Hafnia Posted January 11, 2013 Report Share Posted January 11, 2013 I would sooner he had a continued time away from the club and the city - do a bit of growing up. We haven't even used him bar a few minutes against chelsea and stoke - his recall was wasted. Unless Moyes thought Sheff Wed wasnt right for him. I think he will enjoy playing for warnock - he likes to have a flair player (taraabt), he will get protection off Brown (thug) and they have a few tidy players there. Leeds fans will provide enough atmosphere and expectation for him to know he's playing for a club. Yorkshire derby first game.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hafnia Posted January 11, 2013 Report Share Posted January 11, 2013 Hilarious looking at the Wednesday forum - their fans clearly did rate him as they are gutted. They realise that their club and team is totally wrong for him though, apparently their fans are giving the players a real rough old time and the football aint the best. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Romey 1878 Posted January 11, 2013 Author Report Share Posted January 11, 2013 Hopefully this benefits him and it's extended to the end of the season. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Avinalaff Posted January 11, 2013 Report Share Posted January 11, 2013 http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/football/20987671 Good move for him. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Onedog23 Posted January 11, 2013 Report Share Posted January 11, 2013 I'm one of the many Wednesday fans who is gutted he hasn't come back. He is a very talented player but I genuinely believe that it wouldnt have been the right move for either club. Moyes will want him playing top end championship football in a team that aren't afraid to attack. Whilst he is quality with him being inexperienced and still making mistakes (which you expect from a young player) a number of our fans just won't accept it and like they have with a number of other loan players start to get on their back. It has been really hostile at times this year. The only terrible thing about it is that you have sent him to Dirty Leeds! Sure he will do well though I just hope we sign someone and by someone I mean ANYONE! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Avinalaff Posted January 11, 2013 Report Share Posted January 11, 2013 Warnock is one of my favourite managers, and is a hugely passionate man. Absolutely perfect for Ross, and if Moyes ever leaves, we can have NW as replacement. Lowensda 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bailey Posted January 11, 2013 Report Share Posted January 11, 2013 I don't think we do have enough people for the bench! Did you see our bench against Chelsea?! one or two injuries and we are relying on academy players to fill squad places. If rather have Barkley in the wings tbh. But if he is only going to come on for 10-15mins every 1 in 10 games then you could use anyone. We have plenty of body's. I would rather nurture the talent properly than hold him back for 10mins here and there. Leeds is a great place for him to go imo. Great manager (in his own way!), big club & big expectations. It will be good to see how he gets on! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mcirony Posted January 11, 2013 Report Share Posted January 11, 2013 But if he is only going to come on for 10-15mins every 1 in 10 games then you could use anyone. We have plenty of body's. I would rather nurture the talent properly than hold him back for 10mins here and there. Leeds is a great place for him to go imo. Great manager (in his own way!), big club & big expectations. It will be good to see how he gets on! I understand that he's only gettin minimal game time but being on the bench is more than just getting a run on at the end, it's about having back up for injuries. I'd rather have Barkley as back up than an academy player, that's all I'm saying. Anyways, Moyes must know what he has got better than any of us, hence the new loan deal. I think it'll do him good working under NW, though I would have liked him to go work under Holloway. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Avinalaff Posted January 11, 2013 Report Share Posted January 11, 2013 I'm one of the many Wednesday fans who is gutted he hasn't come back. He is a very talented player but I genuinely believe that it wouldnt have been the right move for either club. Moyes will want him playing top end championship football in a team that aren't afraid to attack. Whilst he is quality with him being inexperienced and still making mistakes (which you expect from a young player) a number of our fans just won't accept it and like they have with a number of other loan players start to get on their back. It has been really hostile at times this year. The only terrible thing about it is that you have sent him to Dirty Leeds! Sure he will do well though I just hope we sign someone and by someone I mean ANYONE! He was pulled because your fans were ungrateful. You only have yourselves to blame. Hopefully Leeds will appreciate our help. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lowensda Posted January 11, 2013 Report Share Posted January 11, 2013 Warnock will see Barkley does well. He's a great youth development coach, did some good stuff with a lot of young talent over the years. His own personal ethos is to build within (youth teams)...so Ross should do rather well there. I'm hoping it's extended till the end of the season personally, I think it'll do him good! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sideliner Posted January 11, 2013 Report Share Posted January 11, 2013 the big ? is who do we replace him with on the bench - maybe with another mature loan player from from a big club - surely nobody younger or less experienced - as long as we end up being a stronger squad without him most fans should be happy - let's wait and see Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GoodisonRoad Posted January 11, 2013 Report Share Posted January 11, 2013 Leeds fans reactions... http://www.lufctalk.com/forums/index.php?topic=5333 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sideliner Posted January 11, 2013 Report Share Posted January 11, 2013 Vellios was moved to the reserves for having unauthorised one on one training sessions with Ferguson after training had finished. It went on for a few weeks when he was getting games, when Ferguson told Moyes how well Vellios had progressed in these session he gave them both down the banks for not informing him what was going on .Vellios hasn't had a look in since. That came from Duncans mouth. Mr Moyes apparrently not only uses playing skills as a measure for selecting his team - which makes me wonder even more about Barkley Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hafnia Posted January 11, 2013 Report Share Posted January 11, 2013 Mr Moyes apparrently not only uses playing skills as a measure for selecting his team - which makes me wonder even more about Barkley That's exactly why Phil Neville has been getting games. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sideliner Posted January 11, 2013 Report Share Posted January 11, 2013 which also makes me wonder even more - why not loan him (or Naismith) to :Leeds rather (lol) - we know what we HAD in Neville , while we do not really know what we HAVE in Barkley or Velios Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Avinalaff Posted January 11, 2013 Report Share Posted January 11, 2013 That's exactly why Phil Neville has been getting games. He uses Nev because Nev is experienced and reliable. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
duncanmckenzieismagic Posted January 11, 2013 Report Share Posted January 11, 2013 In one game against QPR last season Barkley showed more invention and guile than anything we had seen from a young player since Rooney. Is moyes trying to make us think that he's got worse since then? So much so that he is not good enough to get ahead of gueye, Naismith and hitz against lower league opposition? I don't believe that for one minute, that game was PERFECT to give Barkley and Duffy some game time. It's all very well sayings trust moyes etc. however I think this whole Moyes "gives youth a chance" is a myth. Often when he does he plays them out of position. I do think Barkley will get experience by being in the squad, but it really is time for the next step. And then in the next game showed his inexperience when giving away possesion far too cheaply and then giving away a needless penalty. The lad is going to be a quality player but whats the rush, Moyes sees hime every day in training and Im sure he will put him in when he thinks he is ready As for Moyes not giving youth a chance ......... Jose Baxter James Vaughan Victor Anichebe Wayne Rooney Leon Osman Tony Hibbert Dan Gosling Jack Rodwell Apostos Velliois Conor McAlaney Marouane Fellaini Shane Duffy James Mcfadden Magaye Gueye Seamus Coleman Manny Fernandes Fransisco Junior ............No I dont think he ever plays youngsters Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pete0 Posted January 11, 2013 Report Share Posted January 11, 2013 And then in the next game showed his inexperience when giving away possesion far too cheaply and then giving away a needless penalty. The lad is going to be a quality player but whats the rush, Moyes sees hime every day in training and Im sure he will put him in when he thinks he is ready As for Moyes not giving youth a chance ......... Jose Baxter James Vaughan Victor Anichebe Wayne Rooney Leon Osman Tony Hibbert Dan Gosling Jack Rodwell Apostos Velliois Conor McAlaney Marouane Fellaini Shane Duffy James Mcfadden Magaye Gueye Seamus Coleman Manny Fernandes Fransisco Junior ............No I dont think he ever plays youngsters How many of them even have over 900 minutes? Fellaini had already played at international level and Hibbert already made his debut before Moyes. Manny was getting first team football for Benfica before falling out with the manager. Only youngsters brought through under Moyes are Rooney, Vaughan, Anichebe, Rodwell, and Coleman. Rooney and Rodwell are exceptional players and Vaughan was always injured, so players developed thanks to Moyes dwindles to 2 (Anichebe and Coleman). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
duncanmckenzieismagic Posted January 11, 2013 Report Share Posted January 11, 2013 How many of them even have over 900 minutes? Fellaini had already played at international level and Hibbert already made his debut before Moyes. Manny was getting first team football for Benfica before falling out with the manager. Only youngsters brought through under Moyes are Rooney, Vaughan, Anichebe, Rodwell, and Coleman. Rooney and Rodwell are exceptional players and Vaughan was always injured, so players developed thanks to Moyes dwindles to 2 (Anichebe and Coleman). At a guess Vaughan Anichebe Rooney Osman Hibbert Gosling Rodwell McFadden Felli Coleman Not sure I understand your logic about Moyes only developing 2 players so I wont bother trying to argue that point Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bailey Posted January 11, 2013 Report Share Posted January 11, 2013 And then in the next game showed his inexperience when giving away possesion far too cheaply and then giving away a needless penalty. Bloody hell, you really do hold grudges! Im surprised you actually like Pienaar because he gives the ball away several times a game, not to mention Osman, Neville, Jelavic and who could forget Distin in the semi final! He makes mistakes and he will learn from it, as he will from any competitive game he plays. God knows how many times Ronaldo gave the ball away, made bad decisions and generally cocked up when he first came over here, but Fergie gave him games, not every week and he moulded him into the player he is today. Im not saying Barkley is that good, but you have to give him every chance. Pete has a point about the young players. Its not about them playing the odd minutes here and there, its about whether they have been brought through to play consistently. Rodwell is probably the only one that would fit the bill in recent times along with Coleman. Felli was already established and the rest have never been given a real sniff despite some promise, especially when established players weren't performing. If the starting 11 are flying and everyone is playing really well, then its no surprise that the younger players will miss out, but we have been shocking at times and we have fielded out of form first teamers out of position rather than give someone else a go in their natural position. Anyway as I said before, the loan is a very good move. Hopefully he gets games and comes back an improved player. SimonButtle and pete0 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
duncanmckenzieismagic Posted January 12, 2013 Report Share Posted January 12, 2013 Bloody hell, you really do hold grudges! Im surprised you actually like Pienaar because he gives the ball away several times a game, not to mention Osman, Neville, Jelavic and who could forget Distin in the semi final! He makes mistakes and he will learn from it, as he will from any competitive game he plays. God knows how many times Ronaldo gave the ball away, made bad decisions and generally cocked up when he first came over here, but Fergie gave him games, not every week and he moulded him into the player he is today. Im not saying Barkley is that good, but you have to give him every chance. Pete has a point about the young players. Its not about them playing the odd minutes here and there, its about whether they have been brought through to play consistently. Rodwell is probably the only one that would fit the bill in recent times along with Coleman. Felli was already established and the rest have never been given a real sniff despite some promise, especially when established players weren't performing. If the starting 11 are flying and everyone is playing really well, then its no surprise that the younger players will miss out, but we have been shocking at times and we have fielded out of form first teamers out of position rather than give someone else a go in their natural position. Anyway as I said before, the loan is a very good move. Hopefully he gets games and comes back an improved player. Err No! I have said that Barkley is going to be a top player and I do really rate him I just dont think he is ready to be starting games for us yet. I trust Moyes to get his development righ and I just think at this moment in time he would be better off learning his trade by playing every week in the C|hampionship, quite how that translates to holding a grudge against the lad I dont know Some people in here keep slagging Moyes off for his perceived reluctance to play young players, I was just pointing out that he does give them a go. He tried with Barkley and it didnt work so he took him out of the fireing line and got more games into him to help him develop, I dont see a problem with that and cant understan why anybody does He also tried giving Vellious a few starts and he wasnt upto it either Look around the Premiership and I think you will find that Evertons record of bringing young players through is quite good in comparison. If these youngsters are good enough they will stay in the team,( Hibbert, Osman, Coleman, Rodwell, Rooney, Felli ) if they arent he pulls them out and gives them more time to develop People in here are too hung up about playing youngsters. Do you honestly think Ross should be starting every week and if not do you not think he is better off out on loan? Which other youngsters do you think should be playing and at the expense of who? Is Duffy better then Jags and Distin ? Is Vellios better than Jelavic? Is Garbutt better then Baines? Is Gueye better than Piennar? Just take a minute to write down your strongest Everton XI then count how many youngsters you would put in Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bailey Posted January 12, 2013 Report Share Posted January 12, 2013 Err No! I have said that Barkley is going to be a top player and I do really rate him I just dont think he is ready to be starting games for us yet. I trust Moyes to get his development righ and I just think at this moment in time he would be better off learning his trade by playing every week in the C|hampionship, quite how that translates to holding a grudge against the lad I dont know Some people in here keep slagging Moyes off for his perceived reluctance to play young players, I was just pointing out that he does give them a go. He tried with Barkley and it didnt work so he took him out of the fireing line and got more games into him to help him develop, I dont see a problem with that and cant understan why anybody does He also tried giving Vellious a few starts and he wasnt upto it either Look around the Premiership and I think you will find that Evertons record of bringing young players through is quite good in comparison. If these youngsters are good enough they will stay in the team,( Hibbert, Osman, Coleman, Rodwell, Rooney, Felli ) if they arent he pulls them out and gives them more time to develop People in here are too hung up about playing youngsters. Do you honestly think Ross should be starting every week and if not do you not think he is better off out on loan? Which other youngsters do you think should be playing and at the expense of who? Is Duffy better then Jags and Distin ? Is Vellios better than Jelavic? Is Garbutt better then Baines? Is Gueye better than Piennar? Just take a minute to write down your strongest Everton XI then count how many youngsters you would put in Its just that its all people seem to use a against the poor lad yet you dont bring it up when talking about not playing other more experienced players! I think the problem is Moyes played him and he did well, made one mistake and then got banished until the end of the season despite other players having shockers week in week out. If every player was subbed and then dropped after making a mistake Jags, Distin & Heits wouldnt be playing now and we would have Neville & Duffy at the back! Vellios started against Stoke so its hardly unsurprising that he struggled & yet again Saha struggled for the first half of the season & Cahill did too. Its not as simple as he played one game and thats it he aint good enough. You seem to be missing the main point. We dont want Garbutt to come in for Baines or Gueye for Pienaar, we want to see underperforming players dropped so that young and coming players can get a chance to show what they can do and develop. If they do well then keep giving them game time if they dont then bring back the experienced player who has hopefully had the kick up the arse he needed. Looking at the players you named there, Osman was still on loan in 2004 to Derby so he would have been 23-24 when he started getting regular games, Hibbert was probably 2002-3 that he started getting regular games but at that stage he wasnt really that brilliant anyway. Felli was bought in at a big price so he was always going to be starting games. Rooney is one of the best players to come onto the scene in recent times and was rightfully played, Rodwell was a bit in an out but mainly due to injuries & Coleman was older but inexperienced and even then Moyes took a while to give him proper game time (but he has done well with him since). I dont think anyone is arguing that these players should be in week in and week out, they should just be used ahead of players that are underperforming or who need a break. Moyes is probably the only manager in the world that would have brought on Naismith and Hitz against Cheltenham rather than Barkley/Vellios, although he did a least give Gueye a run out. Also I said in a previous post, if Ross isnt going to get meaningful game time here then he definitely needs to be out on loan. As do Vellios, Duffy, Garbutt etc etc. Sideliner 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Avinalaff Posted January 12, 2013 Report Share Posted January 12, 2013 There seems to be a theory that if somebody thinks Barkley isn't ready, then they're 'anti Barkley' or if Duffy isn't ready they're 'anti Duffy'. The truth is that those who are patient, and believe what Moyes is doing to be correct, have the young lads best interests at heart, where as those fans that are itching to watch them seem to have their own interests at heart. Footballers reach their prime around the mid 20's mark. That's quite a window for both players to develop. We're not a Championship side. We're one of the best teams around, and only the manager and his team can make decisions with any genuine knowledge. I have to agree with Dunc. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bailey Posted January 12, 2013 Report Share Posted January 12, 2013 There seems to be a theory that if somebody thinks Barkley isn't ready, then they're 'anti Barkley' or if Duffy isn't ready they're 'anti Duffy'. The truth is that those who are patient, and believe what Moyes is doing to be correct, have the young lads best interests at heart, where as those fans that are itching to watch them seem to have their own interests at heart. Footballers reach their prime around the mid 20's mark. That's quite a window for both players to develop. We're not a Championship side. We're one of the best teams around, and only the manager and his team can make decisions with any genuine knowledge. I have to agree with Dunc. I have no doubt that Dunc thinks Barkley could be a top player (the fact he said it somewhere is a giveaway ) The problem is the player wont develop if he is sitting on a bench when he could be taking the place of a player that isnt cutting it. I think the loan is a great move and its what he needs. Too many good young players all around the country end up not reaching their potential because they sit on the bench or play uncompetitve reserve games in their formative years. It might take until 24-25 to become the complete player but its what you do from 18-21 that shapes how good you will be at 24-25. Players at this age shouldnt be playing every week at the top level but they should be 'dipping' their toe into the first teams (either at the parent club or on loan). For example, I think Rodgers is potentially going to run Sterling into the ground. He could be a top player and he can make an impact in games but he has started most games in the first half of the season and it started to show. Performances dropped, he looked a little worn down by November time and it was clear that he needed a break. I dont want Barkley, Duffy, Vellios or whoever to be playing every game. They should play in suitable games when the opportunity arises either through injuries or poor form to the starting 11. Moyes may well have their best interests at heart but their definitely seems to be a reluctance to trust the young players he has. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sideliner Posted January 12, 2013 Report Share Posted January 12, 2013 i strongly disagree with the statement that " only the manager and his team can make decisions with any genuine knowledge " - even the best managers make mistakes - just less than the worst ones - all we are saying is that Moyes is making a mistake by persisting with out of form experienced players - winning 1 game out of 9 - without giving promising youngsters a proper chance (not just 10 min against Chelsea) to prove themselves - or at least giving more squad players gametime whenever the opportunity arises - he is too conservative and don't want to take chances - that is why he keeps on playing Neville while youngsters are mainly used as benchwarmers and emergency personell in the last 10 min of a game - we just disagree with his conservative gameplan of always falling back on experience instead of giving potential a fair opportunity - how many more chances does Jelavic want before Velios will get a single proper chance ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Avinalaff Posted January 12, 2013 Report Share Posted January 12, 2013 I have no doubt that Dunc thinks Barkley could be a top player (the fact he said it somewhere is a giveaway ) The problem is the player wont develop if he is sitting on a bench when he could be taking the place of a player that isnt cutting it. I think the loan is a great move and its what he needs. Too many good young players all around the country end up not reaching their potential because they sit on the bench or play uncompetitve reserve games in their formative years. It might take until 24-25 to become the complete player but its what you do from 18-21 that shapes how good you will be at 24-25. Players at this age shouldnt be playing every week at the top level but they should be 'dipping' their toe into the first teams (either at the parent club or on loan). For example, I think Rodgers is potentially going to run Sterling into the ground. He could be a top player and he can make an impact in games but he has started most games in the first half of the season and it started to show. Performances dropped, he looked a little worn down by November time and it was clear that he needed a break. I dont want Barkley, Duffy, Vellios or whoever to be playing every game. They should play in suitable games when the opportunity arises either through injuries or poor form to the starting 11. Moyes may well have their best interests at heart but their definitely seems to be a reluctance to trust the young players he has. Barkley 'isn't cutting it' or he would be picked. Maybe Moyes just doesn't know about Barkley being good and has overlooked him? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Avinalaff Posted January 12, 2013 Report Share Posted January 12, 2013 i strongly disagree with the statement that " only the manager and his team can make decisions with any genuine knowledge " - even the best managers make mistakes - just less than the worst ones - all we are saying is that Moyes is making a mistake by persisting with out of form experienced players - winning 1 game out of 9 - without giving promising youngsters a proper chance (not just 10 min against Chelsea) to prove themselves - or at least giving more squad players gametime whenever the opportunity arises - he is too conservative and don't want to take chances - that is why he keeps on playing Neville while youngsters are mainly used as benchwarmers and emergency personell in the last 10 min of a game - we just disagree with his conservative gameplan of always falling back on experience instead of giving potential a fair opportunity - how many more chances does Jelavic want before Velios will get a single proper chance ? I strongly disagree that a fan watching the odd stream from his South African armchair seems to think he knows better than the manager of Everton Football Club about what players to pick, despite the said manager working along side the said players every day. I also find it interesting that our resident South African Psychological Analyst has already profiled David Moyes, and underlined where he is going wrong. Perhaps you should write Kenwright a strong letter telling him that he is clearly hiring the wrong guy, and that you are the reigning PS3 Football Manager 2013 champion, and have identified what needs to be done to resolve our every issue. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pete0 Posted January 12, 2013 Report Share Posted January 12, 2013 Barkley 'isn't cutting it' or he would be picked. Maybe Moyes just doesn't know about Barkley being good and has overlooked him? Jags and Pienaar weren't cutting it and were still picked every week. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Avinalaff Posted January 12, 2013 Report Share Posted January 12, 2013 Jags and Pienaar weren't cutting it and were still picked every week. I give in. Barkley is clearly deserving of the Ballon D'or and Moyes should be sacked for not playing him. Sort it Bill. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pete0 Posted January 12, 2013 Report Share Posted January 12, 2013 I give in. Barkley is clearly deserving of the Ballon D'or and Moyes should be sacked for not playing him. Sort it Bill. He should be questioned for not dropping underperforming players. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.