Arsenal (H)

[Guest rusty747]

I remember the great Everton team of the 80s and one of their great strengths was their mental toughness. I remember an interview with Andy Gray where he said that if we went a goal down it just made us angry and we set about scoring at least two as soon as possible. Similarly, he said that once we were a goal up we felt really good as very few teams scored twice against us.

Contrast that with Everton of today where, even at 2-0 up we can't enjoy the performance as we know that we are always likely to concede a goal and, once we do that we run out of legs, confidence and ideas, and we invariably concede a second.

Bobby needs to get the psychiatrists in and teach our talented squad how to think like winners and play with more arrogance and confidence. We got what we deserved today and we will win bugger all until we change our mind set. I thought that was supposed to be one of Bobby's great strengths but it is not evident in our play at all.

[Steve_E]

Just seen a gif of the goals again and I hadn't even noticed how badly Osman was beaten for Ramsey's goal. Coleman and McCarthy just keep backing off, I don't think Coleman knew how much he had backed off because it seems that when the cross finally came in he was fucking covering the side netting rather than the near post. Osman fucked up as well. And the second goal is just all on Jags for me, perfect cross for him to head away but he forgot he doesn't have Michael Jordan's hangtime.

Edited August 23, 2014 by Steve_E

[MC11]

Just seen a gif of the goals again and I hadn't even noticed how badly Osman was beaten for Ramsey's goal. Coleman and McCarthy just keep backing off, I don't think Coleman knew how much he had back off because it seems that when the cross finally came in he was fucking covering the side netting rather the near post. Osman fucked up as well. And the second goal is just all on Jags for me, perfect cross for him to head away but he forgot he doesn't have Michael Jordan's hangtime.

 

Coleman had two men running at him most of the second half. We were far too narrow in midfield. No protection from the wingers at all. But I'm guessing Roberto had told them to stay up. In the second half Monreal had a free for all.

[pete0]

I think that is just because McCarthy (and Coleman) switched off rather than fitness. McCarthy was making 60 yard runs at the end and Barry was the most composed player on the pitch.

Running forward is easier, they lagged defensively closin the gaps rather than get close to the opposition.

[Bailey]

Just seen a gif of the goals again and I hadn't even noticed how badly Osman was beaten for Ramsey's goal. Coleman and McCarthy just keep backing off, I don't think Coleman knew how much he had backed off because it seems that when the cross finally came in he was fucking covering the side netting rather than the near post. Osman fucked up as well. And the second goal is just all on Jags for me, perfect cross for him to head away but he forgot he doesn't have Michael Jordan's hangtime.

 

Ramsey just leaves him for dead. I think Distin especially could have done a little more though, he had no-one to mark and could have also covered the run.

 

Coleman had two men running at him most of the second half. We were far too narrow in midfield. No protection from the wingers at all. But I'm guessing Roberto had told them to stay up. In the second half Monreal had a free for all.

 

McCarthy was the man who helped cover out wide. Thought they did a great job together bar that one cross.

[marcopaulo]

Fuck

 

Off

 

Everton

[Peter H]

Im so fucking angry right now

[J*A*C*K*E*L*Z]

Mad the way osman plays for everton ...

[MC11]

Think we're lacking fitness with certain players. The only positive we can take from the 2 games is we haven't been beat. But the manner in which we are just folding is just disappointing.

 

That's a fantastic result for the Arsenal though!

[MC11]

Ramsey just leaves him for dead. I think Distin especially could have done a little more though, he had no-one to mark and could have also covered the run.

 

 

 

McCarthy was the man who helped cover out wide. Thought they did a great job together bar that one cross.

I thought McCarthy had a great game. But both goals came from the left.

[GMorrison183]

Normally I stick to lurking (I use to post back in '07), but if this game doesn't change how Martinez looks at some of his players, then I hold him solely accountable moving forward.

 

Leon Osman should never see the pitch unless he's a 2nd half sub against the bottom half or lesser opponents in the cups. Everyone will focus on the 1st goal (and rightly so), but Ossie consistently commits the same cardinal sins all game and has since last year (not to mention every fan can see he only lasts 45-60 minutes tops).

• Box: box he positions himself in front of the attacker when defending but he simply doesn't know how to put in a good challenge. This lets attackers pick out some quality passes/crosses, and a few of the missed opportunities today were because he doesn't pressure.
• As a knock on effect, because of how Ossie positions himself Distin and Baines relax because they think an attacker is covered if they make a run. Unfortunately that's 100% not the case with Ossie. His marking has and always will be poor, which has gotten worse since he's lost pace.
• Last, he offers nothing as a outlet when we regain possession in our box because he doesn't have the pace or positioning to ever break. This forces defenders to make bad clearances because he doesn't make himself available as a good option to push forward.

 

What compounded and spotlighted Osman's ineffectiveness were the tactics behind 2 substitutions: Atsu and McGeady. I actually do think both are quality players, but Bobby has to have the situational awareness to say as a final instruction you have to track back. I don't think it's fair to have a go at either of them because we don't know if tactically Martinez instructed that, but regardless of the culprit it was a bad decision. The last 20 minutes was filled with 3v2s against Coleman/McCarthy and 3v1.5's against Baines and Osman (I'm willing to give a .5 because Ossie can create the illusion someone's marked if the passer is under pressure).

 

Last, while I'm not willing to overreact and throw the towel in on the Jagielka/Distin partnership, their willingness to accept taking wild clearances/swings at the ball (at a much higher rate than last year) is a sign of either fatigue, being off the pace, or old habits coming back. I counted 4+ giveaways by Jags in the first 30 minutes alone and Distin wasn't much better.

 

I'll stop my venting there, but how Martinez responds going forward will tell me a lot about how much I should trust him.

[MC11]

Normally I stick to lurking (I use to post back in '07), but if this game doesn't change how Martinez looks at some of his players, then I hold him solely accountable moving forward.

 

Leon Osman should never see the pitch unless he's a 2nd half sub against the bottom half or lesser opponents in the cups. Everyone will focus on the 1st goal (and rightly so), but Ossie consistently commits the same cardinal sins all game and has since last year (not to mention every fan can see he only lasts 45-60 minutes tops).

 

• Box: box he positions himself in front of the attacker when defending but he simply doesn't know how to put in a good challenge. This lets attackers pick out some quality passes/crosses, and a few of the missed opportunities today were because he doesn't pressure.
• As a knock on effect, because of how Ossie positions himself Distin and Baines relax because they think an attacker is covered if they make a run. Unfortunately that's 100% not the case with Ossie. His marking has and always will be poor, which has gotten worse since he's lost pace.
• Last, he offers nothing as a outlet when we regain possession in our box because he doesn't have the pace or positioning to ever break. This forces defenders to make bad clearances because he doesn't make himself available as a good option to push forward.

What compounded and spotlighted Osman's ineffectiveness were the tactics behind 2 substitutions: Atsu and McGeady. I actually do think both are quality players, but Bobby has to have the situational awareness to say as a final instruction you have to track back. I don't think it's fair to have a go at either of them because we don't know if tactically Martinez instructed that, but regardless of the culprit it was a bad decision. The last 20 minutes was filled with 3v2s against Coleman/McCarthy and 3v1.5's against Baines and Osman (I'm willing to give a .5 because Ossie can create the illusion someone's marked if the passer is under pressure).

 

Last, while I'm not willing to overreact and throw the towel in on the Jagielka/Distin partnership, their willingness to accept taking wild clearances/swings at the ball (at a much higher rate than last year) is a sign of either fatigue, being off the pace, or old habits coming back. I counted 4+ giveaways by Jags in the first 30 minutes alone and Distin wasn't much better.

 

I'll stop my venting there, but how Martinez responds going forward will tell me a lot about how much I should trust him.

Best post I've read on here in a while. Fully agree with Everything in that!

 

The critical error was keeping the wingers pushed up and having Osman, who has no legs at all in a 3 man midfield.

[Paddock]

I've not been convinced on Martinez since we got him. I'm still not convinced now. Before anyone jumps on it it's nothing to do with the last 2 results. He inherited a good team and Inthink he got lucky last season as that team had gone stale and he gave it a lift and we rode the crest of a wave.

 

This season will be his real test. The novelty has worn off and it's now no longer a "transitional" season where he had nothing to lose.

 

His subs this season have been shocking he's cost us 4 points this season of that I'm of no doubt. Bringing Osman on for Pienaar was always going to bite us on the arse our defence looks shocking, his defence at Wigan was shocking and I think this season he'll be found out that he isn't all he's being cracked up to be.

 

I know I'll get plenty of stick for this but ae'll see how relevant this post is come the end of the season.

[MC11]

Don't say that on here mate, you can't say stuff like that. I'm not completely convinced yet. He inherited a good back four which he still has. He's a breath of fresh air going forward but Moyes would have shut shop with 10 mins to go.

 

I just don't think Martinez knows when to shut shop. Or if he even can!

[Paddock]

Don't say that on here mate, you can't say stuff like that. I'm not completely convinced yet. He inherited a good back four which he still has. He's a breath of fresh air going forward but Moyes would have shut shop with 10 mins to go.

 

I just don't think Martinez knows when to shut shop. Or if he even can!

I can only say what I feel Miguel and from the minute he signed I wasn't convinced I'm of the same opinion of you I think he talks absolute shite he sounds like he's been pre programmed and he just drones on..

 

"Well Roberto your team lost 11-0 today what's your thoughts?

 

Martinez... Well it hurts of course but we will learn from it and there were positives for sure, we could have got a couple of goals and I thought we looked good going forward but we need to stop switching off and conceding sloppy goals but I think my players were perfect tonight perfect in the sense that we were committed and showed real character.

 

Commentator .. Just one more thing Roberto , you're wifes ran off with David Moyes and they've taken the do

Martinez.. Well there are plenty of positives to take from it, the dog farted a lot and she wasn't very good in bed anyway now I wont have to cut the grass on a Sunday and go for boring walks

 

But Roberto wont you be lonely

 

For sure

[MC11]

I can only say what I feel Miguel and from the minute he signed I wasn't convinced I'm of the same opinion of you I think he talks absolute shite he sounds like he's been pre programmed and he just drones on..

"Well Roberto your team lost 11-0 today what's your thoughts?

Martinez... Well it hurts of course but we will learn from it and there were positives for sure, we could have got a couple of goals and I thought we looked good going forward but we need to stop switching off and conceding sloppy goals but I think my players were perfect tonight perfect in the sense that we were committed and showed real character.

Commentator .. Just one more thing Roberto , you're wifes ran off with David Moyes and they've taken the do

Martinez.. Well there are plenty of positives to take from it, the dog farted a lot and she wasn't very good in bed anyway now I wont have to cut the grass on a Sunday and go for boring walks

But Roberto wont you be lonely

For sure

Mate, I've been saying this for ages. I can't listen to him for more than 5 minutes. It's always what you you expect to hear. There's no real emotion in anything.

 

One things for sure if he's a pretender he'll come unstuck. As I say he has brilliant tactics going forward. His defensive capabilities (tactics wise) I'm still not convinced. Today I solely blame on him. The tactics were all wrong in the second half. You have to evolve into a game and it was crying for us to close shop!

[Paddock]

Mate, I've been saying this for ages. I can't listen to him for more than 5 minutes. It's always what you you expect to hear. There's no real emotion in anything.

 

One things for sure if he's a pretender he'll come unstuck. As I say he has brilliant tactics going forward. His defensive capabilities (tactics wise) I'm still not convinced. Today I solely blame on him. The tactics were all wrong in the second half. You have to evolve into a game and it was crying for us to close shop!

Yep, I'm not for one minute saying he's clueless. Going forward we're great. Fluent exciting and pleasing on the eye but it's no good if you can't stop leaking goals.

 

Today when he brought Osman on I said to the lad behind me that it was a stupid sub and he'd be out of legs before 60 minutes and there was no way he was going to sub him again. To be fair I thought Osman done ok, he showed quick feet and looked lively but his legs have gone and players were just walking past him with ease. That was his first error then at 75 minutes we were struggling they were coming at us we were winning it back then just booting it straight back to them, they come at us again we got it back and sloppily gave it back (remember Leicester the week before) so what does he do, take Lukaku off (whio had been signalling to the bench for 10 minutes to come off before he got his wish) and put Mgeady on the Mirallas (who was playing well and still looked to have plenty in the tank and was causing problems on the break) and puts Atsu on.

 

Why would he not put Besic on and protect what we had. Our central midfield was flagging (mainly osman) so surely you would bolster it with an extra body and some extra protection. We were 2-0 and 2-1 up with 8 minutes to go and he's making attack minded like for like subs. He needs to learn that it's not all about "being positive"

 

I'm frustrated to death with him already snd it's only been 2 games .

[Newty82]

Gutted. Absolutely gutted.

 

I'm not going to use the powers of hindsight to say this should have happened or that should have happened. So and so should have done x, y but not z. It's false.

 

The only thing I will say is that I thought the team tired alarmingly. I believe firmly that we need more match fitness. More real pace Premiership stamina. I always say that pre season results don't concern me. But I do remember feeling, after reading some reports from you boys in pre season, a bit concerned that we weren't looking sharp enough. We need need to get up to pace.

 

No doubt we've all played footy or another stamina based sport. You know it's easy when your fit and fresh. Every pass is easy. Then you tire, and the mental side of it goes downhill quicker than anything. Slow to follow your man, every stroke of the ball is labored, every tackle too late. That's just how we looked later on today.

 

The plus side is that it's another 90 minutes of tempo football played. It's a fair point gained (doesn't feel that way!) and when we were fresh, we were the dogs bollocks. Onwards and upwards.

 

(End note...its early days but I'll be keeping an eye on Jags n Distin. Time to start bleeding the next gen in more???)

[Newty82]

By the way...go back through the threads to years gone by. Or search your memory.

 

In the previous era, I remember I always told my mates and anyone that would listen that the most annoying thing about the then Everton way was that you could guarantee that if we were winning after 70 odd minutes, we'd start sitting deeper and deeper and clinging on. A hell of a lot of times it just did not work. It's worth remembering.

[London Blue]

You cant blame the manager for players having dizzy moments.

 

If he had put another defensive player on for Mirallas, then we would have carried less threat on the counter and we would have dropped even deeper if that was possible, inviting even more pressure.

 

For me Howard should have cut out the cross for the first goal. The second goal was always likely after they scored, as we tired, and panicked. The second goal was from us loosing possession, Baines getting isolated, then a somewhat lucky cross.

 

We must get this monkey off our back as soon as possible, and I believe we can do that against Chelsea, if we get fitter and have more energy in the second half.

 

We are 2 games into a 38 game season, relax, there is a long way to go.

 

The manager has got us playing good, attractive possession football, and challenging the top 4. We are developing a very good squad, and some amazing youngsters, and he has got Naisy playing like a world beater.

 

If people don't like his tactics or his methods then they should look back to the Moyes era, and shudder at his tactics, negativity and subs.

 

We will get better as the squad gets fitter, and get back into the grove.

[MC11]

You cant blame the manager for players having dizzy moments.

 

If he had put another defensive player on for Mirallas, then we would have carried less threat on the counter and we would have dropped even deeper if that was possible, inviting even more pressure.

 

For me Howard should have cut out the cross for the first goal. The second goal was always likely after they scored, as we tired, and panicked. The second goal was from us loosing possession, Baines getting isolated, then a somewhat lucky cross.

 

We must get this monkey off our back as soon as possible, and I believe we can do that against Chelsea, if we get fitter and have more energy in the second half.

 

We are 2 games into a 38 game season, relax, there is a long way to go.

 

The manager has got us playing good, attractive possession football, and challenging the top 4. We are developing a very good squad, and some amazing youngsters, and he has got Naisy playing like a world beater.

 

If people don't like his tactics or his methods then they should look back to the Moyes era, and shudder at his tactics, negativity and subs.

 

We will get better as the squad gets fitter, and get back into the grove.

 

The players didn't have dizzy moments we were under the cosh for half an hour and he didn't change the obvious. We were far too narrow in midfield and the wingers seem to have been told to stay up. That left us with 8 men behind the ball 90% of the time and Arsenal doubling up on us time and time again!

[Howardshands]

We'll be fine. What's our goal in your minds 5 years from now? To make the Champions League, be a consistently Champion's League caliber team, or what? If we want to be a consistently Champions League caliber team 5 years from now, we can finish as low as 7 consistently for the next 3 years, do well in the Europa Cup, and further build our foundation. I don't see us finishing lower than 7th, and it's telling that we tied with Arsenal and are very upset about it. That tells me that we've come a long way in a short time. In other words, this loss sucks, but with our end goals in mind the sting is reduced a good deal.

[Paddock]

We'll be fine. What's our goal in your minds 5 years from now? To make the Champions League, be a consistently Champion's League caliber team, or what? If we want to be a consistently Champions League caliber team 5 years from now, we can finish as low as 7 consistently for the next 3 years, do well in the Europa Cup, and further build our foundation. I don't see us finishing lower than 7th, and it's telling that we tied with Arsenal and are very upset about it. That tells me that we've come a long way in a short time. In other words, this loss sucks, but with our end goals in mind the sting is reduced a good deal.

We've finished 7th or so for the last 8-9 years now.

[Paddock]

The players didn't have dizzy moments we were under the cosh for half an hour and he didn't change the obvious. We were far too narrow in midfield and the wingers seem to have been told to stay up. That left us with 8 men behind the ball 90% of the time and Arsenal doubling up on us time and time again!

Exactly this.

[Howardshands]

We've finished 7th or so for the last 8-9 years now.

I've only been following the team for about 6 years now, but was under the impression that we've been sacrificing the fruits of our good standings due to financial difficulties which we have recently broke free from. So wouldn't a couple more consistently top 7 finishes and great Europa League showing help us progress?

[MC11]

If we finish 7th that's a shite season for me.

[Bailey]

The players didn't have dizzy moments we were under the cosh for half an hour and he didn't change the obvious. We were far too narrow in midfield and the wingers seem to have been told to stay up. That left us with 8 men behind the ball 90% of the time and Arsenal doubling up on us time and time again!

 

We were under the cosh? We were comfortable in the first half and we were even in the second half until they scored. On the whole, they didnt carry much threat and our was our silly mistakes (coleman leaving Giroud just after half time, Distin/Jags playing in Giroud again for their second chance, McCarthy/Coleman/Osman for their goal and Jags/Distin for their 2nd goal). I dont really recall them having any more chances which isnt exactly a team struggling to defend.

 

The only winger that was meant to stay up was on the right hand side (Lukaku or Atsu at the end) and the left hand side was supposed to track back, as is virtually always the case (Pienaar, Mirallas, McGeady). Mirallas actually did a very good job of getting back which meant we had a block of four in midfield allowing McCarthy to cover the right hand channel with Coleman. If a move breaks down with Mirallas forward then he will get caught out of position but thats the same for every team in the world.

 

I thought we were the most likely to score next when they did score. We had weathered the mini storm (after the 2nd Giroud chance) and we should have made more of our opportunities on the counter (mainly stemming from Lukaku). The Baines cut back which was narrowly missed, Naismith miscontrolling what should have been a clear chance and then the chance that Osman had which he was too slow to react to went begging and then they scored. We should have been home and hosed before they scored their first.

[Paddock]

 

We were under the cosh? We were comfortable in the first half and we were even in the second half until they scored. On the whole, they didnt carry much threat and our was our silly mistakes (coleman leaving Giroud just after half time, Distin/Jags playing in Giroud again for their second chance, McCarthy/Coleman/Osman for their goal and Jags/Distin for their 2nd goal). I dont really recall them having any more chances which isnt exactly a team struggling to defend.

 

The only winger that was meant to stay up was on the right hand side (Lukaku or Atsu at the end) and the left hand side was supposed to track back, as is virtually always the case (Pienaar, Mirallas, McGeady). Mirallas actually did a very good job of getting back which meant we had a block of four in midfield allowing McCarthy to cover the right hand channel with Coleman. If a move breaks down with Mirallas forward then he will get caught out of position but thats the same for every team in the world.

 

I thought we were the most likely to score next when they did score. We had weathered the mini storm (after the 2nd Giroud chance) and we should have made more of our opportunities on the counter (mainly stemming from Lukaku). The Baines cut back which was narrowly missed, Naismith miscontrolling what should have been a clear chance and then the chance that Osman had which he was too slow to react to went begging and then they scored. We should have been home and hosed before they scored their first.

Comfortable in the second half? They were all over us second half. We were sloppy they came at us constantly wave after wave.

 

In what way where we ever comfortable in the second half? They were all over us!

[MC11]

We were under the cosh? We were comfortable in the first half and we were even in the second half until they scored. On the whole, they didnt carry much threat and our was our silly mistakes (coleman leaving Giroud just after half time, Distin/Jags playing in Giroud again for their second chance, McCarthy/Coleman/Osman for their goal and Jags/Distin for their 2nd goal). I dont really recall them having any more chances which isnt exactly a team struggling to defend.

 

The only winger that was meant to stay up was on the right hand side (Lukaku or Atsu at the end) and the left hand side was supposed to track back, as is virtually always the case (Pienaar, Mirallas, McGeady). Mirallas actually did a very good job of getting back which meant we had a block of four in midfield allowing McCarthy to cover the right hand channel with Coleman. If a move breaks down with Mirallas forward then he will get caught out of position but thats the same for every team in the world.

 

I thought we were the most likely to score next when they did score. We had weathered the mini storm (after the 2nd Giroud chance) and we should have made more of our opportunities on the counter (mainly stemming from Lukaku). The Baines cut back which was narrowly missed, Naismith miscontrolling what should have been a clear chance and then the chance that Osman had which he was too slow to react to went begging and then they scored. We should have been home and hosed before they scored their first.

Bailey you live on another planet mate.

[MikeO]

The Baines cut back which was narrowly missed

If only Bainsy was a bit more "Suarez". He was pushed twice in the area and a little tumble we'd have had a pen and game over.