Sean Dyche

[Shukes]

3 hours ago, patto said:

On his last outing I thought he looked better than Beto admittedly he was only on minutes but looks as if he has better control of the ball. 

I agree. He did. Hope it’s him settling down a bit.

[StevO]

11 hours ago, patto said:

Chermiti ?

Just a kid. Won’t see anything much from him for at least a couple of years, if at all. Very much a risk, but hopefully one worth taking. 

[patto]

8 hours ago, StevO said:

Just a kid. Won’t see anything much from him for at least a couple of years, if at all. Very much a risk, but hopefully one worth taking. 

He will be involved as soon as possible no way are we spending 15m on a player to wait 2 years. 
you have a strange idea of age Rooney was ready at 15 but wasn’t allowed to play till he was 16. 
Gordon west was 19 when we broke the transfer record for a goalkeeper and went straight into the team. 

[Hafnia]

8 hours ago, patto said:

He will be involved as soon as possible no way are we spending 15m on a player to wait 2 years. 
you have a strange idea of age Rooney was ready at 15 but wasn’t allowed to play till he was 16. 
Gordon west was 19 when we broke the transfer record for a goalkeeper and went straight into the team. 

We never paid £15m in the sense you are thinking about.  It’s on the drip over a long period of time. We sold Tom Cannon for £9m. 
 

He is 6ft 4 but has a bit of filling out to do and learn the game.   He will get time when it’s right.  Trust me, I’ll be the first to question dyche as I don’t think he trusts youth much

 

 

[MikeO]

8 hours ago, patto said:

Rooney was ready at 15 but wasn’t allowed to play till he was 16. 

Wayne was a one-off, a freak of nature (in a nice way obviously).

[Cornish Steve]

How exactly do we define youth versus young players? Chermiti is 19, Branthwaite is 21, Onana and Garner are 22.

[patto]

Just now, MikeO said:

Wayne was a one-off, a freak of nature (in a nice way obviously).

I know Wayne was a one-off but at 19 you are not a kid 

[Matt]

49 minutes ago, patto said:

I know Wayne was a one-off but at 19 you are not a kid 

At 40 I'm still a kid

You're a kid in this game until you're a regular in the starting squad or until 23 in my eyes. 

And I was very, very much still a kid at 19.

[Romey 1878]

1 minute ago, Matt said:

At 40 I'm still a kid

You're a kid in this game until you're a regular in the starting squad or until 23 in my eyes. 

And I was very, very much still a kid at 19.

I was a fucking idiot at 19.

I'm slightly less of an idiot at 36.

I'll still be an idiot the day I die.

[StevO]

9 hours ago, patto said:

He will be involved as soon as possible no way are we spending 15m on a player to wait 2 years. 
you have a strange idea of age Rooney was ready at 15 but wasn’t allowed to play till he was 16. 
Gordon west was 19 when we broke the transfer record for a goalkeeper and went straight into the team. 

Rooney and Chermiti are very very different. Rooney could have played in the premier league at 14 and still been a half decent player. 
 

I’ll have to trust you on Gordon West.

[StevO]

1 hour ago, Cornish Steve said:

How exactly do we define youth versus young players? Chermiti is 19, Branthwaite is 21, Onana and Garner are 22.

 

1 hour ago, patto said:

I know Wayne was a one-off but at 19 you are not a kid 

In terms of ability and experience, that’s the difference. 
 

Chermiti hasn’t even played in 40 games yet, and half of his experience was for the B team playing in the third tier. In terms of experience he’s a baby. In any other industry he would also be a baby, he’s a teenager. 
 

Branthwaite was only 21 in June. He had only just turned 20 when he went to PSV and played most of a season in top flight football. He also played for our first team at 18, he had also played for Carlisles first team 14 times before he played for us. 
Add in the loan at Blackburn; for a 21 year old (even more so for a defender who typically come through later due to the risk) I’d say he’s very experienced for a 21 year old. 
 

Onana only really got into first team football at 20, but was playing for Belgium at 21. Clearly showed a lot of potential ability, but not creating waves as a teenager. 
 

Garner. By the time he joined Everton at 20 he had played more than 80 games in the Championship over two seasons. Very experienced. 
 

Chermiti could be like Onana and catch the eye at 20 and start showing what he can do. He might be like Garner and break in while he’s still 18. But in terms of experience and ability, right now he’s just a kid with potential. Luckily for us and for him we have DCL and Beto, so he doesn’t need to play and can take his time to learn. 

[StevO]

36 minutes ago, Matt said:

At 40 I'm still a kid

You're a kid in this game until you're a regular in the starting squad or until 23 in my eyes. 

And I was very, very much still a kid at 19.

 

34 minutes ago, Romey 1878 said:

I was a fucking idiot at 19.

I'm slightly less of an idiot at 36.

I'll still be an idiot the day I die.

I was once told that men don’t grow up, we just get older.

[Romey 1878]

2 minutes ago, StevO said:

 

I was once told that men don’t grow up, we just get older.

I'd agree with that.

[patto]

2 hours ago, StevO said:

 

In terms of ability and experience, that’s the difference. 
 

Chermiti hasn’t even played in 40 games yet, and half of his experience was for the B team playing in the third tier. In terms of experience he’s a baby. In any other industry he would also be a baby, he’s a teenager. 
 

Branthwaite was only 21 in June. He had only just turned 20 when he went to PSV and played most of a season in top flight football. He also played for our first team at 18, he had also played for Carlisles first team 14 times before he played for us. 
Add in the loan at Blackburn; for a 21 year old (even more so for a defender who typically come through later due to the risk) I’d say he’s very experienced for a 21 year old. 
 

Onana only really got into first team football at 20, but was playing for Belgium at 21. Clearly showed a lot of potential ability, but not creating waves as a teenager. 
 

Garner. By the time he joined Everton at 20 he had played more than 80 games in the Championship over two seasons. Very experienced. 
 

Chermiti could be like Onana and catch the eye at 20 and start showing what he can do. He might be like Garner and break in while he’s still 18. But in terms of experience and ability, right now he’s just a kid with potential. Luckily for us and for him we have DCL and Beto, so he doesn’t need to play and can take his time to learn. 

So tell me this why is he not learning in the 21s

[patto]

2 hours ago, Romey 1878 said:

I was a fucking idiot at 19.

I'm slightly less of an idiot at 36.

I'll still be an idiot the day I die.

That will be something to do with Everton

[Hafnia]

15 minutes ago, patto said:

So tell me this why is he not learning in the 21s

from the article posted by Dunc:-

Chermiti is one of the best Portuguese forwards of his generation, no question. He’s one of the best in the U20 group and there are big hopes for him,” Sebastiao Macias, a Portuguese footballanalyst and former coaching colleague of Carlos Queiroz, tells i.

“But he is still young and developing. He has a good profile of the Premier League, he is at one of the big English clubs so there is pressure but he has the talent.” understands the club requested he be left out of the Portugal U20 squad in September because he was on a special strength and conditioning programme at Finch Farm to fast-track him physically for the Premier League.

[patto]

1 hour ago, Hafnia said:

from the article posted by Dunc:-

Chermiti is one of the best Portuguese forwards of his generation, no question. He’s one of the best in the U20 group and there are big hopes for him,” Sebastiao Macias, a Portuguese footballanalyst and former coaching colleague of Carlos Queiroz, tells i.

“But he is still young and developing. He has a good profile of the Premier League, he is at one of the big English clubs so there is pressure but he has the talent.” understands the club requested he be left out of the Portugal U20 squad in September because he was on a special strength and conditioning programme at Finch Farm to fast-track him physically for the Premier League.

So reading between the lines it won’t take 2/3 years. 

[Gwlad]

4 hours ago, Matt said:

At 40 I'm still a kid

You're a kid in this game until you're a regular in the starting squad or until 23 in my eyes. 

And I was very, very much still a kid at 19.

So was I and manged to get a responsible job which I had wanted for 2 years. Gave me the road to a job that I really wanted. Age isn't relevant if you have the endeavour to be where you want to be.

[Matt]

9 hours ago, Gwlad said:

So was I and manged to get a responsible job which I had wanted for 2 years. Gave me the road to a job that I really wanted. Age isn't relevant if you have the endeavour to be where you want to be.

For the most part, yes. But physical development is also key in sport and I wasn't long finished with puberty at 19! So I had no chance of competing and when I did I usually got flattened if they caught me

 

[Hafnia]

12 hours ago, patto said:

So reading between the lines it won’t take 2/3 years. 

Let’s take a step back….

you say Rooney was ready at 16 - which he was.   Would you like to put a value on 16/17 year old Wayne Rooney in today’s market?  - I’ll start the bidding at £120m. 
 

chermitti has cost £15m on the drip.  The reason for this is that he isn’t proven, is all about potential and has some work to do. 

[RuffRob]

Given our finances we don't have a free run at the market so have to bring in the best we can under the budget constraints we have. I am significantly happier with Beto in the squad than not, and a much more useful player than Maupay and Rondon before him. We now have a reasonable plan B, and argubly also a Plan C with Chermiti if needs must. Last season it was Maupy or Grey or even Gordan having a crack upfront. 

Beto and Chermiti more so will take a bit of time to find their feet both from moving overseas to a new country and football in the Premeriship. Really little point in disecting performances so early. This few months are about intergrating them in to their new home and the tactics of the team. 

If DCL got injured now - with his undoubted physicallity I am sure Beto will casuse a fair few headaches for the defending team, and he would grow game by game if was needed in the starting 11, without us having to reinvent how we play as an offensive unit. 

Rooney was special as a youngster and was phisically pretty mature upper body strength wise - but he also grew up Everton and English football. Big difference packing your bags and leaving home for a new country as a 19 year old. I bet 2 or 3 months ago trying to get in to Everton's first team was nowhere near Chermiti's radar. Rooney was driven by that goal since being a young boy.  

 

[RuffRob]

I put this Chermiti signing in maybe a similar bracket to Stones, Deulofeu, Vlasic, Onyekuru, Lookman, Kean, Besic & Patterson. A reasonable fee for young players but unproven in the Premier league. They are not all going to succeed, but in most cases you would expect to be able to get most of your money back - on average you are not going to lose millions and possibly even turn a modest profit on some of them. Its a near cost neutral approach. I see Chermiti as a low risk stratergy purchase. 

It's when we have tried to buy more 'proven' player in their prime and at top doller where we have fucked up as a club.  

 

[patto]

2 hours ago, RuffRob said:

I put this Chermiti signing in maybe a similar bracket to Stones, Deulofeu, Vlasic, Onyekuru, Lookman, Kean, Besic & Patterson. A reasonable fee for young players but unproven in the Premier league. They are not all going to succeed, but in most cases you would expect to be able to get most of your money back - on average you are not going to lose millions and possibly even turn a modest profit on some of them. Its a near cost neutral approach. I see Chermiti as a low risk stratergy purchase. 

It's when we have tried to buy more 'proven' player in their prime and at top doller where we have fucked up as a club.  

 

When you say we’ve fucked up on more proven players that is down to bad management and poor scouting. 
of the players you have named only 2 were quite poor. 

[Matt]

8 minutes ago, patto said:

When you say we’ve fucked up on more proven players that is down to bad management and poor scouting. 
of the players you have named only 2 were quite poor. 

That's not what he's getting at, he's listing players we brought in for their potential, like Chermiti 

[patto]

2 minutes ago, Matt said:

That's not what he's getting at, he's listing players we brought in for their potential, like Chermiti 

Matt I understand that but when we paid big money that was all wasted with the exception of Kean the rest were a disaster. 
All with the consent of poor managers the worst being Koeman. 

[RuffRob]

12 minutes ago, patto said:

Matt I understand that but when we paid big money that was all wasted with the exception of Kean the rest were a disaster. 
All with the consent of poor managers the worst being Koeman. 

The point wasn't that they where massivly successful it was that we didn't lose lots of money on them becasue they where purchased (for fairly decent fees) as young unproved players, but prospects. Most didn't make it as Everton players, but we didn't lose loads of money in fees and wages on them - in fact generally made a modest profit on most, and a massive profit on one. 

Chermiti is again young potential, but even if he didn't make it as a Everton player, we are more than likley to get at least our money back on this type of signing - thus low risk.  

I would love to see two or three of this type of player brought in every year. 

[StevO]

20 hours ago, patto said:

So tell me this why is he not learning in the 21s

Because the manager and director of football believe he will learn more training with the first team. 

[MikeO]

6 minutes ago, StevO said:

Because the manager and director of football believe he will learn more training with the first team. 

What do they know?

[RuffRob]

9 minutes ago, StevO said:

Because the manager and director of football believe he will learn more training with the first team. 

 I imagine in an ideal world he would be out on loan (and may do next season) - but we have a pretty thin squadwise this season. I would also guess as he has come from overseas, a season or half a season with the first team at Finch Farm and the experience with matchday squads will give him a great flavour of what he should be working for.   

I wouldn't have a problem with him going out on a Branthwaithe type loan when the time is right. 

[patto]

25 minutes ago, RuffRob said:

The point wasn't that they where massivly successful it was that we didn't lose lots of money on them becasue they where purchased (for fairly decent fees) as young unproved players, but prospects. Most didn't make it as Everton players, but we didn't lose loads of money in fees and wages on them - in fact generally made a modest profit on most, and a massive profit on one. 

Chermiti is again young potential, but even if he didn't make it as a Everton player, we are more than likley to get at least our money back on this type of signing - thus low risk.  

I would love to see two or three of this type of player brought in every year. 

At least it looks like Thelwell has seen what’s been going wrong hence scouts being replaced with hopefully better ones. 
he seems to like Dyche so let’s hope they can sort the mess out.

at least he hasn’t got mega money to go wrong with.