Weirdness Abounds (or the Idrissa Gana Gueye Thread)

[duncanmckenzieismagic]

https://thisisfutbol.com/2018/11/blogs/premier-league/unsung-hero-redknapp-compares-gueye-to-reid/

 

[Matt]

15 hours ago, c1982 said:

Excellent again today. Head to head with the best in the world at that role - not much between them today.

Made a few mistakes but then recovered. Very strong performance 

[duncanmckenzieismagic]

 

[Paddock]

He was fucking excellent against Chelsea- absolutely excellent. I’m not on the wind up here either, he was as good as anyone on the pitch. 

[Shukes]

7 hours ago, duncanmckenzieismagic said:

 

It’s amazing just how many players are out of position so much!

Obviously Gana is the worst one, but seems it’s a growing trend.

[Hafnia]

7 hours ago, duncanmckenzieismagic said:

 

Buy that wan-bissaka..... perfect right back for us. Quality. 

Pity we never got moutinho all those years ago. Proven himself to be a good premier league midfielder despite his age.  I personally thought he was a risk with his legs going but he's been good. Maybe not enough to get in our current side but would have last year. 

[Matt]

I wonder how long it will take for Gomes takes to get up there. He seems to like to get stuck in. 

That said, if we've got 2 on that list, it means we're losing the ball too much

[pete0]

All them players on that list offer more than tackling. Why don't people expect more from Gana? 

[Matt]

1 minute ago, pete0 said:

All them players on that list offer more than tackling. Why don't people expect more from Gana? 

We do, and he delivers on those elevated expectations. Everyone concedes he has flaws, as does every player, but the rest of us probably see the ration as 80/20 good to bad, whereas you see 99/1 bad to good. 

[pete0]

Just now, Matt said:

We do, and he delivers on those elevated expectations. Everyone concedes he has flaws, as does every player, but the rest of us probably see the ration as 80/20 good to bad, whereas you see 99/1 bad to good. 

Not passing the ball properly is a basic skill as is positioning. School boy stuff. Compare him to Barry and he's a step down in every category bar speed, we should be aiming a lot higher. 

[rubecula]

I am no longer so sure that gana is playing out of position  he is doing a great job and he would be unlikely to get in the team in any other position.

[Matt]

43 minutes ago, pete0 said:

Not passing the ball properly is a basic skill as is positioning. School boy stuff. Compare him to Barry and he's a step down in every category bar speed, we should be aiming a lot higher. 

Except the stats show he can pass properly, but you’ll argue that they’re not the right passes. 

Barry was great, but also much more experienced. Gana is only getting better 

[Hafnia]

Gana apparently only plays well against poor oppononents......  not so.  Outshone Kante on Sunday.  Strong performance and one of the main reasons we kept a clean sheet.  Two particularly brilliant tackles to stop a shot on goal.  Intercepted loads of give and go's.

 

The desperation to prove him as poor continues and looks more and more pathetic every time. 

 

[pete0]

Just now, Matt said:

Except the stats show he can pass properly, but you’ll argue that they’re not the right passes. 

Barry was great, but also much more experienced. Gana is only getting better 

How can stats show how good a passer someone is? 

Gana is 29, if anything his speed will start to go and he'll be completely useless. Positioning etc he should already have learnt by now but he clearly hasn't. 

[Hafnia]

How the fuck can someone be poor at positioning with such high interception stats .... the farce continues. 

Shut down the thread. It's embarrassing. 

[pete0]

Just now, hafnia said:

Gana apparently only plays well against poor oppononents......  not so.  Outshone Kante on Sunday.  Strong performance and one of the main reasons we kept a clean sheet.  Two particularly brilliant tackles to stop a shot on goal.  Intercepted loads of give and go's.

 

The desperation to prove him as poor continues and looks more and more pathetic every time. 

 

That's big coming from you, Mr Projection. 

What did Gana do that stood out? You don't give a keeper MotM foot making saves any other keeper would. Gomes made exactly the same tackles yet he got the ball moving forward so if anything Gana only done half a job compared to him. 

[Hafnia]

2 minutes ago, pete0 said:

That's big coming from you, Mr Projection. 

What did Gana do that stood out? You don't give a keeper MotM foot making saves any other keeper would. Gomes made exactly the same tackles yet he got the ball moving forward so if anything Gana only done half a job compared to him. 

Explain Mr Projection..... go on.  I'll have answered the rest in a bit, but for now... just gimme an answer to that new one. 

[Sibdane]

1 hour ago, pete0 said:

Not passing the ball properly is a basic skill as is positioning. School boy stuff. Compare him to Barry and he's a step down in every category bar speed, we should be aiming a lot higher. 

Pete, I usually never jump into this or the Lukaku debate, but the passing comment is just not true at all. I don't disagree that we should be aiming higher, but that will always be the case until we have a team full of Messi's and Ronaldo's. 

[Elston Gunnn]

1 hour ago, pete0 said:

All them players on that list offer more than tackling. Why don't people expect more from Gana? 

 

1 hour ago, Matt said:

We do, and he delivers on those elevated expectations.

 

1 hour ago, pete0 said:

Not passing the ball properly is a basic skill as is positioning.

For me, this is an interesting debate, though the back-and-forth sometimes goes off the rails.  I think pete0 raises a good general criticism and gives relevant specific examples; that is, examples that so far ring true with me.  Matt and many others will perhaps provide counter-examples to support the general assertion that Gana does exhibit other positive skills.

I have both admired Gana’s “Energizer bunny” qualities — borne out by those tackling stats — while being dismayed by his misadventures as shotmaker and playmaker.  As my bias is against the 2-DCM setup, I along with virtually everyone on TT thought the Schneiderlin-Gana pairing just awful.  At first, the “Gana debate” was actually a “Gana v. Schneiderlin” debate.  I favored Gana, hoping that he’d become the single DCM, and further hoping (against hope) that he’d cease his box-to-box ramblings.

So now I’m hopeful that Gana has finally been paired with a much more promising partner in Gomes, a genuine box-to-box controller-playmaker.  I will be looking at whether Silva and Gana will cede the playmaking to Gomes and Sigurdsson.  Being so far unconvinced of Gana’s consistent delivery on (Matt’s) “elevated expectations,” I need to pay more attention to see whether early on I got it into my head that Gana was a lousy passer, playmaker, and shotmaker, but he’s significantly improved.

Maybe .... by being required to do a little less going forward, by having the attack propelled by Gomes and Sigurdsson, Gana will have a more effective role.  I don’t expect him to sit back, as I had hoped pre-Gomes, but I’m prepared to see his energized running as less chaotic, more purposeful, more “elevated” as this season progresses.  Those tackling stats are outstanding.  Do they or do they not mask ongoing weaknesses (positioning, passing, playmaking, shotmaking) otherwise?  Do Gana enthusiasts think he’s actually quite a good passer, a dependable playmaker, with a good shot, and so energetic that he can pretty consistently recover from being out of position.?

[Cornish Steve]

Watched a little of Burnley play on Saturday, and their passing is woeful this year. One of the reasons for our success this year has to be our pass completion rate and the greater purpose displayed in those passes.

For the record, you'll see from some of my posts a while back that I was not a great fan of Gueye. I stand corrected, although I believe a big factor in my opinion then was his mistaken pairing with Schneiderlin. It brought out the worst in them both. Now, I see Gueye as a major contributor to the team.

[Matt]

16 minutes ago, Elston Gunnn said:

 

 

For me, this is an interesting debate, though the back-and-forth sometimes goes off the rails.  I think pete0 raises a good general criticism and gives relevant specific examples; that is, examples that so far ring true with me.  Matt and many others will perhaps provide counter-examples to support the general assertion that Gana does exhibit other positive skills.

I have both admired Gana’s “Energizer bunny” qualities — borne out by those tackling stats — while being dismayed by his misadventures as shotmaker and playmaker.  As my bias is against the 2-DCM setup, I along with virtually everyone on TT thought the Schneiderlin-Gana pairing just awful.  At first, the “Gana debate” was actually a “Gana v. Schneiderlin” debate.  I favored Gana, hoping that he’d become the single DCM, and further hoping (against hope) that he’d cease his box-to-box ramblings.

So now I’m hopeful that Gana has finally been paired with a much more promising partner in Gomes, a genuine box-to-box controller-playmaker.  I will be looking at whether Silva and Gana will cede the playmaking to Gomes and Sigurdsson.  Being so far unconvinced of Gana’s consistent delivery on (Matt’s) “elevated expectations,” I need to pay more attention to see whether early on I got it into my head that Gana was a lousy passer, playmaker, and shotmaker, but he’s significantly improved.

Maybe .... by being required to do a little less going forward, by having the attack propelled by Gomes and Sigurdsson, Gana will have a more effective role.  I don’t expect him to sit back, as I had hoped pre-Gomes, but I’m prepared to see his energized running as less chaotic, more purposeful, more “elevated” as this season progresses.  Those tackling stats are outstanding.  Do they or do they not mask ongoing weaknesses (positioning, passing, playmaking, shotmaking) otherwise?  Do Gana enthusiasts think he’s actually quite a good passer, a dependable playmaker, with a good shot, and so energetic that he can pretty consistently recover from being out of position.?

But he's not a play maker, he's not an attacking player, he's not a striker. He's a disruptor, a ball-winner, someone whose sole job is to win back possession and give it to someone, and he does this brilliantly. He does move it up the pitch well, but he's only ok at it, average. But, again, that's not his role. 

I don't understand why people hold it against players when they're really good at what they do but expect them to do more, often things that are not supposed to be done by their specialty. However he has tried to do these things with varying results. His crossing stats are shite for the record, but I don't hold that against him, it's not something a defensive central midfielder is supposed to be good at. If they are, it's a bonus.

Like you said, hopefully with Gomes alongside him, he can stop spreading his attention across multiple tasks and concentrate on what makes him an extremely good, not quite excellent, defensive, ball-winning midfielder. 

33 minutes ago, pete0 said:

How can stats show how good a passer someone is? 

Gana is 29, if anything his speed will start to go and he'll be completely useless. Positioning etc he should already have learnt by now but he clearly hasn't. 

Completed passes show that he chose someone to pass to, and that the pass was completed. The number of passes and pass completion rate show that he can pass. That's just fact. Just like you cannot intercept the ball or tackle someone if your positioning is shit unless you're telekinetic. Again I assume you'll argue they're not "the right passes" and  this comes down to personal expectations. I expect him, in his role of breaking up play, to make the tackle and get it to one of our players. Direction is irrelevant; he wins the ball and/or releases the ball to one of our players. Statistically, there is currently none better at tackling, and I imagine few have a higher pass completion rate. 

[Hafnia]

43 minutes ago, pete0 said:

That's big coming from you, Mr Projection. 

What did Gana do that stood out? You don't give a keeper MotM foot making saves any other keeper would. Gomes made exactly the same tackles yet he got the ball moving forward so if anything Gana only done half a job compared to him. 

Still no answer on the Mr Projection bit? I'll just file it with the rest of the unsubstantiated shite you spout. 

Gana stood out on many occasions - a perfectly timed sliding tackle on hazard when he switched feet and strode through on goal.

He read and timed a perfect interception on a give and go between willian and hazard which would have been another goalscoring chance. 

I gave pickford man of the match for making saves that he would be expected to make because he did and did so many times... just like gana did with his tackles. Not so difficult to understand...  or  is it? 

 

[Hafnia]

36 minutes ago, Elston Gunnn said:

 

 

For me, this is an interesting debate, though the back-and-forth sometimes goes off the rails.  I think pete0 raises a good general criticism and gives relevant specific examples; that is, examples that so far ring true with me.  Matt and many others will perhaps provide counter-examples to support the general assertion that Gana does exhibit other positive skills.

I have both admired Gana’s “Energizer bunny” qualities — borne out by those tackling stats — while being dismayed by his misadventures as shotmaker and playmaker.  As my bias is against the 2-DCM setup, I along with virtually everyone on TT thought the Schneiderlin-Gana pairing just awful.  At first, the “Gana debate” was actually a “Gana v. Schneiderlin” debate.  I favored Gana, hoping that he’d become the single DCM, and further hoping (against hope) that he’d cease his box-to-box ramblings.

So now I’m hopeful that Gana has finally been paired with a much more promising partner in Gomes, a genuine box-to-box controller-playmaker.  I will be looking at whether Silva and Gana will cede the playmaking to Gomes and Sigurdsson.  Being so far unconvinced of Gana’s consistent delivery on (Matt’s) “elevated expectations,” I need to pay more attention to see whether early on I got it into my head that Gana was a lousy passer, playmaker, and shotmaker, but he’s significantly improved.

Maybe .... by being required to do a little less going forward, by having the attack propelled by Gomes and Sigurdsson, Gana will have a more effective role.  I don’t expect him to sit back, as I had hoped pre-Gomes, but I’m prepared to see his energized running as less chaotic, more purposeful, more “elevated” as this season progresses.  Those tackling stats are outstanding.  Do they or do they not mask ongoing weaknesses (positioning, passing, playmaking, shotmaking) otherwise?  Do Gana enthusiasts think he’s actually quite a good passer, a dependable playmaker, with a good shot, and so energetic that he can pretty consistently recover from being out of position.?

Are you gonna start holding Gylfi responsible for shielding the back 4 and ignoring his chance creation ability on the basis that he isn'tt the most impressive of tacklers?

Of course you aren't.

First things first... you can't do anything without the ball and are at risk of conceding when that is the case. So in its most simplest football is about getting the ball and keeping it.

DOES GANA HAVE STATS THAT INDICATE THAT HE IS A PROBLEM IN THIS REGARD?.... the answer is no.   He wins the ball more than any player in the league  - rather than risk losing it he gives it nice and simple to players who can do something creative with it .... like Gomes - the central axis or the 3 attacking mids.

Funny.  Still talking about Gana in a game where our biggest risk was the right hand side where Coleman and Walcott gave the ball away and couldn't get it back.  Instead we are talking about a player who outshone Kante

[Matt]

Haf, why are you shouting? Elston has very concisely and reasonably presented his post and you respond with sarcasm and caps? 

[Hafnia]

1 minute ago, Matt said:

Haf, why are you shouting? Elston has very concisely and reasonably presented his post and you respond with sarcasm and caps? 

Not shouting Pete... more highlighting.  My intended tone with Elstone is spot on as he is a good balanced poster. Don't need you as a shit stirrer

Run along now. I'm debating with grown ups. Oh yeah.... answer the Mr Projection shout whilst you're at it. 

[pete0]

22 minutes ago, Matt said:

Completed passes show that he chose someone to pass to, and that the pass was completed. The number of passes and pass completion rate show that he can pass. That's just fact. Just like you cannot intercept the ball or tackle someone if your positioning is shit unless you're telekinetic. Again I assume you'll argue they're not "the right passes" and  this comes down to personal expectations. I expect him, in his role of breaking up play, to make the tackle and get it to one of our players. Direction is irrelevant; he wins the ball and/or releases the ball to one of our players. Statistically, there is currently none better at tackling, and I imagine few have a higher pass completion rate. 

Doesn't show whether he's played someone into danger. Whether he choose the best option. Doesn't show the quality of delivery, the weight, what foot he's played it to or space he's put it in. How long he's spent on the ball, whether he'd be better off carrying it forward before making pass. How that pass effected the tempo of the game. 

There's a reason moneyball doesn't work on football. Far too many factors to consider. 

1 hour ago, hafnia said:

Explain Mr Projection..... go on.  I'll have answered the rest in a bit, but for now... just gimme an answer to that new one. 

Google projection. I'm not your teacher and god bless whoever was. 

17 minutes ago, hafnia said:

Still no answer on the Mr Projection bit? I'll just file it with the rest of the unsubstantiated shite you spout. 

Gana stood out on many occasions - a perfectly timed sliding tackle on hazard when he switched feet and strode through on goal.

He read and timed a perfect interception on a give and go between willian and hazard which would have been another goalscoring chance. 

I gave pickford man of the match for making saves that he would be expected to make because he did and did so many times... just like gana did with his tackles. Not so difficult to understand...  or  is it? 

 

Unsubstantiated? Sure more false news from haf, carry on. You're worse than a tory with your posts. All with an agenda to try and prove you right. No actual debate just a crass loudmouth. 

[Hafnia]

4 minutes ago, Matt said:

Haf, why are you shouting? Elston has very concisely and reasonably presented his post and you respond with sarcasm and caps? 

Wasn't intended as shouting or sarcasm to be honest. Maybe the fact I'm covered in chicken pox and Mr psueodpolitical bullshit is spouting his shite again is a factor. Soz Elstone

[Matt]

2 minutes ago, hafnia said:

Not shouting Pete... more highlighting.  My intended tone with Elstone is spot on as he is a good balanced poster. Don't need you as a shit stirrer

Run along now. I'm debating with grown ups. Oh yeah.... answer the Mr Projection shout whilst you're at it. 

I'm not Pete.

[Matt]

1 minute ago, hafnia said:

Wasn't intended as shouting or sarcasm to be honest. Maybe the fact I'm covered in chicken pox and Mr psueodpolitical bullshit is spouting his shite again is a factor. Soz Elstone

Fair enough. 

[Hafnia]

1 minute ago, Matt said:

I'm not Pete.

No youre not.    I need to lie down.