

20 minutes ago, MikeO said:

They shouldn't be "only human" they should be trained to be professional at what they do. You are a professional in the buiding trade so are a step above the general public and I was a sound engineer so we both were people who knew/know our field better than the general public. The police should be the same, if you sign up you know what you're getting into.

Anything that has a human in put is going to be open to human error, none of us are perfect in all our decisions in our chosen profession, but that doesn’t make us less of a professional in our field, undoubtedly some knowingly do wrong, and some genuinely make a wrong decision. 

[Romey 1878]

1 hour ago, Palfy said:

It doesn’t say how many were innocent so I assume they were genuinely breaking the law, 

The police aren’t meant to kill guilty people either. 

[Palfy]

13 minutes ago, Romey 1878 said:

The police aren’t meant to kill guilty people either. 

I didn’t say they were meant to what made you think I said that, or were you telling me something you thought I never knew? 

[Romey 1878]

8 hours ago, Palfy said:

I didn’t say they were meant to what made you think I said that, or were you telling me something you thought I never knew? 

The fact you brought it up suggests you think that lessens the negativity surrounding any deaths that may have been caused by the police. 

If that's not what you think then fair enough. And if I was telling you something I thought you never knew, I'd write a book . 

[dunlopp9987]

21 hours ago, Palfy said:

Thanks for not taking it as a personal attack because it is a very emotive subject that can easily turn into slanging match which is not what I would want to happen so I appreciate your civility in your response, I pray Americans get the the society they deserve no matter their ethnicity or colour, but how will always be debatable, the hardest thing is to combat is hatred and prejudices that are not recognised by those who harbour them they are institutional racist if you like their belief is as strong as yours or mine, and the biggest danger they have on society is that when they die there beliefs don’t die with them they have imparted them on their children and impressionable people around them so  the cycle continues it doesn’t end. 
But we need police in our society’s I believe passionately that when my family needs help and protection the help is there. 

And this is basically the argument that abolitionists are making. If I, or my family, or your family needed the police's help, we wouldn't have to fear for our lives in calling in the police to intervene. But for Black and Brown people, they don't get that level of comfort in knowing the police will treat them as human beings. Trevor Noah summed it up perfectly on the Daily Show last night: "We're not dealing with bad apples. We're dealing with a rotten tree that happens to grow good apples." 

We have seen it time and time again, where police are called into a situation where a Black person is having a mental health crisis or emotional episode, and the police end up killing that person because they're non-compliant. An armed officer who is not trained in how to navigate a mental health crisis IS NOT THE PERSON WHO SHOULD HANDLE SAID CRISIS. 

This is one major takeaway from my learning and growth over the past year. There are so many situations where I, a straight cis white man, never have to fear for my life or worry about being accosted by the police. If I have to call the cops, I won't fear for my life (though I won't be trusting them, whatever they do.) Black and Brown people have been subjected to harassment, violence and death at the hands of the police time and time again, so that begs the question: Who do you call to protect you when the police aren't willing to do so?

[Palfy]

1 hour ago, dunlopp9987 said:

: "We're not dealing with bad apples. We're dealing with a rotten tree that happens to grow good apples." 

So you treat the tree because it’s giving you good fruit, you don’t kill or cut the tree down.

We have views that there is no place in society for racism, but our opinions differ about the the need of the police, I believe that there things that need to change in the police, and lessons to be learned, you believe and correct me if I’m wrong that the police should be abolished and that a different system implemented were communities run there own system of policing, I don’t believe that that would be any better than what we have now, you are still engaging people to monitor people who will have just as many prejudices as some  in the police force have, we have to cut out the cancer in society and educate, how we do that has always been the hardest question to answer, but abolition the police isn’t the answer.

Let’s look at football in Britain, since the BLM moment and taking the Knee unfortunately black footballers have suffered more online abuse than they personally had suffered before the the movement started, so much that clubs are temporarily closing their Twitter accounts because of the racial abuse being aimed at their black players, it’s absolutely disgusting, the people doing this live in our communities could even be our next door neighbors we just don’t know, there’s no way of distinguishing them they don’t walk round in KKK dress, yet you could abolish the police hand it over to the communities and these people will be there being involved in your new system 100%, you can’t stop them because you don’t no who they are and I can assure you that they aren’t all in the police. 

[dunlopp9987]

Closing arguments today, then the jury begins deliberation. 

Minneapolis is currently a militarized area, between the protests over Daunte Wright's murder last week and the anticipation of a potential verdict this week. There are armored trucks on street corners, national guard walking around with machine guns. And a story coming out this weekend, in the wake of the Daunte Wright protests, that some journalists and photographers have been apprehended by law enforcement, who then have photographed the journalists and their credentials. 

And just to top it off, today the Republican-held Minnesota legislature proposed this bill, which would also extend to food stamps and unemployment insurance. It likely won't pass, but this is full-on totalitarian behavior. It's reprehensible.

 

[Matt]

What the actual fuck?! "Speak up and well cripple you"? Very democratic. 

[Sibdane]

1 hour ago, dunlopp9987 said:

Closing arguments today, then the jury begins deliberation. 

Minneapolis is currently a militarized area, between the protests over Daunte Wright's murder last week and the anticipation of a potential verdict this week. There are armored trucks on street corners, national guard walking around with machine guns. And a story coming out this weekend, in the wake of the Daunte Wright protests, that some journalists and photographers have been apprehended by law enforcement, who then have photographed the journalists and their credentials. 

And just to top it off, today the Republican-held Minnesota legislature proposed this bill, which would also extend to food stamps and unemployment insurance. It likely won't pass, but this is full-on totalitarian behavior. It's reprehensible.

 

Terrible, terrible idea of a bill. It's just designed to discourage freedom of protest. 

[dunlopp9987]

Guilty on all 3 accounts. Jury deliberated for less than a day. 

I have so many thoughts, but as of right now, I am glad that George was given justice. It doesn't wipe away the fact that he is no longer with us, but this is a slight ray of hope.

[Matt]

2 minutes ago, dunlopp9987 said:

Guilty on all 3 accounts. Jury deliberated for less than a day. 

I have so many thoughts, but as of right now, I am glad that George was given justice. It doesn't wipe away the fact that he is no longer with us, but this is a slight ray of hope.

So quickly done. I honestly expected it to drag. Very pleased. 

[Romey 1878]

4 minutes ago, dunlopp9987 said:

Guilty on all 3 accounts. Jury deliberated for less than a day. 

I have so many thoughts, but as of right now, I am glad that George was given justice. It doesn't wipe away the fact that he is no longer with us, but this is a slight ray of hope.

Today just gets better and better. 

[Palfy]

56 minutes ago, dunlopp9987 said:

Guilty on all 3 accounts. Jury deliberated for less than a day. 

I have so many thoughts, but as of right now, I am glad that George was given justice. It doesn't wipe away the fact that he is no longer with us, but this is a slight ray of hope.

Justice has been done. 

[Hafnia]

His eyes were shifting all over the place when the verdict was read.  Nasty piece of work. 

Its going to take a monumental shift to change things.  Yes it will make the police think twice about murdering someone but there will be pressures on them from people who will be pushing buttons.  It's going to be a long difficult process to get this done correctly.

Law abiding citizens will be the losers in this.  Criminals will be looking to exploit any slight loosening of authority - I'm not saying brutality/murder is authority but there is going to be some very difficult situations to police properly with confidence.  We have seen this in our country - any loosening/questioning of authority brings the dregs of society out to stress test the situation.

This case has been heartbreaking, the police who stood by and allowed him to strangle George's life away are culpable.  The poor man and his family destroyed by a fascist sociopath in a police uniform. 

Its going to take done strong leadership from all corners to sort this out.  One thing is for sure - anything other than a guilty verdict would have seen America burning for the next few weeks and no doubt here too. 

[dunlopp9987]

I finally went to George Floyd Square today, where he was murdered. It's technically on the street that I live (though I've only been at this spot for about a month and the Square is about a 25 minute walk.) I am not a religious person in the slightest, but as I first stepped into the area and saw the Cup Foods and saw the murals and the flowers...it was the closest thing to a religious experience I've ever had. Instantly started crying. Was an incredibly emotional experience to be there and feel the energy and the aura that surrounds that block. 

Having grown up in the suburbs of Minneapolis and then living in the city for 8 years, this last year has been an absolute jumble of emotions. I was speaking to a friend about how it feels like Minneapolis is the present-equivalent of what Birmingham and Atlanta were during the Civil Rights Era. My hometown is the epicenter for social justice reform and activism, and I'm damn proud of that. This city has so many flaws, which were put on display to the world when they got to see how people in positions of power treat Black and Brown members of these communities. The Minneapolis Police Department is fucking trash (as I will show below with their tweet), and the income inequality and systemic racism in this area are horrendous. But maybe, just maybe, we are on our way to rectifying these injustices. 

Here is the tweet by the MPD, and to make sure that their white-supremacy bullshit isn't the last note on this post, I'll leave you with some photos I took while at George Floyd Square. Thank you all for reading, staying informed and giving support over the last year. Has really meant a lot to have friends all over this country and the world lending their support

 

[Matt]

I feel bad replying after such a heartfelt post, but I think it's relevant. 

Has anyone seen the Fucker Carlson reaction? At what point does a channel simply become a white supremacist propaganda machine and no longer "right wing media"? People can complain about the systematic racism all they like, want to reorganise and restructure etc. But so long as the fuel for it continues to be allowed under the "freedom of speech" banner, it'll never go away. 

[dunlopp9987]

7 hours ago, Matt said:

I feel bad replying after such a heartfelt post, but I think it's relevant. 

Has anyone seen the Fucker Carlson reaction? At what point does a channel simply become a white supremacist propaganda machine and no longer "right wing media"? People can complain about the systematic racism all they like, want to reorganise and restructure etc. But so long as the fuel for it continues to be allowed under the "freedom of speech" banner, it'll never go away. 

So interesting you mention that. I'm watching a docu-series on HBO about Qanon called Into the Storm, and so much of it is about the line between protecting freedom of speech, even if it's hate speech, and when it crosses over into speech that results in action (Christchurch shooting, El Paso shooting, etc.) 

Also Tucker Carlson has become a caricature of himself. 

[Matt]

25 minutes ago, dunlopp9987 said:

So interesting you mention that. I'm watching a docu-series on HBO about Qanon called Into the Storm, and so much of it is about the line between protecting freedom of speech, even if it's hate speech, and when it crosses over into speech that results in action (Christchurch shooting, El Paso shooting, etc.) 

Also Tucker Carlson has become a caricature of himself. 

Interesting. Will have a look. Its too complicated a topic to write about on a forum. 

[dunlopp9987]

Chauvin sentenced to 22.5 years, and there are still federal charges to be issued as well. Hoping with those on top of the 22.5 means he'll spend the rest of his life behind bars. 

His mother spoke before his sentencing today. Talk about white tears. I just about threw my computer across the room when she said "I believe a lengthy sentence will not serve my son well. By sentencing my son, you are also sentencing me."

[MikeO]

13 minutes ago, dunlopp9987 said:

His mother spoke before his sentencing today. Talk about white tears. I just about threw my computer across the room when she said "I believe a lengthy sentence will not serve my son well. By sentencing my son, you are also sentencing me."

She was reprehensible.

[dunlopp9987]

11 minutes ago, MikeO said:

She was reprehensible.

She never actually said "To the Floyd family, I am sorry for your loss." 

Racism is taught, and now we got to see Chauvin's first teacher.

[Cornish Steve]

I'm wearing my Black Lives Matter t-shirt today, one I had custom made. It lists the names of 12 black Americans who've been needlessly killed/murdered by the police - from Sandra Bland to Ahmaud Arbery to George Floyd - and suggests we 'remember their names'. I can sense the tension it creates in some around me, but so be it. I've received a couple of very nice comments from black members of the community.

[MikeO]

16 minutes ago, Cornish Steve said:

I'm wearing my Black Lives Matter t-shirt today, one I had custom made. It lists the names of 12 black Americans who've been needlessly killed/murdered by the police - from Sandra Bland to Ahmaud Arbery to George Floyd - and suggests we 'remember their names'. I can sense the tension it creates in some around me, but so be it. I've received a couple of very nice comments from black members of the community.

Kudos.

[dunlopp9987]

4 hours ago, Cornish Steve said:

I'm wearing my Black Lives Matter t-shirt today, one I had custom made. It lists the names of 12 black Americans who've been needlessly killed/murdered by the police - from Sandra Bland to Ahmaud Arbery to George Floyd - and suggests we 'remember their names'. I can sense the tension it creates in some around me, but so be it. I've received a couple of very nice comments from black members of the community.

I've worn my BLM stuff more times than I can count, and I've only had two or three people comment on it, all white.

I live in South Minneapolis, about 10 minutes from George Floyd Square, and have never had a black or brown community member comment on anything I was wearing. Maybe it's because we have a certain kind of passivity here in Minnesota, or maybe it's because black people, especially in this city, (rightfully) don't feel like they need to be patting white people on the backs.

Certainly not trying to diminish your experience, Steve, as I think it's important for more white community members to be vocal in whatever way we can