US Politics/Biden Presidency (Trump-free zone)

[Chach]

4 hours ago, Matt said:

Will be interesting to see what Trump does to steal the limelight back...

Busy defining late capitalism 

[Matt]

3 hours ago, Chach said:

Busy defining late capitalism 

When I saw that I genuinely thought he’d just bought it all for himself as a big “fuck you” to everyone not getting paid during the shutdown 

[nyblue23]

6 hours ago, Chach said:

I'm going to have to call you on the capitalism strawman, its the second or third time you've done it and I haven't mentioned or advocated capitalism once, otherwise I agree with pretty much everything you've posted which is why it's such a conundrum. 

Hillary ran on a platform of raising taxes, infrastructure spending and had what seems to be a pretty cogent plan to get to universal healthcare coverage which she sees as the first stage of getting to single payer, so the question is was it just the sexism/anti establishment vibe or was that not enough?

I don't think any of the aspirations you mentioned above are particularly populist, they're all things that should be at the heart of any good centre left or centre right government, it never ceases to amaze me that things like the environment, education and healthcare are seen as left wing issues. Bonkers.

 

Repeatedly citing someone (Zepps) who is defending capitalism against the backdrop of socialism and alleging that they might have it spot on makes your appeal to the strawman a pretty weak one, but I’ll admit that you yourself never touted capitalism as a proven system (though you did explicitly mention it if you scroll up and Zepps also explicitly mentions it). Still, you did argue that a single-payer system was unacheivable at this stage, which makes me feel like my charges were pretty “spot on” in your defense of at least preserving a capitalist status quo for the time being. (I could also note that those charges were conditional in nature, as in “If you allege this, then...” but I digress.)

Now that my own pretense is out of the way, I’m glad you agree. The thing is, in this country, agreeing with those beliefs aligns you with only the furthest left candidates. Because of the lack of regulation of our financial sector and the pervasiveness of money in our campaigns for both elected offices and legislation, those beliefs also necessitate an extremely skeptical attitude towards capitalism in this country generally, as otherwise, we have none of the revenue required to even begin addressing those issues.

The ACA, which Hillary supported and wanted to strengthen, while well-intentioned, did very little to actually make healthcare affordable for most who need it. While it did insure literal millions of Americans at a baseline level, for most, actually using that insurance for anything but extreme medical emergencies was extremely cost-prohibitive. Trump’s rollback of the individual insurance mandate, which was inevitable in a congress that flip-flops as much as the American Congress, has only strengthened that prohibition.  Hillary also claimed at one point during her campaign that single-payer health care would never happen:(https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.cbsnews.com/amp/news/hillary-clinton-single-payer-health-care-will-never-ever-happen/

Universal healthcare does not work in a free market, and it never will (especially when pharmaceutical companies go nearly unregulated and have as much legislative buying power as they currently do).

Hillary was hateable for so many reasons, and identity politics were pretty inarguably at the center of those reasons. But she was also a bad candidate for the reasons I cited previously and others (calling black children “Super predators,” attacking her husband’s female accusers, voting for the war in Iraq, etc.). The DNC had no business supporting her to the lengths that they did. I voted for her because I was terrified of Trump, but for literally no other reason. While she did run on a campaign of raising taxes slightly (cutting them for some) and promised infrastructure improvement, she never went quite far enough, including her plan to increase defense spending.

And lastly, yes, I agree. Those are what the left in this country like to call “basic human rights,” though even the Democratic establishment often shies away from using that language.

[Matt]

Universal healthcare works in a couple of free markets, unless a conservative government is in place 

[nyblue23]

8 hours ago, Matt said:

Universal healthcare works in a couple of free markets, unless a conservative government is in place 

I was a bit sauced while writing that. I meant an unregulated market, specifically referring to regulations on healthcare and pharmaceutical companies. Had a few too many last night hah.

[Chach]

18 hours ago, Matt said:

Universal healthcare works in a couple of free markets, unless a conservative government is in place 

We actually have a mixed system in Aus, we are levied 2.5% of our gross income for Medicare which is the government system and if you earn above a certain amount and don't have private cover you are levied a further 1%. The 1% for me and the partner is about roughly the same as the premiums for the private cover.

There's waiting lists on the public system for non life threatening procedures but it works pretty well.

[markjazzbassist]

1 hour ago, Chach said:

We actually have a mixed system in Aus, we are levied 2.5% of our gross income for Medicare which is the government system and if you earn above a certain amount and don't have private cover you are levied a further 1%. The 1% for me and the partner is about roughly the same as the premiums for the private cover.

There's waiting lists on the public system for non life threatening procedures but it works pretty well.

so its like england with both private and public?  i've learned recently canada has ONLY government sponsored healthcare.  there is no private up there.  

[MikeO]

38 minutes ago, markjazzbassist said:

so its like england with both private and public?

A lot of doctors/consultants over here work in both sectors incidentally. One private healthcare provider (Nuffield) actually uses the fact as a positive on their website, "All of our consultants also work with the NHS and are experts in their field."

Just wanting to emphasise that NHS care is not inferior to private over here, you may have to wait a bit longer for non-essential stuff and you're unlikely to get a private room (though I have more than once), but you'll probably end up under the care of the same bloke as if you'd crossed the road to the private place.

[markjazzbassist]

10 minutes ago, MikeO said:

A lot of doctors/consultants over here work in both sectors incidentally. One private healthcare provider (Nuffield) actually uses the fact as a positive on their website, "All of our consultants also work with the NHS and are experts in their field."

Just wanting to emphasise that NHS care is not inferior to private over here, you may have to wait a bit longer for non-essential stuff and you're unlikely to get a private room (though I have more than once), but you'll probably end up under the care of the same bloke as if you'd crossed the road to the private place.

yeah i totally get it.  i think your system is the best because it forces the private care to be both accountable and cheap.  over here it's all private so they charge whatever the hell they want and you are stuck going to the providers your insurance accepts (and it's expensive as hell).  with both public and private it forces private to compete so they have to be cheap and able to provide the service quickly.  but for those that can't afford there is public (or those that choose to wait).  

[MikeO]

22 minutes ago, markjazzbassist said:

yeah i totally get it.  i think your system is the best because it forces the private care to be both accountable and cheap.  over here it's all private so they charge whatever the hell they want and you are stuck going to the providers your insurance accepts (and it's expensive as hell).  with both public and private it forces private to compete so they have to be cheap and able to provide the service quickly.  but for those that can't afford there is public (or those that choose to wait).  

Think I'm right in saying that the private sector over here is all not-for-profit as well, my in-laws often went private and sure it's easier lying in a comfy single room than it is hearing someone die opposite you on a ward (actually happened to me in 1994, he had visitors a few hours later who hadn't been told and just saw an empty space where his bed had been). For my recent issues though I couldn't have got better treatment anywhere.

[Matt]

1 hour ago, MikeO said:

A lot of doctors/consultants over here work in both sectors incidentally. One private healthcare provider (Nuffield) actually uses the fact as a positive on their website, "All of our consultants also work with the NHS and are experts in their field."

Just wanting to emphasise that NHS care is not inferior to private over here, you may have to wait a bit longer for non-essential stuff and you're unlikely to get a private room (though I have more than once), but you'll probably end up under the care of the same bloke as if you'd crossed the road to the private place.

Care and technology yes, but the food and rooms are much better in private 

[MikeO]

1 minute ago, Matt said:

Care and technology yes, but the food and rooms are much better in private 

Food wasn't really an issue for me as it was being pumped direct into my stomach overnight, but they might have had a quieter pump. 

[rubecula]

11 minutes ago, Matt said:

Care and technology yes, but the food and rooms are much better in private 

it all depends on where you go for treatment I think Matt,  I was treated very well in the local hospital when I was ill  but the hospital was not up to date at all when compared to the hospitals in Liverpool.  but the staff more than made up for it.

on the whole I think I prefer the local hospital more than the ultra modern type such as Whiston

[Palfy]

3 hours ago, markjazzbassist said:

so its like england with both private and public?  i've learned recently canada has ONLY government sponsored healthcare.  there is no private up there.  

I never knew that I have been there a few times and vaguely remember one of my cousins complaining about the cost of health care, do they got stopped at their source of income some form of tax related directly to healthcare.

[Palfy]

3 hours ago, markjazzbassist said:

so its like england with both private and public?  i've learned recently canada has ONLY government sponsored healthcare.  there is no private up there.  

In our main hospital for the NHS the Wilshire Health Authority which runs all of the county's NHS sites opened a new wing which they turned into a private healthcare wing for paying customers, run and staffed by the NHS I think it posses a huge conflict of interest because the private patients take precedence over NHS patients for Doctors Nurses scanners and theatres.

[markjazzbassist]

27 minutes ago, Palfy said:

I never knew that I have been there a few times and vaguely remember one of my cousins complaining about the cost of health care, do they got stopped at their source of income some form of tax related directly to healthcare.

it's funded through income tax on everyone.  

[Palfy]

23 minutes ago, markjazzbassist said:

it's funded through income tax on everyone.  

Same as here then, well you learn something new everyday and today I learnt how the Canadian healthcare operates cheers MJB

[Chach]

10 hours ago, markjazzbassist said:

so its like england with both private and public?  i've learned recently canada has ONLY government sponsored healthcare.  there is no private up there.  

Yeah, and like Mike said all best doctors are in the public system. there's a lot of English nurses over here and the ones I have spoken to have all said what happens in our private hospitals here wouldn't pass muster in the NHS in the UK.

[Matt]

16 hours ago, MikeO said:

Food wasn't really an issue for me as it was being pumped direct into my stomach overnight, but they might have had a quieter pump. 

We only have private here in Swiss, but the food and rooms are like a 5 star hotel. C’s meal after she gave birth was a full on steak and veg platter, with a view of the Alps to boot!

[MikeO]

1 hour ago, Matt said:

We only have private here in Swiss, but the food and rooms are like a 5 star hotel. C’s meal after she gave birth was a full on steak and veg platter, with a view of the Alps to boot!

Very nice. My first "meal" after my surgery (more than five years ago now, where does the time go?) was brekkie and I got some toast and tool a big bite of it.....completely forgetting that they'd taken out my lower back teeth on both sides during the op so I was trying to chew with my gum. Hospital food is dire though, I go along with that.

[Chach]

https://www.buzzfeednews.com/article/jasonleopold/trump-russia-cohen-moscow-tower-mueller-investigation?bftwnews&utm_term=4ldqpgc#4ldqpgc

[Sibdane]

2 hours ago, Chach said:

https://www.buzzfeednews.com/article/jasonleopold/trump-russia-cohen-moscow-tower-mueller-investigation?bftwnews&utm_term=4ldqpgc#4ldqpgc

I'm not surprised, but until there's some actual action then I'm taking everything with a grain of salt. Hearing some new accusation every day is turning my hair grey. I'm ready for this nightmare of a president to end.

If he somehow gets a second term then my head will explode.

[nyblue23]

3 hours ago, Chach said:

https://www.buzzfeednews.com/article/jasonleopold/trump-russia-cohen-moscow-tower-mueller-investigation?bftwnews&utm_term=4ldqpgc#4ldqpgc

This should be a bombshell if true, but like everything else shitty this Oompa Loompa has done, I’m sure nothing will come of it.

[markjazzbassist]

the courts are already all in his favor, he has appointed more judges and faster than any other administration ever.  he and the repubs had a plan, and they've executed it extremely well.  i can't stand the greedy fuckers but i have to hand it to them, they are so much better at implementing their ideas than the democrats who really lack vision, leadership, and efficiency.

 

he's got the supreme court in his favor and about to really be his way with Ruth Bader Ginsburg health issues and age.  The country is fucked.

[johnh]

On 17/01/2019 at 16:25, MikeO said:

Think I'm right in saying that the private sector over here is all not-for-profit as well, my in-laws often went private and sure it's easier lying in a comfy single room than it is hearing someone die opposite oyou on a ward (actually happened to me in 1994, he had visitors a few hours later who hadn't been told and just saw an empty space where his bed had been). For my recent issues though I couldn't have got better treatment anywhere.

If you go to see a consultant privately, you can't then have any subsequent connected procedures on the NHS, which I think is fair. The above comment by Mike reminded me.  When I was eight (1944) I was in hospital for 10 days.  On my first day, there was no room in the children's ward so they put me in an adult ward.  That night, I was kept awake by the man in the bed opposite, groaning all night.  Next morning, at about 6 o'clock, two men came in with a trolley, lifted the man on and covered him with a black cloth.  Even at that young age I knew what was going on!  (Walton Hospital)

[MikeO]

10 minutes ago, johnh said:

If you go to see a consultant privately, you can't then have any subsequent connected procedures on the NHS, which I think is fair.

I didn't know that. Thing with the NHS also is that you can get referred to the best in the country wherever you live; guy who became a great mate of mine and went through the same sort of treatment I had had an unusual complication post treatment and wanted a "new" operation (high risk but to potentially improve his quality of life, he's a Scottish ex-marine so wasn't ever going to take the low risk route) that only two surgeons in the country would do, so he got referred to London. Had to pay out quite a lot in travel etc and the op was twelve hours plus but he did it, got the badge and it all worked out well, though sadly they couldn't cure his Celtic supporting issues.

[Palfy]

Listening to the news earlier and the extent of the amount of Mexican children removed from their parents and still lost in the system is believed to be thousands more than was admitted to.

Any person never mind whether there the President or not who presides over that should be sent to prison, I would applaud all USA citizens who have children to try and imagine, how you and your children would cope with that it's something you would only expect to hear about in Nazi Germany.

Without wanting to sound deranged if I was the father of any of them kids I would make it my life's mission to kill him.

[StevO]

3 hours ago, MikeO said:

I didn't know that. Thing with the NHS also is that you can get referred to the best in the country wherever you live; guy who became a great mate of mine and went through the same sort of treatment I had had an unusual complication post treatment and wanted a "new" operation (high risk but to potentially improve his quality of life, he's a Scottish ex-marine so wasn't ever going to take the low risk route) that only two surgeons in the country would do, so he got referred to London. Had to pay out quite a lot in travel etc and the op was twelve hours plus but he did it, got the badge and it all worked out well, though sadly they couldn't cure his Celtic supporting issues.

It’s not perfect, but for me it’s the single greatest thing we have in the UK. From being an employer on an absolutely huge scale, to the care given in often under funded environments (I don’t want to get political about that as I don’t think it will ever be an easy job to find a best way of finding more money) by dedicated people all over the country. I think any Brit should be proud of it, and hopefully most never will need it. Mike will know better than most after what he went through, public health care changes the life for so many. I can’t see why anyone wouldn’t want similar in their own countries. 

[markjazzbassist]

1 hour ago, Palfy said:

Listening to the news earlier and the extent of the amount of Mexican children removed from their parents and still lost in the system is believed to be thousands more than was admitted to.

Any person never mind whether there the President or not who presides over that should be sent to prison, I would applaud all USA citizens who have children to try and imagine, how you and your children would cope with that it's something you would only expect to hear about in Nazi Germany.

Without wanting to sound deranged if I was the father of any of them kids I would make it my life's mission to kill him.

yeah he's a sick bastard, but those repubs are too, they are all for it. they think fucked up policies like this will deter people.  it's maniacal.

[StevO]

1 minute ago, markjazzbassist said:

yeah he's a sick bastard, but those repubs are too, they are all for it. they think fucked up policies like this will deter people.  it's maniacal.

It’s still crazy to me how a country founded on immigration and the American dream can have such an issue with people from other places.