A societal shift

[London Blue]

6 hours ago, Palfy said:

I know and understand that in some professions there is an unwritten code of conduct amongst itself, that you look after each other which is great for the right reasons, but when a feeling of them and us ensues the rotten ones become protected by the umbrella of looking out for each other, I hope you understand what I’m trying to convey here, but do you think that more should be done to get rid of the bad, who are giving the majority of good officers a hard time, and if that was to be openly seen could it then give the black and ethnic communities, who for reasons that they feel are prevalent to themselves, a feeling of trust towards the Police instead of distrust which many feel now. 
 

We don't want any rotten cops, for two very good reasons. 

1) It reflects on the rest of us, it tarnishes us. It makes our job harder, and undermines our efforts to work with communities.

2) If a cop is racist and makes a racist comment or action and I witness it and don't report it then it can cost me my job, and rightly so. Honesty and Integrity are the two key qualities needed to be a Police Officer, if I don't challenge racist behaviour I and any other officer fail.

If an officer is racist the chances are someone will overhear it, witness it, weather that's a fellow cop, member of the public or whoever. The chances are someone will report it to a supervisor or tweet about it etc. The supervisor will then  report it, log it and have it investigated. All those who witnessed it and did not report it would face disciplinary action for failing on Honesty and Integrity. That is usually Gross Misconduct and that is your job gone, and it has to be that way.

There is a moral imperative to tackle racism and and high costs for those who fail to do the right thing, which is right.

I and no other cop I know would risk their reputation or job for a racist or corrupt cop, just would not happen.

[London Blue]

I just want to add that we are not a bunch of chisel jawed heroes patrolling the streets, we are humans, and like anyone else we have bad days, we make bad decisions, wrong decisions and we make mistakes.

Many decisions, especially those where we have to use force are split second decisions, where we act based on our perceptions of the situation, and our belief that someone poses a threat to us or the public. We have to justify our actions and live with the consequences of the decisions we make. 

We don't always get them right, but we are trying to do the right thing. That's why cameras are so important as they give context to what we do. 

[London Blue]

This happened in London today, now its on social media I can post it, wish I could say its an isolated incident, but I cant.

Both officers are ok thank God.

 

[Matt]

[holystove]

10 hours ago, London Blue said:

This happened in London today, now its on social media I can post it, wish I could say its an isolated incident, but I cant.

Both officers are ok thank God.

 

Idiots.  Behaviour like that will lose them the support of the general public. 

[Matt]

40 minutes ago, holystove said:

Idiots.  Behaviour like that will lose them the support of the general public. 

Completely undermines genuine effort for reform. 
 

Watched it again and it’s just making me wonder whether Thanos had the right idea with everything going on these last few years. 

[Matt]

I really am not sure how to voice my opinion on this, but here goes. Some thoughts I had to improve things:

1) I hate the media putting a colour/ethnicity in-front of a persons name in reports. Colour/ethnicity should only be used if a) it’s a description of a person in a crime (so not for the public eye) or b) that person asks for the description. Can we not just describe people as people? I know it can be used to raise awareness but it’s also dangerous. Same goes for sex and gender. So use it when it’s wanted and necessary rather than everywhere. 
2) stop using blanket statements. “The police” or “the whatever” is lazy. Some. Many. A few. Be accurate in your description.
3) this one will really piss some off; stop hiding history. If there’s a statue etc. of a cunt, don’t remove it. Put a massive plaque with an arrow pointing to the cunt and explain why the person is a cunt. Educate people. I understand that it can be painful to see, but educate rather than eliminate otherwise the cycle will continue. 
4) again, gonna piss people off; If there’s a film or book that uses language of its time and is now considered offensive, leave it alone and add explanations to educate why it’s not acceptable. Don’t redefine words, create new words that are accurate. 
I apologise to those this offends. That’s not my goal. I’m just venting frustration and I’m happy to be debated and educated because it’ll help me understand better. But we need to face things even when it’s difficult, otherwise we ignore the many problems this world (not a generalisation) faces. 

[Palfy]

1 hour ago, Matt said:

I really am not sure how to voice my opinion on this, but here goes. Some thoughts I had to improve things:

1) I hate the media putting a colour/ethnicity in-front of a persons name in reports. Colour/ethnicity should only be used if a) it’s a description of a person in a crime (so not for the public eye) or b) that person asks for the description. Can we not just describe people as people? I know it can be used to raise awareness but it’s also dangerous. Same goes for sex and gender. So use it when it’s wanted and necessary rather than everywhere. 
2) stop using blanket statements. “The police” or “the whatever” is lazy. Some. Many. A few. Be accurate in your description.
3) this one will really piss some off; stop hiding history. If there’s a statue etc. of a cunt, don’t remove it. Put a massive plaque with an arrow pointing to the cunt and explain why the person is a cunt. Educate people. I understand that it can be painful to see, but educate rather than eliminate otherwise the cycle will continue. 
4) again, gonna piss people off; If there’s a film or book that uses language of its time and is now considered offensive, leave it alone and add explanations to educate why it’s not acceptable. Don’t redefine words, create new words that are accurate. 
I apologise to those this offends. That’s not my goal. I’m just venting frustration and I’m happy to be debated and educated because it’ll help me understand better. But we need to face things even when it’s difficult, otherwise we ignore the many problems this world (not a generalisation) faces. 

Your right never hide the past let it be seen as a reminder to future generations, I went to Auschwitz many years ago it was one of the most harrowing and emotional things I have done, but I’ve grown from the experience, you honestly can’t believe what one human is capable of doing to another until you go there it makes cry remembering it to this day. 
There was a plaque there that basically said never forget the past for fear it will repeat itself, that’s why it was pretty much kept in tact as a reminder to future generations  to not repeat history.

 I think we are in real danger of hiding or forgetting the atrocities of slavery and racism by destroying the monuments that remind us of the past mistakes, so we don’t do the same things again. 

[MikeO]

43 minutes ago, Palfy said:

Your right never hide the past let it be seen as a reminder to future generations, I went to Auschwitz many years ago it was one of the most harrowing and emotional things I have done, but I’ve grown from the experience, you honestly can’t believe what one human is capable of doing to another until you go there it makes cry remembering it to this day. 
There was a plaque there that basically said never forget the past for fear it will repeat itself, that’s why it was pretty much kept in tact as a reminder to future generations  to not repeat history.

 I think we are in real danger of hiding or forgetting the atrocities of slavery and racism by destroying the monuments that remind us of the past mistakes, so we don’t do the same things again. 

Something I've always wanted to experience but wife not keen due to her families involvement in the holocaust, even though being adopted she's not strictly speaking Jewish she obviously has strong feelings. One of our daughters went a few years back and was very emotional about it as I'm sure everyone who visits is

[Romey 1878]

1 hour ago, MikeO said:

Something I've always wanted to experience but wife not keen due to her families involvement in the holocaust, even though being adopted she's not strictly speaking Jewish she obviously has strong feelings. One of our daughters went a few years back and was very emotional about it as I'm sure everyone who visits is

It’s something you’ve got to do, Mike. I’ve been and it is an unforgettable experience. 

[Romey 1878]

15 hours ago, Matt said:

I really am not sure how to voice my opinion on this, but here goes. Some thoughts I had to improve things:

1) I hate the media putting a colour/ethnicity in-front of a persons name in reports. Colour/ethnicity should only be used if a) it’s a description of a person in a crime (so not for the public eye) or b) that person asks for the description. Can we not just describe people as people? I know it can be used to raise awareness but it’s also dangerous. Same goes for sex and gender. So use it when it’s wanted and necessary rather than everywhere. 
2) stop using blanket statements. “The police” or “the whatever” is lazy. Some. Many. A few. Be accurate in your description.
3) this one will really piss some off; stop hiding history. If there’s a statue etc. of a cunt, don’t remove it. Put a massive plaque with an arrow pointing to the cunt and explain why the person is a cunt. Educate people. I understand that it can be painful to see, but educate rather than eliminate otherwise the cycle will continue. 
4) again, gonna piss people off; If there’s a film or book that uses language of its time and is now considered offensive, leave it alone and add explanations to educate why it’s not acceptable. Don’t redefine words, create new words that are accurate. 
I apologise to those this offends. That’s not my goal. I’m just venting frustration and I’m happy to be debated and educated because it’ll help me understand better. But we need to face things even when it’s difficult, otherwise we ignore the many problems this world (not a generalisation) faces. 

Considering episodes of TV shows are being taken away left, right, and centre (with more being requested) I don't think you'll see any of this. Sadly.

[Matt]

4 hours ago, Romey 1878 said:

Considering episodes of TV shows are being taken away left, right, and centre (with more being requested) I don't think you'll see any of this. Sadly.

The next step to making 1984 a reality

[dunlopp9987]

Derek Chauvin's trial starts today. Opening statements being made by the prosecution right now. The video was just shown to the jury, and no matter how many times I see it, I can't stop from crying. It's utterly heartbreaking. I went and marched a few weeks ago the day before jury deliberation started. It was the first time I was able to march, as I was living with my parents last year and didn't want to risk catching covid. It was one of the most powerful afternoons of my life.

This is the most important police brutality trial since the Rodney King trial 30 years ago. All of the officers in that trial were acquitted. I hope and pray that won't be the case this time around.

[MikeO]

8 minutes ago, dunlopp9987 said:

Derek Chauvin's trial starts today. Opening statements being made by the prosecution right now. The video was just shown to the jury, and no matter how many times I see it, I can't stop from crying. It's utterly heartbreaking. I went and marched a few weeks ago the day before jury deliberation started. It was the first time I was able to march, as I was living with my parents last year and didn't want to risk catching covid. It was one of the most powerful afternoons of my life.

This is the most important police brutality trial since the Rodney King trial 30 years ago. All of the officers in that trial were acquitted. I hope and pray that won't be the case this time around.

I have it on now, how long is it expected to last?

[dunlopp9987]

18 minutes ago, MikeO said:

I have it on now, how long is it expected to last?

Expected to be around 4 weeks, but could be longer. Blackwell, who spoke for the prosecution, was new to me. There was a different prosecutor who conducted all the jury deliberation. I'm worried, because he did not seem all that on top of his game. On the other hand, Nelson (defense) has been so smooth and arguably more likeable since jury deliberation started. I just worry that Nelson is a much better attorney and that might make the difference

[pete0]

Very similar happened in the UK too but it gets very little media attention. Remember watching the video the neighbour posted. You can hear from his squeals that they've damaged his brain yet they delayed even taking him to the hospital. Disgusting that it's going largely under the carpet.  They didn't need to beat him, they outnumbered him 10 to 1. Arrogant bastards even try to intimidate the witness filming them. Cold blooded murderers and they're only on restrictive duties at the moment.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-9167055/amp/Police-filmed-arresting-suspect-died-hours-later-ask-coroner-anonymity.html

[dunlopp9987]

Only three days in and I'm emotionally exhausted from watching the testimony and these videos over and over. And I'm a straight white man. Cannot imagine what it must be like for Black and Brown people to watch this. 

Watching now and they're showing bodycam footage from the two officers who first arrived on the scene and attempted to take him into custody. After they have him on the ground (with four officers on him), one of the officers says "Should we roll him on his side?" and then later (after Floyd has already passed out) he says again "Roll him on his side." And Chauvin continues to kneel on his neck and back. He kneels on his neck and back even as the paramedic takes his pulse, which had already stopped. 

I think Chauvin will be convicted and the other three will be acquitted, unfortunately.

[MikeO]

Prosecution destroying the use of force "expert" at the moment, if Chauvin doesn't get found guilty it's going to get very unpleasant.

[Cornish Steve]

There's a common theme among incidents related this week in the news.

First, there's the black army officer pulled over in Virginia. He was driving a new car and had a temporary number plate in the window (perfectly legal). The police didn't see it and so turned on their flashing lights. It was dark, so the driver (quite rightly) slowed down, turned on his flashers, and drove a mile to a gas station where it was well lit. The police approached him with guns drawn and pointed at him. They sprayed his face with pepper spray even while refusing to explain why he'd been pulled over.

Second, there's the young man in Minnesota. He had air fresheners hanging in his rear window, and this prompted the police to stop him. They found he had a warrant against him, but he was afraid to leave the car (who can blame him). He was shot dead. The officer claims she meant to tase him and killed him in error (small comfort to his family).

Third, there's the report in the trial of George Floyd being arrested a year earlier. He was sleepy (under the influence) and didn't respond. Once again, the police pointed their guns at him.

Fourth, a young man in a high school waved an armed gun and barricaded himself in the bathroom. The police entered and shot him dead.

Why are guns the very first recourse? Surely they should be the very last resort. That student in school: Why not use gas to get him out of the bathroom? The army officer, what had he done to warrant guns being pointed at him?

In Atlanta, there used to be a black guy who participated in a right-wing chat show, pushing back at the main host all the time. He had a phrase for what would happen back then (twenty years ago). He would be stopped all the time in Atlanta. What was his crime? DWB: Driving While Black. Sadly, it's very true. There's no way any of my sons would be pulled over for having an air freshener in the car, for example.

So there's two things at issue here: Racism/racial profiling and the police using guns as a first resort. Some will argue that the police must behave this way because of the wide availability of guns, but that implies we need restrictions on guns. Those same people defending the police are the ones who point-blank refuse to consider any such restrictions.

This problem can only be fixed by bold presidential leadership. There will be a hue and cry no matter what, but lives are too important to allow the current situation to continue.

[MikeO]

10 minutes ago, Cornish Steve said:

There's a common theme among incidents related this week in the news.

First, there's the black army officer pulled over in Virginia. He was driving a new car and had a temporary number plate in the window (perfectly legal). The police didn't see it and so turned on their flashing lights. It was dark, so the driver (quite rightly) slowed down, turned on his flashers, and drove a mile to a gas station where it was well lit. The police approached him with guns drawn and pointed at him. They sprayed his face with pepper spray even while refusing to explain why he'd been pulled over.

Second, there's the young man in Minnesota. He had air fresheners hanging in his rear window, and this prompted the police to stop him. They found he had a warrant against him, but he was afraid to leave the car (who can blame him). He was shot dead. The officer claims she meant to tase him and killed him in error (small comfort to his family).

Third, there's the report in the trial of George Floyd being arrested a year earlier. He was sleepy (under the influence) and didn't respond. Once again, the police pointed their guns at him.

Fourth, a young man in a high school waved an armed gun and barricaded himself in the bathroom. The police entered and shot him dead.

Why are guns the very first recourse? Surely they should be the very last resort. That student in school: Why not use gas to get him out of the bathroom? The army officer, what had he done to warrant guns being pointed at him?

In Atlanta, there used to be a black guy who participated in a right-wing chat show, pushing back at the main host all the time. He had a phrase for what would happen back then (twenty years ago). He would be stopped all the time in Atlanta. What was his crime? DWB: Driving While Black. Sadly, it's very true. There's no way any of my sons would be pulled over for having an air freshener in the car, for example.

So there's two things at issue here: Racism/racial profiling and the police using guns as a first resort. Some will argue that the police must behave this way because of the wide availability of guns, but that implies we need restrictions on guns. Those same people defending the police are the ones who point-blank refuse to consider any such restrictions.

This problem can only be fixed by bold presidential leadership. There will be a hue and cry no matter what, but lives are too important to allow the current situation to continue.

So shocking.

[Palfy]

1 hour ago, Cornish Steve said:

Some will argue that the police must behave this way because of the wide availability of guns, but that implies we need restrictions on guns. Those same people defending the police are the ones who point-blank refuse to consider any such restrictions.

You do need restrictions on guns but we all know that’s not going to happen. There are officers who are bad apples as in all walks of life, but being a policeman in a lot of the City’s in America must be one of the scariest jobs to do, I couldn’t do it the thought of so many guns on the streets and that there’s bullet out there with your name on, must be adding immensely to officers making poor decisions who fear for their own lives on a daily basis. Be honest could you do their job or would you do their job?

[dunlopp9987]

1 hour ago, Cornish Steve said:

There's a common theme among incidents related this week in the news.

First, there's the black army officer pulled over in Virginia. He was driving a new car and had a temporary number plate in the window (perfectly legal). The police didn't see it and so turned on their flashing lights. It was dark, so the driver (quite rightly) slowed down, turned on his flashers, and drove a mile to a gas station where it was well lit. The police approached him with guns drawn and pointed at him. They sprayed his face with pepper spray even while refusing to explain why he'd been pulled over.

Second, there's the young man in Minnesota. He had air fresheners hanging in his rear window, and this prompted the police to stop him. They found he had a warrant against him, but he was afraid to leave the car (who can blame him). He was shot dead. The officer claims she meant to tase him and killed him in error (small comfort to his family).

Third, there's the report in the trial of George Floyd being arrested a year earlier. He was sleepy (under the influence) and didn't respond. Once again, the police pointed their guns at him.

Fourth, a young man in a high school waved an armed gun and barricaded himself in the bathroom. The police entered and shot him dead.

Why are guns the very first recourse? Surely they should be the very last resort. That student in school: Why not use gas to get him out of the bathroom? The army officer, what had he done to warrant guns being pointed at him?

In Atlanta, there used to be a black guy who participated in a right-wing chat show, pushing back at the main host all the time. He had a phrase for what would happen back then (twenty years ago). He would be stopped all the time in Atlanta. What was his crime? DWB: Driving While Black. Sadly, it's very true. There's no way any of my sons would be pulled over for having an air freshener in the car, for example.

So there's two things at issue here: Racism/racial profiling and the police using guns as a first resort. Some will argue that the police must behave this way because of the wide availability of guns, but that implies we need restrictions on guns. Those same people defending the police are the ones who point-blank refuse to consider any such restrictions.

This problem can only be fixed by bold presidential leadership. There will be a hue and cry no matter what, but lives are too important to allow the current situation to continue.

Steve I could kiss you. This was perfectly put. This is why there is such an outcry right now for defunding the police here in the states. Of course, people on the right hear "defund the police" and think we're trying to abolish the police completely. Well, I happen to be one of those people who think the police should be abolished completely. However, the more moderate approach to "defund the police" actually means, take funds that we pour into policing and divert them to better and safer ways to help communities.

Instead of police being called to a situation where there's someone with mental health issues, we call in actual mental health professionals. Instead of police being called in for a drug-related incident, we call in drug use counselors. The whole point of defunding the police is to stop their carte blanche of "protecting and serving" their communities, and to actually let the communities come together to create change. 

The entire concept of police forces was invented to track down runaway slaves. How can we be surprised then that here we are, over 200 years later, and the police are still hunting down Black and Brown people? 

I could write an entire page's worth on here, but needless to say, these senseless killings of Black and Brown people will continue at the hands of law enforcement until there is radical change to how we view policing in this country.

[Cornish Steve]

2 hours ago, dunlopp9987 said:

Instead of police being called to a situation where there's someone with mental health issues, we call in actual mental health professionals.

I don't think people outside the US understand just how big a problem mental illness is in the US. Since there's no universal healthcare, the mentally ill are often left to their own devices, and a high percentage of the homeless community are mentally ill. I've spent time with some of them, good people but with major problems - with literally nowhere to turn. They'll remain living on the streets and the sidelines until they commit a crime, usually minor, that lands them in jail.

I'm guessing that one guy (named Ron) I got to know well, who lived in a makeshift tent in a small patch of woods alongside a major interstate highway, was once a college professor. Ron would never speak but would reveal his feelings through actions and emotional reactions (especially agitation). I got to know him because he would show up at our church every week and insist on preparing food for the church lunch and cleaning up afterwards. I realized after a while that he walked about five miles each way to get there and never missed a Sunday morning, so I began to time my drive every week to pick him up and drop him off. Slowly but surely, he would speak a few words to me, although very softly spoken and difficult to understand. One Sunday, there was a hurricane-like storm, but there was Ron - already walking on his journey to church, being buffeted by winds and torrential rain. This continued for a couple of years. Then one Sunday morning, he was not there. After weeks of asking around, I learned that Ron had in his makeshift tent a small number of books that he cherished more than anything else in the world. Another homeless person tried to steal his books, so they got into a fight and the police were called. Ron was arrested and apparently sentenced to several years in jail. Despite always on the lookout, I've never seen him since.

This is not untypical of the plight of the mentally ill in the US - no home, no friends, no healthcare, wandering from soup kitchen to soup kitchen, and building themselves a routine with which they become obsessed. They're politely ignored or, when the Olympics came to Atlanta, shipped off to another state so the world doesn't get to see them. And then along comes Donald Trump, who relaxes gun laws even more than before such that the mentally ill can purchase, own, and use a gun. This makes life even more difficult for the police, so their training and procedures become even more militaristic. What's another common theme among mass shooters? They are often mentally ill - and looser gun laws only exacerbate the problem. Mental illness and an obsession with guns are intertwined problems and together represent America's biggest shame.

[Palfy]

9 hours ago, dunlopp9987 said:

I happen to be one of those people who think the police should be abolished completely.

 

6 hours ago, Cornish Steve said:

Instead of police being called to a situation where there's someone with mental health issues, we call in actual mental health professionals.

I don’t live in the USA, but what stands out in your society to most who don’t live there is your gun laws, they have and still are shaping the direction you’re country is going in, racism is abhorrent but it is a problem of our society and social conscience, not just a problem with police it’s manifestation is in all walks of life across the world. 
There is a web page called ODMP it lists how many police officers have been killed by shooting every year up to 2020 in the USA, it also gives the name of the officer and what happened in the incident, I think you both need to read this and get some perspective on getting rid of the the police. There are a lot killed by going to help people who are being subjected to domestic violence, there are those that have been killed by people who have mental issues, there are those who have been killed by carrying out simple car checks, or trying to stop robbery’s and drug and gun crimes on your streets, who is going to protect innocent people from crime if you get rid of the police, are you proposing that you send a unarmed trained social worker to an incident of a violent person with a gun and mental issues, who’s going to protect helpless children and women being beaten and sometimes killed by partners, your next door neighbors, you aren’t going to enter that situation you’re going to ring the police your not going to get involved for fear of being shot, who’s going to try and stop robberies gun and drug crimes, the list is endless. 
It’s not acceptable for the amount of police officers being killed doing there duty black and white being killed by blacks are whites. 
As I said before not a country were I would be prepared to do that line of work. Your views are very simplistic but your society would be far worse with out police, there’s to much to be done before you can even contemplating losing the police. 

[dunlopp9987]

12 hours ago, Cornish Steve said:

I don't think people outside the US understand just how big a problem mental illness is in the US. Since there's no universal healthcare, the mentally ill are often left to their own devices, and a high percentage of the homeless community are mentally ill. I've spent time with some of them, good people but with major problems - with literally nowhere to turn. They'll remain living on the streets and the sidelines until they commit a crime, usually minor, that lands them in jail.

I'm guessing that one guy (named Ron) I got to know well, who lived in a makeshift tent in a small patch of woods alongside a major interstate highway, was once a college professor. Ron would never speak but would reveal his feelings through actions and emotional reactions (especially agitation). I got to know him because he would show up at our church every week and insist on preparing food for the church lunch and cleaning up afterwards. I realized after a while that he walked about five miles each way to get there and never missed a Sunday morning, so I began to time my drive every week to pick him up and drop him off. Slowly but surely, he would speak a few words to me, although very softly spoken and difficult to understand. One Sunday, there was a hurricane-like storm, but there was Ron - already walking on his journey to church, being buffeted by winds and torrential rain. This continued for a couple of years. Then one Sunday morning, he was not there. After weeks of asking around, I learned that Ron had in his makeshift tent a small number of books that he cherished more than anything else in the world. Another homeless person tried to steal his books, so they got into a fight and the police were called. Ron was arrested and apparently sentenced to several years in jail. Despite always on the lookout, I've never seen him since.

This is not untypical of the plight of the mentally ill in the US - no home, no friends, no healthcare, wandering from soup kitchen to soup kitchen, and building themselves a routine with which they become obsessed. They're politely ignored or, when the Olympics came to Atlanta, shipped off to another state so the world doesn't get to see them. And then along comes Donald Trump, who relaxes gun laws even more than before such that the mentally ill can purchase, own, and use a gun. This makes life even more difficult for the police, so their training and procedures become even more militaristic. What's another common theme among mass shooters? They are often mentally ill - and looser gun laws only exacerbate the problem. Mental illness and an obsession with guns are intertwined problems and together represent America's biggest shame.

First off Steve, I want to say thanks for sharing that story. That really got me, and it's stories like those that I've been reading for the last year or so which have helped push me towards a new career path in community organizing and outreach. I come from a privileged, comfortable middle-class upbringing and I am just now, at 33, coming to reconcile with the privilege I've lived with, which is why I want to give back to communities that are being left behind. 

I also want to just quickly note about the last part that I bolded. While I do agree that mental health and especially guns are some of our greatest shames here in America, our greatest shame is undoubtedly the fact that this country was built on the backs of Black and Brown slaves. Slavery is and will always be our greatest shame, and unfortunately it continues to this day with mass incarceration and the prison industrial complex. 

5 hours ago, Palfy said:

 

I don’t live in the USA, but what stands out in your society to most who don’t live there is your gun laws, they have and still are shaping the direction you’re country is going in, racism is abhorrent but it is a problem of our society and social conscience, not just a problem with police it’s manifestation is in all walks of life across the world. 
There is a web page called ODMP it lists how many police officers have been killed by shooting every year up to 2020 in the USA, it also gives the name of the officer and what happened in the incident, I think you both need to read this and get some perspective on getting rid of the the police. There are a lot killed by going to help people who are being subjected to domestic violence, there are those that have been killed by people who have mental issues, there are those who have been killed by carrying out simple car checks, or trying to stop robbery’s and drug and gun crimes on your streets, who is going to protect innocent people from crime if you get rid of the police, are you proposing that you send a unarmed trained social worker to an incident of a violent person with a gun and mental issues, who’s going to protect helpless children and women being beaten and sometimes killed by partners, your next door neighbors, you aren’t going to enter that situation you’re going to ring the police your not going to get involved for fear of being shot, who’s going to try and stop robberies gun and drug crimes, the list is endless. 
It’s not acceptable for the amount of police officers being killed doing there duty black and white being killed by blacks are whites. 
As I said before not a country were I would be prepared to do that line of work. Your views are very simplistic but your society would be far worse with out police, there’s to much to be done before you can even contemplating losing the police. 

Palf, I appreciate you taking the time to respond and I understand peoples fears for the abolition of police as we currently know it. I was going to respond, but then I saw someone post on Instagram the exact right wording for what I was going to try and articulate in response to you. It's a bit of a read, but it perfectly encapsulates my thoughts on abolition and many others as well. 

"People who are skeptical of abolition tend to demand that those of us who are working towards it show them step-by-step how we plan to get to what abolition promises. Yet they can’t explain how a centuries old carceral system with the most money and resources fails to be the better solution. 

Even at base level logic: if more policing, jails, and prisons really equated to safer communities, the U.S. should’ve BEEN the safest place in the world by now. And yet I didn’t even know another deadly shooting took place yesterday, this time in my own state, because I’m losing track.

I’m not here to argue with non-believers and skeptics. I don’t have time anyways. I’m just naming something abolition continues to teach me: that just because we don’t have the full answers spelled out for how we get to where abolition is taking us, doesn’t make it invalid and not worth it.

Police, time and time again, have yet to figure out by now how to not kill unarmed Black and Brown people. Yet they’re given so many chances and all the funding to figure out how they will reform, improve, get better, etc. But people can’t seem to fathom giving the same chance to abolition.

How many more years, decades, and generations will folks give to these systems that treat the most marginalized amongst us like lethal trial and error practice tests before we collectively decide that there’s more to life than this and that we deserve to figure out what that is?

Abolition taught me to ask that. Abolitionists teach me that we’re made for more than organized abandonment. And that the safest, healthiest, most well taken care of communities have the most resources. Have mutual aid. Rely on each other. Not more cops, jails, or prisons."

 

[Cornish Steve]

2 hours ago, dunlopp9987 said:

First off Steve, I want to say thanks for sharing that story. That really got me, and it's stories like those that I've been reading for the last year or so which have helped push me towards a new career path in community organizing and outreach. I come from a privileged, comfortable middle-class upbringing and I am just now, at 33, coming to reconcile with the privilege I've lived with, which is why I want to give back to communities that are being left behind. 

I also want to just quickly note about the last part that I bolded. While I do agree that mental health and especially guns are some of our greatest shames here in America, our greatest shame is undoubtedly the fact that this country was built on the backs of Black and Brown slaves. Slavery is and will always be our greatest shame, and unfortunately it continues to this day with mass incarceration and the prison industrial complex.

 

Very well done for becoming more involved in the community. I wish I had the same dedication as you.

I realize now that the story I shared about Ron had a sad ending, so maybe I can share another which has a very good ending. Another homeless guy started showing up one week at our church, and I took the time to get to know him. He at least had a vehicle, so every Sunday we would quietly sneak out and drive across the street to a gas station. As I filled my car, I'd also fill his - and that was enough to get him through the week. He managed to get a job, then, through a local community group, he was able to share a home for six months with several other homeless guys. After that, he was in a position to rent his own apartment. Today, he's a trusted supervisor at work and married with a young daughter. We don't see each other much, since I moved to a different part of the city, but we share stories and pictures over Facebook.

Mainly because of the devastating cost of healthcare to those without a full-time job, many business professionals in the US are homeless. We don't know it, but some people walking into the same office complex as us, wearing a suit and clean-shaven, may be only part-time employees and actually homeless. Looks can be deceiving.

I take your point, and agree, that the greatest shame in American history is slavery and the residual racist attitudes across the country. With each passing generation and the impact of integrated schools, the problem should diminish, but it will take time. I remember someone once pointing out that no child is born racist; they become so only when taught by word, action, or example of parents and others around them. This may sound obvious, but it's worth stating - and it's why we should always speak up whenever we encounter racism in the public domain.

[Palfy]

2 hours ago, dunlopp9987 said:

First off Steve, I want to say thanks for sharing that story. That really got me, and it's stories like those that I've been reading for the last year or so which have helped push me towards a new career path in community organizing and outreach. I come from a privileged, comfortable middle-class upbringing and I am just now, at 33, coming to reconcile with the privilege I've lived with, which is why I want to give back to communities that are being left behind. 

I also want to just quickly note about the last part that I bolded. While I do agree that mental health and especially guns are some of our greatest shames here in America, our greatest shame is undoubtedly the fact that this country was built on the backs of Black and Brown slaves. Slavery is and will always be our greatest shame, and unfortunately it continues to this day with mass incarceration and the prison industrial complex. 

Palf, I appreciate you taking the time to respond and I understand peoples fears for the abolition of police as we currently know it. I was going to respond, but then I saw someone post on Instagram the exact right wording for what I was going to try and articulate in response to you. It's a bit of a read, but it perfectly encapsulates my thoughts on abolition and many others as well. 

"People who are skeptical of abolition tend to demand that those of us who are working towards it show them step-by-step how we plan to get to what abolition promises. Yet they can’t explain how a centuries old carceral system with the most money and resources fails to be the better solution. 

Even at base level logic: if more policing, jails, and prisons really equated to safer communities, the U.S. should’ve BEEN the safest place in the world by now. And yet I didn’t even know another deadly shooting took place yesterday, this time in my own state, because I’m losing track.

I’m not here to argue with non-believers and skeptics. I don’t have time anyways. I’m just naming something abolition continues to teach me: that just because we don’t have the full answers spelled out for how we get to where abolition is taking us, doesn’t make it invalid and not worth it.

Police, time and time again, have yet to figure out by now how to not kill unarmed Black and Brown people. Yet they’re given so many chances and all the funding to figure out how they will reform, improve, get better, etc. But people can’t seem to fathom giving the same chance to abolition.

How many more years, decades, and generations will folks give to these systems that treat the most marginalized amongst us like lethal trial and error practice tests before we collectively decide that there’s more to life than this and that we deserve to figure out what that is?

Abolition taught me to ask that. Abolitionists teach me that we’re made for more than organized abandonment. And that the safest, healthiest, most well taken care of communities have the most resources. Have mutual aid. Rely on each other. Not more cops, jails, or prisons."

 

Thanks for not taking it as a personal attack because it is a very emotive subject that can easily turn into slanging match which is not what I would want to happen so I appreciate your civility in your response, I pray Americans get the the society they deserve no matter their ethnicity or colour, but how will always be debatable, the hardest thing is to combat is hatred and prejudices that are not recognised by those who harbour them they are institutional racist if you like their belief is as strong as yours or mine, and the biggest danger they have on society is that when they die there beliefs don’t die with them they have imparted them on their children and impressionable people around them so  the cycle continues it doesn’t end. 
But we need police in our society’s I believe passionately that when my family needs help and protection the help is there. 

[Palfy]

18 minutes ago, Cornish Steve said:

Very well done for becoming more involved in the community. I wish I had the same dedication as you.

I realize now that the story I shared about Ron had a sad ending, so maybe I can share another which has a very good ending. Another homeless guy started showing up one week at our church, and I took the time to get to know him. He at least had a vehicle, so every Sunday we would quietly sneak out and drive across the street to a gas station. As I filled my car, I'd also fill his - and that was enough to get him through the week. He managed to get a job, then, through a local community group, he was able to share a home for six months with several other homeless guys. After that, he was in a position to rent his own apartment. Today, he's a trusted supervisor at work and married with a young daughter. We don't see each other much, since I moved to a different part of the city, but we share stories and pictures over Facebook.

Mainly because of the devastating cost of healthcare to those without a full-time job, many business professionals in the US are homeless. We don't know it, but some people walking into the same office complex as us, wearing a suit and clean-shaven, may be only part-time employees and actually homeless. Looks can be deceiving.

I take your point, and agree, that the greatest shame in American history is slavery and the residual racist attitudes across the country. With each passing generation and the impact of integrated schools, the problem should diminish, but it will take time. I remember someone once pointing out that no child is born racist; they become so only when taught by word, action, or example of parents and others around them. This may sound obvious, but it's worth stating - and it's why we should always speak up whenever we encounter racism in the public domain.

But do you think abolishing the police will help the situation, or would it be a free for all where nobody would feel safe, it could send the USA back 150 years to an age when lawlessness was stronger than a lawful society in many areas. 

[Cornish Steve]

9 minutes ago, Palfy said:

But do you think abolishing the police will help the situation, or would it be a free for all where nobody would feel safe, it could send the USA back 150 years to an age when lawlessness was stronger than a lawful society in many areas. 

I'm not a supporter of abolishing the police at all, although I can understand the movement to completely reform police funding and methods. Three police officers live in our neighborhood, and I wish them nothing but good.

I'm not an expert at all on this topic, but I would mention one thing. Several observers have noted how the police have been militarized. For example, many police forces use private training companies run by veterans of the Gulf War, and they use lessons learned on the streets of Iraq, Afghanistan, and elsewhere in devising their methods. This is not a good trend. An army in a foreign country is very different from public servants at home who swear to protect and serve.

[MikeO]

1 minute ago, Palfy said:

But do you think abolishing the police will help the situation, or would it be a free for all where nobody would feel safe, it could send the USA back 150 years to an age when lawlessness was stronger than a lawful society in many areas. 

I don't think anyone is talking about abolishing the police without putting something else in its place, it's about changing attitudes and procedures. Of course some form of law enforcement will always be needed.