Elstone Blog In Reply To Dissenters

[Hafnia]

So would you rather have the old complexes over less debt, better players and better (however rented)facilities, one of the best in Europe, and is a great incentive/attraction for players to come to us, helping us attract players over the 'top teams' as well as retaining them for a longer period to get a better value when we do sell. Before Kenwright our players had very little sell on value, if any and the club was close to financially f*cked. We now sell to buy, but this is much better than financing through bank loans on fixed assets.

 

So you would agree that the players we spent millions on were a liability due to them proving not to be very good? Which reinforces my point that playing staff should not be classed as a solid asset, especially when they are the only ones left.

[pete0]

So you would agree that the players we spent millions on were a liability due to them proving not to be very good? Which reinforces my point that playing staff should not be classed as a solid asset, especially when they are the only ones left.

Yes, the player investment comes with risk, however the risk of not making the investment in the squad is much greater. eg. Distin a £5 mil investment has played almost every game since he's been here. With out him i believe we would have finished much lower, considerin the injuries we had forced us to play Hibbert at CB next to him as well as a unfit Jags. He may not have much sell on value but he has been a solid investment, and much better than keepin hold of a piece of land that a one point was practically worthless (when Liverpool council rejected planning permission )

[carlmc25]

Your model for using players as assets is flawed. We paid £5m for distin by the way. Which highlights my point perfectly. He is an intangible asset, one who once expired will have cost £5m plus wages over the time we have had him. Bily - £10m probably worth half that.

 

Is every player coming through a youth system a premier league certainty? Good enough to fill the boots of the players who may leave at a loss or profit? Having a manager prudent enough to make smart signings is not a guarantee, and based on your model that relates back to the financial safeguarding of our club- no guarantee.

 

Regarding the training complex you believe it was good business to sell for £7m and rent back at £1m a year over 25 years? What will the value of all those acres be worth then? If I told you that the value would be in excess of £200m would you be shocked? Regarding property crashes, just take a linear trend line and apply it over the past 25 years fluctuations and you will get the picture.

Kenwright obviously disagrees with you, it doesn't matter what the business model is, what matters is he knows Moyes gets it right more often than not so he backs him knowing that the players he buys will be solid investments and be worth more in the future. I tend to agree with Kenwright as he is a very successful businessman who runs his own company and must have made a few million in his time I would suspect, whereas you've done none of that. How you can question his business acumen is beyond me... at the end of the day, you ignore all my valid points about total assets we had when he took over and what we have now, anyone can recognise the absolutely huge gulf in the value of the squad, it's probably worth about £100m more than when he took over. I don't care about business theory I care about results and the squad and the performances and league positions have all improved beyond measure. It's just a pity he doesn't have the money to take us that next step but he'll always have my gratitude.

[StevO]

I see what your saying Carl, but his show production company success does not interest us. His everton football club company has performed terribly year on year in a financial sense. I think the issues people have is that the debts are bad and if the banks come asking for the money the only function to generate it would be to sell the players, like what happened to pompy. And no one wants that.

 

The longer evertons financial problems last, the closer that comes as a possibility.

I think these movements are popping up because for a lot of us it's squeaky bum time, and we don't wanna see the club decline on the field in the same way it has off the field.

[carlmc25]

I see what your saying Carl, but his show production company success does not interest us. His everton football club company has performed terribly year on year in a financial sense. I think the issues people have is that the debts are bad and if the banks come asking for the money the only function to generate it would be to sell the players, like what happened to pompy. And no one wants that.

 

The longer evertons financial problems last, the closer that comes as a possibility.

I think these movements are popping up because for a lot of us it's squeaky bum time, and we don't wanna see the club decline on the field in the same way it has off the field.

That is the problem and selling players must be a realistic possibility as it appears we have pushed our finances as far as we are willing to to back Moyes. The good thing is that we do have players we can sell that would wipe out a huge chunk of our debt without really having a massive impact on our team. The problem is that if BK hadn't have backed Moyes by raising money selling Bellefield etc, would Moyes still even be here or would he have become too frustrated and walked out, leaving us with someone like Allardyce and on a serious downward spiral. How BK keeps Moyes happy I'll never know but somehow he manages to keep Moyes loyal even with such serious financial constraints. A part of me thinks we should seriously look at wiping out the debt now and just have a couple of seasons of financial recovery where league positions may be impacted. Then when we are back on a solid footing we won't be paying all the interest fees out to the banks which will then free up money for transfers. I don't know what the answer is, I just like to trust in BK as I think he helped save us from one of my darkest times as an Evertonian, plus we've had a good time under Moyes (so close yet so far as well) and I just happen to like the guy. My worry is with all the stick he takes, he may just one day say 'sod this' and sell us to someone like Gaydamak and then Evertonians really will realise that the grass isn't always greener.

Edited July 23, 2011 by carlmc25

[Romey 1878]

I feel such apathy about Everton Football Club this summer. There was a time when I'd be up in arms about how crap our summer is but if I woke up tomorrow morning to find that Fellaini, Arteta, Cahill, Jags and Rodwell were all being sold to service the debt my reaction would just be "oh, right".

 

I just don't care.

[iggy]

Jeez Mark, I am (as most people probably are) frustrated as hell with our inability to compete in the transfer market with anything but loaners, but I haven't got that bad!

 

 

 

 

 

[StevO]

I just want change before we get to selling point.

If the media do get behind the pressure groups I hope we do get some answers. It just needs to get better.

[Hafnia]

That is the problem and selling players must be a realistic possibility as it appears we have pushed our finances as far as we are willing to to back Moyes. The good thing is that we do have players we can sell that would wipe out a huge chunk of our debt without really having a massive impact on our team. The problem is that if BK hadn't have backed Moyes by raising money selling Bellefield etc, would Moyes still even be here or would he have become too frustrated and walked out, leaving us with someone like Allardyce and on a serious downward spiral. How BK keeps Moyes happy I'll never know but somehow he manages to keep Moyes loyal even with such serious financial constraints. A part of me thinks we should seriously look at wiping out the debt now and just have a couple of seasons of financial recovery where league positions may be impacted. Then when we are back on a solid footing we won't be paying all the interest fees out to the banks which will then free up money for transfers. I don't know what the answer is, I just like to trust in BK as I think he helped save us from one of my darkest times as an Evertonian, plus we've had a good time under Moyes (so close yet so far as well) and I just happen to like the guy. My worry is with all the stick he takes, he may just one day say 'sod this' and sell us to someone like Gaydamak and then Evertonians really will realise that the grass isn't always greener.

 

 

When questioned at the Kirby enquiry, Elstone was asked whether the asset utilisation we are talking about is sustainable - to which he replied it was unsustainable and that eventually the loans would overwhelm the club. FYI - they sale of Bellefield was used to pay off another loan.

 

Ten years ago we had net assets of £18.5m, now we have net liabilities of £30m. Ten years ago our operating costs were 4% of our turnover, now they are 30% - yep 30%. Is Mr Greene involved in these operating costs? If not, what are these operating costs - maybe an AGM would allow that question to be asked, but they aren't going to allow that are they? Especially when questions are asked that they do not like:

 

scenrio: Bill when asked about lending more money:

 

BK "But to get to 4th, we need more money. Banks, will you lend us more money. We know what's going on at the moment in the world, the banks are tighter than they've ever been. Our bank's fantastic to us. All I can tell you, with absolute, genuine honesty, I don't know what to do anymore other than to get more money."

Shout from audience: "Sell it then."

 

BK: "Sell it? You're right. If I can sell it, it will be sold tomorrow, the next day or the next day. There's a man called Keith Harris who I'm sure you all know, he did the Randy Lerner deal, he?s done most of the big deals in the last few years. He's out there looking for me, Jon?s [Woods] been out there looking for the last ten months. We are out there with an open door policy.. Everyone knows this football club needs investment. I don't know what more I can do to serve you, to serve the football club and to get you the success that you deserve."

 

Shout from audience: "The planning application said the club is not for sale."

 

evidence:

 

Notes extracted from the revised Planning Statement (document 18) Kirkby Inquiry:

 

6.10 A further point that is of relevance to any debate on the options that might be available to the Club to fund a new stadium, is the willingness and abilities of the Club?s directors to sell some or all of their interests in the Club in order to attract an investor who or which might have the ability in financial terms to fund a new stadium in its entirety or at the very least fund the shortfall that exists in the context of this proposals. As is pointed out in greater detail in the financial statement (document 26), this is not an option as the current directors have no intention of selling any of their interests in the Club.

 

 

Mr Lancaster focused his attention on Bill Kenwright's statement at the recent EGM concerning the sale of the club to a billionaire and the apparent engagement of Keith Harris of Seymour Pierce; Robert Elstone refuted this, adding that the club hadn't engaged Seymour Pierce or anyone else. It was established that the club is for sale, although this is not mentioned in any of the 6,000 pages of the planning application.

 

 

Now does any of that make you any more nervous? The grass coiuldn't be much browner.

Edited July 23, 2011 by Hafnia

[Hafnia]

I just want change before we get to selling point.

If the media do get behind the pressure groups I hope we do get some answers. It just needs to get better.

 

 

SteveO - as above post there is so much out there when you really dig around. I've not yet reached apathy, i'm very much at the anger stage. Unfortunately that is mainly because many seem to be in acceptance.

 

The shower running this club are relying on the average fan being content to see little soundbites coming from the likes of Neville and co, hoping they shine some optimism into the hearts of fans who don't really have too much interest in wanting to know what exactly is going on with our finances, sale of the club, unknown influencing factors, massive operating costs.

 

Fortunately for us and unfortunately for them, there are fans with solid business acumen. The likes of Colin Fitzpatrick at KEIOC, who almost single handedly highlighted major flaws in the con that was Kirby. The peoples group are meeting with KEIOC, something that can only be beneficial in our search for the truth.

[MikeO]

...the current directors have no intention of selling any of their interests in the Club.

Again I've said this before but if you think that BK and the board are constantly spinning and deceiving then surely you must accept that they'd be capable of a bit of spin in a planning application to get the decision they want?

 

Ever filled in a loan/credit card/job or maybe even planning application without massaging the facts/figures a little?

 

They could quite easily say that they had no intention to sell at the time but then changed their minds after sleeping on it/a board meeting/a vision from Dixie.

[Romey 1878]

Jeez Mark, I am (as most people probably are) frustrated as hell with our inability to compete in the transfer market with anything but loaners, but I haven't got that bad!

 

 

Maybe I'll feel differently once the season starts again but I doubt it. I've missed football on a Saturday, not going to watch Everton.

[Bailey]

Did someone say there were no conspiracy theorists on this forum, no speculators and no guess work?

 

This special committee tasked to look into the finances of the club. The board handed all this information over to them did they or is it .......................................

 

I really dont know what planet you are on. I thought you made some interesting points on your first post BUT you seem to completely overlook any factual evidence that has been presented about certain failures of the heirachy at Everton Football Club. Thats the view point of both sides that pisses me off most. Bill has done good things and he has done bad things, the same goes with Moyes, ignoring all the bad (or good) that they have done doesnt make your viewpoint correct and loses any source of credibility.

 

We have more debt and less assets now than we did under Johnson? You need to disassociate moyes achievement of operating on a pretty much zilch net transfer budget in your appraisal of bill and co. Our credit rating is so poor we can't borrow any money?!

 

We have no assets apart from players, goodison is mortgaged, we do not own any training facilities, we have sold 3 training grounds under kenwright and we now own none. debt has doubled under kenwright despite selling off assets including Rooney. He is taking us down, never mind saving us from the big bad potential owners out there who have nothing to gain from an asset stripped club.

 

The first part is a very good point. Yes BK signed Moyes and must be given credit for that, but its only because Moyes has turned a very average team into a good team that we have got where we are now. Where would we be now if Rooney hadnt come through when he did? That £25ish million, let us build the team we have today.

 

Yes the assets are on the pitch, where do you want them - in the grounds, the stand etc and have us playing in the Championship? We have far more worth now than before, the assets on the pitch are substantial and would easily wipe out any debt we have, that was not true when BK took over when our team was a joke. So in reality, assets wise, we are in a far healthier position than when he took over. Sell Fellaini and Rodwell and there goes £30 - 40m off the debt and we still have a miles better team than we did when he took over. BK is in charge of the club, Moyes wouldn't have been so successful if BK hadn't put us further into debt to sanction the players and wages.

 

I dont really agree with this post. Yes it is important to have good players on the pitch, thats a given, but they are all we own, and furthermore we only own them for a certain number of years, at which rate they depreciate, especially if people know we are short of cash. Would Wenger or Redknapp have offered what they did for Jags & Neville if we had millions in the bank? Would they hell! Fellaini at somewhere like Villa would be worth 30-40mil but at Everton he is probably at £20mil because they know we dont have a pot to piss in.

 

Interesting announcement on The People's Group facebook page...

 

"None of us will be able to moderate the site for a few hours.So because of the mindless idiots (Kenwright backers) who ironically try and tell us our group are not fans we are just stopping wall post until late tonight.Hope the true fans understand!"

 

So those that disagree with them and back Bill are not true fans and, in some cases, are mindless idiots. Balanced.

 

Maybe they should change their name to The People that agree with us Group?

 

That is ridiculous! Although you do end up with a lot of bloody idiots on FB, you cant do something like that!

 

The problem we have Tenacious is that fans with similar sentiments to others who have different ethics can lose sight of the overall aim and once the rebels have been roused - it gets daft. There is already talk of protests at Villareal - I am unsure as to the benefit of this when there are better ways as initially suggested of achioeving things.

 

I am happy to follow them as long as people with different views are allowed to speak and give their point of view, without silly pedantic responses from either side.

 

That is my view as well. I am more than happy to be proved wrong but so far there is very little reasoned arguement to suggest that the board is culpable in some way. For me it is whether they have made these decisions with intent, or purely becauce they believed it was the best decision for the club.

 

For me (in fairly simplistic terms which I've put before so pass on by on the other side of the road if you've already heard it) I don't dismiss any of the historic mistakes that have been made.

 

What I believe is that Bill, at the times these things occurred, believed what he was saying to be true and always believed that he was acting in the best interests of the club. I believe the club is for sale and I can fully understand why they won't divulge an asking price (although Louis says that the figure is already out there). I believe that he'd sell/dilute his shareholding tomorrow if the right offer was on the table.

 

My opinion is based solely on my impression of him as a man, mostly through the media but once, many many years ago when I had short-term business dealings with him as a client.

 

I trust him. That's it really....but it seems that makes me not a true fan .

 

Very fair and well put opinion. I too believe that Bill has acted on what he believed to be the best interests of the club, but I do question the advice he has been given along the way and the thinking that went into some of the 'mistakes'.

 

At the end of the day, we all want whats best for the club, and we all have differing views on what has happened and what should happen. I dont want a sugar daddy or some quick buck investor, Im not even fussed about us having millions to spend. I just want the club to be in safe hands, and to know that the future of the club is secure.

[pax]

I really dont know what planet you are on. I thought you made some interesting points on your first post BUT you seem to completely overlook any factual evidence that has been presented about certain failures of the heirachy at Everton Football Club. Thats the view point of both sides that pisses me off most. Bill has done good things and he has done bad things, the same goes with Moyes, ignoring all the bad (or good) that they have done doesnt make your viewpoint correct and loses any source of credibility.

 

 

 

C'mon then. State every fact about the failures of the hierarchy at Everton football club with the evidence that makes it a fact and not speculation. If you are going to talk about things that were apparently going to happen and didn't, then please post the factual reason why they failed?

 

Oh and i don't care much for you're opinion on me so do keep it to yourself in future.

[Bailey]

C'mon then. State every fact about the failures of the hierarchy at Everton football club with the evidence that makes it a fact and not speculation. If you are going to talk about things that were apparently going to happen and didn't, then please post the factual reason why they failed?

 

Oh and i don't care much for you're opinion on me so do keep it to yourself in future.

 

Well firstly I'll quote Hafnia's post on some of the main points up for discussion:

 

"When questioned at the Kirby enquiry, Elstone was asked whether the asset utilisation we are talking about is sustainable - to which he replied it was unsustainable and that eventually the loans would overwhelm the club. FYI - they sale of Bellefield was used to pay off another loan.

 

Ten years ago we had net assets of £18.5m, now we have net liabilities of £30m. Ten years ago our operating costs were 4% of our turnover, now they are 30% - yep 30%. Is Mr Greene involved in these operating costs? If not, what are these operating costs - maybe an AGM would allow that question to be asked, but they aren't going to allow that are they? Especially when questions are asked that they do not like:

 

scenrio: Bill when asked about lending more money:

 

BK "But to get to 4th, we need more money. Banks, will you lend us more money. We know what's going on at the moment in the world, the banks are tighter than they've ever been. Our bank's fantastic to us. All I can tell you, with absolute, genuine honesty, I don't know what to do anymore other than to get more money."

 

Shout from audience: "Sell it then."

 

BK: "Sell it? You're right. If I can sell it, it will be sold tomorrow, the next day or the next day. There's a man called Keith Harris who I'm sure you all know, he did the Randy Lerner deal, he?s done most of the big deals in the last few years. He's out there looking for me, Jon?s [Woods] been out there looking for the last ten months. We are out there with an open door policy.. Everyone knows this football club needs investment. I don't know what more I can do to serve you, to serve the football club and to get you the success that you deserve."

 

Shout from audience: "The planning application said the club is not for sale."

 

evidence:

 

Notes extracted from the revised Planning Statement (document 18) Kirkby Inquiry:

 

6.10 A further point that is of relevance to any debate on the options that might be available to the Club to fund a new stadium, is the willingness and abilities of the Club?s directors to sell some or all of their interests in the Club in order to attract an investor who or which might have the ability in financial terms to fund a new stadium in its entirety or at the very least fund the shortfall that exists in the context of this proposals. As is pointed out in greater detail in the financial statement (document 26), this is not an option as the current directors have no intention of selling any of their interests in the Club.

 

 

Mr Lancaster focused his attention on Bill Kenwright's statement at the recent EGM concerning the sale of the club to a billionaire and the apparent engagement of Keith Harris of Seymour Pierce; Robert Elstone refuted this, adding that the club hadn't engaged Seymour Pierce or anyone else. It was established that the club is for sale, although this is not mentioned in any of the 6,000 pages of the planning application. "

 

Theres some facts... Add that to whatever happened with Fortress Sports Fund, Kings Dock, the lack of foresight in the development of the Park End, the Kirkby fiasco that Keioc gave every fact under the sun yet people still disbelieved. Im not saying Kenwright is personally 100% responsible, but the heirachy of the club do have questions to answer over there dealings. If a CEO of a multinational made these type of mistakes or missed these opportunities then they would get the sack. Everton are a business and the only strategy the board seem to have come up with in this time is asset utilisation, which our CEO is saying is unsustainable (which doesnt take a genius to work out). Whats the new plan? They must have one as they been in charge for however many years! Im certainly not seeing one.

[Hafnia]

Well firstly I'll quote Hafnia's post on some of the main points up for discussion:

 

"When questioned at the Kirby enquiry, Elstone was asked whether the asset utilisation we are talking about is sustainable - to which he replied it was unsustainable and that eventually the loans would overwhelm the club. FYI - they sale of Bellefield was used to pay off another loan.

 

Ten years ago we had net assets of £18.5m, now we have net liabilities of £30m. Ten years ago our operating costs were 4% of our turnover, now they are 30% - yep 30%. Is Mr Greene involved in these operating costs? If not, what are these operating costs - maybe an AGM would allow that question to be asked, but they aren't going to allow that are they? Especially when questions are asked that they do not like:

 

scenrio: Bill when asked about lending more money:

 

BK "But to get to 4th, we need more money. Banks, will you lend us more money. We know what's going on at the moment in the world, the banks are tighter than they've ever been. Our bank's fantastic to us. All I can tell you, with absolute, genuine honesty, I don't know what to do anymore other than to get more money."

 

Shout from audience: "Sell it then."

 

BK: "Sell it? You're right. If I can sell it, it will be sold tomorrow, the next day or the next day. There's a man called Keith Harris who I'm sure you all know, he did the Randy Lerner deal, he?s done most of the big deals in the last few years. He's out there looking for me, Jon?s [Woods] been out there looking for the last ten months. We are out there with an open door policy.. Everyone knows this football club needs investment. I don't know what more I can do to serve you, to serve the football club and to get you the success that you deserve."

 

Shout from audience: "The planning application said the club is not for sale."

 

evidence:

 

Notes extracted from the revised Planning Statement (document 18) Kirkby Inquiry:

 

6.10 A further point that is of relevance to any debate on the options that might be available to the Club to fund a new stadium, is the willingness and abilities of the Club?s directors to sell some or all of their interests in the Club in order to attract an investor who or which might have the ability in financial terms to fund a new stadium in its entirety or at the very least fund the shortfall that exists in the context of this proposals. As is pointed out in greater detail in the financial statement (document 26), this is not an option as the current directors have no intention of selling any of their interests in the Club.

 

 

Mr Lancaster focused his attention on Bill Kenwright's statement at the recent EGM concerning the sale of the club to a billionaire and the apparent engagement of Keith Harris of Seymour Pierce; Robert Elstone refuted this, adding that the club hadn't engaged Seymour Pierce or anyone else. It was established that the club is for sale, although this is not mentioned in any of the 6,000 pages of the planning application. "

 

Theres some facts... Add that to whatever happened with Fortress Sports Fund, Kings Dock, the lack of foresight in the development of the Park End, the Kirkby fiasco that Keioc gave every fact under the sun yet people still disbelieved. Im not saying Kenwright is personally 100% responsible, but the heirachy of the club do have questions to answer over there dealings. If a CEO of a multinational made these type of mistakes or missed these opportunities then they would get the sack. Everton are a business and the only strategy the board seem to have come up with in this time is asset utilisation, which our CEO is saying is unsustainable (which doesnt take a genius to work out). Whats the new plan? They must have one as they been in charge for however many years! Im certainly not seeing one.

 

He/she will put you on ignore next Bailey... Do not challenge pax with a solid question that he/she can't answer. He/she doesn't want to see posts that make his dying reputation any worse. The man/woman has no real regard for anything other than being proven right, such was his/her insistence on carrying the farcical debate on essien being "3 times better at everything" than fellaini. He/she failed to understand that he/she made an outrageous comment that he/she couldn't quantify, yet carried on making an arse of himself/herself so much that the thread was closed down due to the bad feeling and insults it created.

 

Btw, feel free to repost so he/she can view and enjoy the freedom of speech.

 

Pax, I loved the "I don't care what you think of me, so keep it to yourself in future" absolute genius!!! I'm sure it wasn't intentional but comedy gold. In the words of Andy gray "tek a boo San!"

 

I don't think you need to fill your profile in somehow...

Edited July 24, 2011 by Hafnia

[Bailey]

He/she will put you on ignore next Bailey... Do not challenge pax with a solid question that he/she can't answer. He/she doesn't want to see posts that make his dying reputation any worse. The man/woman has no real regard for anything other than being proven right, such was his/her insistence on carrying the farcical debate on essien being "3 times better at everything" than fellaini. He/she failed to understand that he/she made an outrageous comment that he/she couldn't quantify, yet carried on making an arse of himself/herself so much that the thread was closed down due to the bad feeling and insults it created.

 

Btw, feel free to repost so he/she can view and enjoy the freedom of speech.

 

Pax, I loved the "I don't care what you think of me, so keep it to yourself in future" absolute genius!!! I'm sure it wasn't intentional but comedy gold. In the words of Andy gray "tek a boo San!"

 

I don't think you need to fill your profile in somehow...

 

I must admit I found it very amusing for him/her to be ridiculing the People's Group for stopping people giving their opinions on FB, yet then puts you on ignore for challenging his/her views!

[MikeO]

Doing themselves no favours imo...censoring people who disagree with them but allowing such gems as, "Do us a favour stop chatting shite fuck off and start you own Kenwright cock sucking group..."

 

It's all become a bit infantile and their number seems to have reached saturation...only ten added today.

 

Should take a leaf from KEIOC if they want to be taken seriously....I didn't always agree with them but their views were always rationally put and sensibly worded.

[Lowensda]

Doing themselves no favours imo...censoring people who disagree with them but allowing such gems as, "Do us a favour stop chatting shite fuck off and start you own Kenwright cock sucking group..."

 

It's all become a bit infantile and their number seems to have reached saturation...only ten added today.

 

Should take a leaf from KEIOC if they want to be taken seriously....I didn't always agree with them but their views were always rationally put and sensibly worded.

 

second what you've said Mike

[StevO]

I agree too.

 

The other day they simply could have said they were taking the post facility off due to it being unmanned instead of the crap they come out with.

 

If they got their publicity sorted they could do good things, but they need to learn fast.

[pax]

Well firstly I'll quote Hafnia's post on some of the main points up for discussion:

 

"When questioned at the Kirby enquiry, Elstone was asked whether the asset utilisation we are talking about is sustainable - to which he replied it was unsustainable and that eventually the loans would overwhelm the club. FYI - they sale of Bellefield was used to pay off another loan.

 

Ten years ago we had net assets of £18.5m, now we have net liabilities of £30m. Ten years ago our operating costs were 4% of our turnover, now they are 30% - yep 30%. Is Mr Greene involved in these operating costs? If not, what are these operating costs - maybe an AGM would allow that question to be asked, but they aren't going to allow that are they? Especially when questions are asked that they do not like:

 

scenrio: Bill when asked about lending more money:

 

BK "But to get to 4th, we need more money. Banks, will you lend us more money. We know what's going on at the moment in the world, the banks are tighter than they've ever been. Our bank's fantastic to us. All I can tell you, with absolute, genuine honesty, I don't know what to do anymore other than to get more money."

 

Shout from audience: "Sell it then."

 

BK: "Sell it? You're right. If I can sell it, it will be sold tomorrow, the next day or the next day. There's a man called Keith Harris who I'm sure you all know, he did the Randy Lerner deal, he?s done most of the big deals in the last few years. He's out there looking for me, Jon?s [Woods] been out there looking for the last ten months. We are out there with an open door policy.. Everyone knows this football club needs investment. I don't know what more I can do to serve you, to serve the football club and to get you the success that you deserve."

 

Shout from audience: "The planning application said the club is not for sale."

 

evidence:

 

Notes extracted from the revised Planning Statement (document 18) Kirkby Inquiry:

 

6.10 A further point that is of relevance to any debate on the options that might be available to the Club to fund a new stadium, is the willingness and abilities of the Club?s directors to sell some or all of their interests in the Club in order to attract an investor who or which might have the ability in financial terms to fund a new stadium in its entirety or at the very least fund the shortfall that exists in the context of this proposals. As is pointed out in greater detail in the financial statement (document 26), this is not an option as the current directors have no intention of selling any of their interests in the Club.

 

 

Mr Lancaster focused his attention on Bill Kenwright's statement at the recent EGM concerning the sale of the club to a billionaire and the apparent engagement of Keith Harris of Seymour Pierce; Robert Elstone refuted this, adding that the club hadn't engaged Seymour Pierce or anyone else. It was established that the club is for sale, although this is not mentioned in any of the 6,000 pages of the planning application. "

 

Theres some facts... Add that to whatever happened with Fortress Sports Fund, Kings Dock, the lack of foresight in the development of the Park End, the Kirkby fiasco that Keioc gave every fact under the sun yet people still disbelieved. Im not saying Kenwright is personally 100% responsible, but the heirachy of the club do have questions to answer over there dealings. If a CEO of a multinational made these type of mistakes or missed these opportunities then they would get the sack. Everton are a business and the only strategy the board seem to have come up with in this time is asset utilisation, which our CEO is saying is unsustainable (which doesnt take a genius to work out). Whats the new plan? They must have one as they been in charge for however many years! Im certainly not seeing one.

 

 

Sorry, maybe it's me being dumb, but i don't see where you have stated where most of you're facts have come from. Facts, especially figures need a source from someone who is in the know for them to be facts. Maybe apply this to the above and we'll have something to discuss. All i can see above is you putting 2 and 2 together and potentially coming up with 5, 4, 9. 27 or any number as it's all based on speculation.

 

If you lot have all the FACTS about what's been on, why are you demanding answers from the board? Surely you already know all the answers?

 

Oh wait, you don't.

Edited July 25, 2011 by pax

[pax]

I must admit I found it very amusing for him/her to be ridiculing the People's Group for stopping people giving their opinions on FB, yet then puts you on ignore for challenging his/her views!

 

I know you make things up and speculate as to the boards decision and intentions but not for one minute did i think you'd start doing the same with me !

[Bailey]

Doing themselves no favours imo...censoring people who disagree with them but allowing such gems as, "Do us a favour stop chatting shite fuck off and start you own Kenwright cock sucking group..."

 

It's all become a bit infantile and their number seems to have reached saturation...only ten added today.

 

Should take a leaf from KEIOC if they want to be taken seriously....I didn't always agree with them but their views were always rationally put and sensibly worded.

 

They are starting to turn into a bit of a joke tbh, but I was quite surprised they managed to get the exposure in the first place.

 

I thought Keoic were very impressive in the way they conducted themselves and in the end, a large percentage of what they said turned out to be true.

Sorry, maybe it's me being dumb, but i don't see where you have stated where most of you're facts have come from. Facts, especially figures need a source from someone who is in the know for them to be facts. Maybe apply this to the above and we'll have something to discuss. All i can see above is you putting 2 and 2 together and potentially coming up with 5, 4, 9. 27 or any number as it's all based on speculation.

 

If you lot have all the FACTS about what's been on, why are you demanding answers from the board? Surely you already know all the answers?

 

Oh wait, you don't.

 

I know you make things up and speculate as to the boards decision and intentions but not for one minute did i think you'd start doing the same with me !

 

Do you not realise that the post from Hafnia includes the details of the Kikrby enquiry as well as an interview with Elstone that actually happened. He hasnt just made them up, they are documented somewhere (maybe Keioc website). Maybe your definition of fact is different to mine.

[SimonButtle]

Doing themselves no favours imo...censoring people who disagree with them but allowing such gems as, "Do us a favour stop chatting shite fuck off and start you own Kenwright cock sucking group..."

 

It's all become a bit infantile and their number seems to have reached saturation...only ten added today.

 

Should take a leaf from KEIOC if they want to be taken seriously....I didn't always agree with them but their views were always rationally put and sensibly worded.

the people behind the group/page are sound and do have a plan and plenty of ideas and that, problem is at the moment, there is about 5-6 people on the facebook page who come on every day and do nothing but abuse the other members of the page and they call Kenwright a cunt and all that, things which they have been told not too, but for some reason the page admin will not ban them from the group, another issue is that there seems to be a handfull of shite fans that have joined and they are intent on destroying the group, i have become friends on fb with a guy who seems fairly involved in the group, and there is talk of a private on request group if the idiots don't stop soon

[Hafnia]

They are starting to turn into a bit of a joke tbh, but I was quite surprised they managed to get the exposure in the first place.

 

I thought Keoic were very impressive in the way they conducted themselves and in the end, a large percentage of what they said turned out to be true.

 

 

 

 

Do you not realise that the post from Hafnia includes the details of the Kikrby enquiry as well as an interview with Elstone that actually happened. He hasnt just made them up, they are documented somewhere (maybe Keioc website). Maybe your definition of fact is different to mine.

 

To be honest Bailey pax appears way too keen to type the same old stuff without reading anything, bit of a blagger. The fellaini essien 3 times better posts tell you all you need to know.

 

May be a phase who knows, but lacks maturity to say the least.

[pax]

 

 

 

 

Do you not realise that the post from Hafnia includes the details of the Kikrby enquiry as well as an interview with Elstone that actually happened. He hasnt just made them up, they are documented somewhere (maybe Keioc website). Maybe your definition of fact is different to mine.

 

I don't read anything that person has to say anymore so why don't you spell it out. What specific points are you trying to make and what facts backs them up and what evidence is there to lend weight to your facts.

 

Edited July 25, 2011 by pax

[Hafnia]

Someone drew a fantastic picture not so long ago, if a picture speaks a thousand words this one was far more succinct. I think it was in a closed down thread.

[Hafnia]

http://peoplesgroup.wordpress.com/2011/07/25/the-peoples-group-statement/

 

Well drafted statement...

[pete0]

http://peoplesgroup.wordpress.com/2011/07/25/the-peoples-group-statement/

 

Well drafted statement...

Say the same about some of Hitlers speeches... doesn't mean it's right.

[Hafnia]

Say the same about some of Hitlers speeches... doesn't mean it's right.

 

What isnt right about a statement that details questions they want answers to? Asking questions can't be wrong.