Atalanta (Europa Group Home) Thursday November 23rd

[Elston Gunnn]

3 hours ago, nogs said:

We shouldn't be playing any of our first team squad in this - or more specifically, anyone with a chance of making the squad v Southampton. Everyone knows the Thursday night hangover effect, we've suffered it as bad as anyone. It would be madness to ask anyone to play these two games, even from the bench. The league is all that matters now. 

 

3 hours ago, Bill said:

So are you hoping for a weak team ?, Thats going to give everybody a massive boost  if we get thrashed 0-5 isn't it.

 

I can’t say exactly what nogs sees as our “first team,” nor can I say exactly what Bill sees as a “weak team.”  I think the inclusion as starters of Mirallas, Sandro, Besic, Vlasic, Rooney, DCL does not constitute a weak team.  Or at least demonstrably any weaker than a team that includes, for example, Lookman and Lennon as wings instead of Mirallas and Vlasic.  And although I expect Sigurdsson will come good over time, he hasn’t played particularly well so far, and I’d like to see Klaassen get an opportunity, minimally for the first half.  Similarly, Besic should play on Thursday, either as DM or as LB, where I adamantly insist that Baines should not be pushed to play 3 matches in 8 days, given the importance of the last of those 3.

Although, yes, it’s possible a team that includes the 6 players I’ve listed could get thrashed 0-5, it’s no more likely than a somewhat stronger team getting similarly smashed.

It strikes me there’s a likely advantage going forward to giving the players I’ve listed some pitch time against Atalanta, and a likely advantage to resting 6-8 regulars to save them for Southampton.

[Bill]

I think he said play all the players who won't be playing against Southampton,  to me I think that means not the strongest side.  We need to play the best team possible and try to get the winning mentality back, or at least a decent performance, no good playing a weaker side and getting thrashed, Confidence would be shot going into the Southampton game.

[Romey 1878]

1 hour ago, MikeO said:

Difference being that was a dead game because we were already qualified, this is dead because we're out.

Dead is dead. I’ll usually go to any home game, no matter what, but we play such shite football I can’t be arsed. 

Didn't they lower the prices for the Borisov game?

[nogs]

7 hours ago, Elston Gunnn said:

 

 

I can’t say exactly what nogs sees as our “first team,” nor can I say exactly what Bill sees as a “weak team.”  I think the inclusion as starters of Mirallas, Sandro, Besic, Vlasic, Rooney, DCL does not constitute a weak team.  Or at least demonstrably any weaker than a team that includes, for example, Lookman and Lennon as wings instead of Mirallas and Vlasic.  And although I expect Sigurdsson will come good over time, he hasn’t played particularly well so far, and I’d like to see Klaassen get an opportunity, minimally for the first half.  Similarly, Besic should play on Thursday, either as DM or as LB, where I adamantly insist that Baines should not be pushed to play 3 matches in 8 days, given the importance of the last of those 3.

Although, yes, it’s possible a team that includes the 6 players I’ve listed could get thrashed 0-5, it’s no more likely than a somewhat stronger team getting similarly smashed.

It strikes me there’s a likely advantage going forward to giving the players I’ve listed some pitch time against Atalanta, and a likely advantage to resting 6-8 regulars to save them for Southampton.

So if you play DCL and Rooney tonight, who plays up front on Sunday? 

[nogs]

7 hours ago, Bill said:

I think he said play all the players who won't be playing against Southampton,  to me I think that means not the strongest side.  We need to play the best team possible and try to get the winning mentality back, or at least a decent performance, no good playing a weaker side and getting thrashed, Confidence would be shot going into the Southampton game.

Confidence for who, Bill? Are you honestly saying we should play the same team tonight and Sunday? Look at the record of teams playing Thursday and Sunday in the Europa. We can't do anything that risks Prem points at the moment. 

If we play the 'second string', these are players who haven't been in the first team by and large because they've been playing shite. Atlanta are a good side, there is every chance they best our fringe team anyway. So who gains confidence? All it takes is an injury up front or at CB and we're in trouble on Sunday. 

[Romey 1878]

No Jags or Holgate tonight.

[nogs]

44 minutes ago, Romey 1878 said:

No Jags or Holgate tonight.

Injured? Well confirms my point, if we play Keane and Williams tonight, then neither Jags and Holgate are fit for Sunday, we're playing two tired and out of form CBs. It's a recipe for disaster. Give Feeney and Foulds a go. 

[Romey 1878]

Just now, nogs said:

Injured? Well confirms my point, if we play Keane and Williams tonight, then neither Jags and Holgate are fit for Sunday, we're playing two tired and out of form CBs. It's a recipe for disaster. Give Feeney and Foulds a go. 

I think so.

Doubt Foulds is even in the thinking, but I could see Feeney playing seeing as he's been on the bench and Unsworth really rates him.

[Matt]

15 hours ago, nogs said:

What does it matter? What would you rather do, go flat out and turn up at Southampton knackered so we get turned over?? 

We played kids against Borisov and Krasnodar when we'd qualified, I don't see why it's different now we're out? 

Because we need wins for confidence, and for the fans who will pay to turn up to watch a nothing game so that come Southampton they’re fired up. Confidence breeds confidence and we should be doing everything we can to start that ball rolling

[Elston Gunnn]

6 hours ago, nogs said:

So if you play DCL and Rooney tonight, who plays up front on Sunday? 

Rooney not up front tonight for me - Sandro and DCL.  Play Sandro full 90, sub out DCL in second half.  Ditto for Rooney, as I assume both DCL and Rooney must be available for major minutes on Sunday.

Niasse’s suspension for EPL, on top of ineligibility for EL, causes major headache.  We simply don’t have enough strikers, much less effective strikers.  All the more reason to play both Mirallas and Vlasic, perhaps using Mirallas at some point as second striker tonight.  Does playing Mirallas and Vlasic signal that Unsworth has selected a weak team tonight?  Not for me, as I think Mirallas and Vlasic are more likely to score a goal than Lennon or Lookman.  Admittedly Lennon - of whom I am a fan - is much better at tracking back.  But we need goals, speaking of confidence......

 

1 hour ago, Matt said:

Because we need wins for confidence, and for the fans who will pay to turn up to watch a nothing game so that come Southampton they’re fired up. Confidence breeds confidence and we should be doing everything we can to start that ball rolling

Your point about confidence is persuasive.  I’m just unsure which exact combo of players is the confidence-inspiring combo.  Unsworth has said he’ll put a strong team out there tonight, but because of injuries, Niasses’s ineligibility, and exhaustion factor for players such as Baines and Lennon, it seems to me that Unsworth has a particularly delicate juggling act to perform: how both to select a strong team tonight and prioritize Southampton.

 

[Matt]

14 minutes ago, Elston Gunnn said:

Rooney not up front tonight for me - Sandro and DCL.  Play Sandro full 90, sub out DCL in second half.  Ditto for Rooney, as I assume both DCL and Rooney must be available for major minutes on Sunday.

Niasse’s suspension for EPL, on top of ineligibility for EL, causes major headache.  We simply don’t have enough strikers, much less effective strikers.  All the more reason to play both Mirallas and Vlasic, perhaps using Mirallas at some point as second striker tonight.  Does playing Mirallas and Vlasic signal that Unsworth has selected a weak team tonight?  Not for me, as I think Mirallas and Vlasic are more likely to score a goal than Lennon or Lookman.  Admittedly Lennon - of whom I am a fan - is much better at tracking back.  But we need goals, speaking of confidence......

 

Your point about confidence is persuasive.  I’m just unsure which exact combo of players is the confidence-inspiring combo.  Unsworth has said he’ll put a strong team out there tonight, but because of injuries, Niasses’s ineligibility, and exhaustion factor for players such as Baines and Lennon, it seems to me that Unsworth has a particularly delicate juggling act to perform: how both to select a strong team tonight and prioritize Southampton.

 

The win helps the team not just the individuals who hopefully earn the win, so hopefully it shouldn’t matter too much who plays. I just don’t want us to throw any old players out there; if it’s not the starting 11, it has to be as close as possible to it

[Peter H]

Please don't put out a B-team or youngsters! The regular team needs to find confidence and work on their tactics. They need to play all the games they can and a win against Atalanta could be just what they need to turn this disaster around.

 

[nogs]

2 hours ago, Matt said:

Because we need wins for confidence, and for the fans who will pay to turn up to watch a nothing game so that come Southampton they’re fired up. Confidence breeds confidence and we should be doing everything we can to start that ball rolling

 

1 hour ago, Peter H said:

Please don't put out a B-team or youngsters! The regular team needs to find confidence and work on their tactics. They need to play all the games they can and a win against Atalanta could be just what they need to turn this disaster around.

 

Look, we all see it differently, but I completely disagree. Psychologically, the players know this is a nothing game, I'd say it is very unlikely players can get themselves up to put in the sort of shift that will inspire the confidence you're looking for. Plus, Atalanta  have something to play for, they will be way more up for it than us. 

You can talk about winning every game, and getting on a roll all you want. But the facts are, tonight doesn't matter, Sunday does. What happens if you put out a strong side tonight, they get beat anyway, and then a tired dispirited side get beat on Sunday? I agree, we need to do everything we can to turn our season round... by getting on a roll in the Premier League. And we do that by resting players and giving them every chance to go out and beat Southampton on Sunday. 

[nogs]

1 hour ago, Elston Gunnn said:

Rooney not up front tonight for me - Sandro and DCL.  Play Sandro full 90, sub out DCL in second half.  Ditto for Rooney, as I assume both DCL and Rooney must be available for major minutes on Sunday.

 

Or, we could play Sambou, Henen, Byrne or Broadhead tonight. 

[Peter H]

16 minutes ago, nogs said:

 

Look, we all see it differently, but I completely disagree. Psychologically, the players know this is a nothing game, I'd say it is very unlikely players can get themselves up to put in the sort of shift that will inspire the confidence you're looking for. Plus, Atalanta  have something to play for, they will be way more up for it than us. 

You can talk about winning every game, and getting on a roll all you want. But the facts are, tonight doesn't matter, Sunday does. What happens if you put out a strong side tonight, they get beat anyway, and then a tired dispirited side get beat on Sunday? I agree, we need to do everything we can to turn our season round... by getting on a roll in the Premier League. And we do that by resting players and giving them every chance to go out and beat Southampton on Sunday. 

Honestly, if the players can't play 2 games in 4 days then how do they expect to manage to play a world cup?

[nogs]

9 minutes ago, Peter H said:

Honestly, if the players can't play 2 games in 4 days then how do they expect to manage to play a world cup?

Yep, that's the argument, but look at the record of PL teams who play Europa on  a Thursday then league on Sunday. Why take the risk when we're out already? 

[Elston Gunnn]

46 minutes ago, nogs said:

Or, we could play Sambou, Henen, Byrne or Broadhead tonight. 

I don’t think they are EL-eligible.  Unfortunately, players such as Coleman, Barkley, Holgate, and McCarthy are eligible but injured.  Niasse is healthy but ineligible.

[Paddock]

There was a mass brawl in town last night- German Atalanta fans kicking off- apparently they have a political following from all over Europe- hence the flood of requests for tickets from all over.

[Elston Gunnn]

2 hours ago, Matt said:

The win helps the team not just the individuals who hopefully earn the win, so hopefully it shouldn’t matter too much who plays. I just don’t want us to throw any old players out there; if it’s not the starting 11, it has to be as close as possible to it

I suppose we could argue about which players are the “any old” ones.  Clearly, starting all of Klaassen, Besic, Sandro, and Martina would be an “any old segment.”  But if we eliminate Martina as a starter, I’d welcome the other 3.  Further,  I wouldn’t concede that Mirallas and Vlasic are inferior to Lennon and Lookman as wingers.  I’m more confident that Kenny can give 90 energetic minutes both tonight and Sunday than I am about Baines.  Our lack of LB backup is a major problem when fixtures are crowded.

[Romey 1878]

13 minutes ago, Elston Gunnn said:

I don’t think they are EL-eligible.  Unfortunately, players such as Coleman, Barkley, Holgate, and McCarthy are eligible but injured.  Niasse is healthy but ineligible.

They are I think. They can play for the same reason Beni was eligible despite not being registered in the main squad. 

[Newty82]

16 minutes ago, Paddock said:

There was a mass brawl in town last night- German Atalanta fans kicking off- apparently they have a political following from all over Europe- hence the flood of requests for tickets from all over.

Unleash the Haf!!!

[Elston Gunnn]

7 minutes ago, Romey 1878 said:

They are I think. They can play for the same reason Beni was eligible despite not being registered in the main squad. 

Didn’t know that.  So if Baningime is eligible, play him.  Unless he’s our best DM, in which case save him for Sunday (.......)  Play him both.  Plug Besic in at LB, admittedly dicey.

[Matt]

3 hours ago, nogs said:

 

Look, we all see it differently, but I completely disagree. Psychologically, the players know this is a nothing game, I'd say it is very unlikely players can get themselves up to put in the sort of shift that will inspire the confidence you're looking for. Plus, Atalanta  have something to play for, they will be way more up for it than us. 

You can talk about winning every game, and getting on a roll all you want. But the facts are, tonight doesn't matter, Sunday does. What happens if you put out a strong side tonight, they get beat anyway, and then a tired dispirited side get beat on Sunday? I agree, we need to do everything we can to turn our season round... by getting on a roll in the Premier League. And we do that by resting players and giving them every chance to go out and beat Southampton on Sunday. 

If the players can’t get themselves up to put on a show for fans paying to watch them in a nothing (except a confidence-building, revenge and pride) game, then none of them deserve to wear the shirt or play either game  

I understand the argument to throw the game and “rest” for Southampton, I just don’t agree with it. So we’ll just see what happens I guess

[MikeO]

36 minutes ago, TallPaul1878 said:

Those would be Eintracht Frankfurt fans. Atalanta Ultras are hard-line anarcho-communists who idolise people like Che Guevara. They have a pact with Frankfurt Ultras who have the same political leanings. 

Italian and German football hooligans identify with sides of the political spectrum. Dortmund and Lazio are known for their right wing Ultras. It got so bad at Dortmund that the club employed a liaison officer at home games to try and deal with the Ultras, he got his head kicked in.

Celtic and Rangers draw their battle lines over religion, the Italians and Germans draw their battle lines over politics. It's just worrisome that they are now sending hooligans from other clubs to get involved in these skirmishes.

What are they going to do? Ban the Frankfurt fans from Atalanta games???

So if Frankfurt got to play Atalanta it'd be a big love-in; like to see that.

Opposing fans hugging each other-sweet.

[nogs]

57 minutes ago, TallPaul1878 said:

Those would be Eintracht Frankfurt fans. Atalanta Ultras are hard-line anarcho-communists who idolise people like Che Guevara. They have a pact with Frankfurt Ultras who have the same political leanings. 

Italian and German football hooligans identify with sides of the political spectrum. Dortmund and Lazio are known for their right wing Ultras. It got so bad at Dortmund that the club employed a liaison officer at home games to try and deal with the Ultras, he got his head kicked in.

Celtic and Rangers draw their battle lines over religion, the Italians and Germans draw their battle lines over politics. It's just worrisome that they are now sending hooligans from other clubs to get involved in these skirmishes.

What are they going to do? Ban the Frankfurt fans from Atalanta games???

I didn't know that about Atalanta, a bit like St Pauli from Hamburg then? I was planning on going this match before we got knocked out, wish I had anyway now! 

[Cornish Steve]

1 hour ago, TallPaul1878 said:

Those would be Eintracht Frankfurt fans. Atalanta Ultras are hard-line anarcho-communists who idolise people like Che Guevara. They have a pact with Frankfurt Ultras who have the same political leanings. 

Italian and German football hooligans identify with sides of the political spectrum. Dortmund and Lazio are known for their right wing Ultras. It got so bad at Dortmund that the club employed a liaison officer at home games to try and deal with the Ultras, he got his head kicked in.

Celtic and Rangers draw their battle lines over religion, the Italians and Germans draw their battle lines over politics. It's just worrisome that they are now sending hooligans from other clubs to get involved in these skirmishes.

What are they going to do? Ban the Frankfurt fans from Atalanta games???

Then, sadly, we're probably going to hear a number of racist chants,

[nogs]

1 minute ago, Cornish Steve said:

Then, sadly, we're probably going to hear a number of racist chants,

From a bunch of lefties? 

[London Blue]

14 minutes ago, nogs said:

From a bunch of lefties? 

Yep, my Italian friends say that the ultra left and right are both violent, racist thugs.

[nogs]

4 minutes ago, London Blue said:

Yep, my Italian friends say that the ultra left and right are both violent, racist thugs.

Hmm seems odd. I know there's still plenty of violence on the lefty ultra scene, but I've been to St Pauli and it's the sort of place you'd get your head kicked in for racist chanting. 

Anyway, European ultra culture is pretty bizarre at times. I mean who were these Germans fighting?? 

[Newty82]

I thought far left was anti racist? Far right racist? Surely you can't be a traditional far left but be racist? A violent thug, yes, but not racist???