If Moyes goes?

[Dalziel Kane]

What he said. In that Moyes is in no way an 'excellent manager'. Yes he's done well for us, but simply put, hasn't won anything in 11 years of management here, and don't anyone declare he hasn't had the opportunities. We've got ourselves a manager who folds under pressure whenever there's a realistic chance of winning something or getting within touching distance of a trophy, and if he stays on, it's just going to continue for us..

 

I also want a change, a new face, however you want to see it as. I believe, or I know, that Moyes can simply take us no further or improve on what he has already achieved (by way of the league). And cup success, which is what most will be looking for, is simply never going to happen so long as the scot remains in charge.

 

I wish him well when he goes, and do hope it will be this calendar year, but it's time now for a change and another figure to have a chance.

[Avinalaff]

Isn't it the players who bottle it?

 

If you want experienced players, who know how to handle the pressure, you have to pay a premium.

 

We've been in the top 4, Europe, and a Wembley final (unfortunately against Chelski) under Moyes. It's for the players to take the next step, or the board to provide the funding to get better players. It's a little ironic to lay the blame with Moyes. Nobody could have foreseen 3 goals in 5 minutes against Wigan after all.

[pete0]

Time for the numbers game .

Moyes' record against Mancini, Redknapp, and Sunderland will be missed, however looking at how much Moyes as struggled against 7 of 19 teams currently in the league it becomes obvious we need a change.

With just 3 wins a piece, all in games at Goodison, Moyes has a 14% win rate against the former Sky 4. A mere 23% v Villa is pitiful as is 33% against Stoke and Norwich. With these strike rates most top half clubs would change manager, I find it strange so many people are still hanging on to Moyes and not looking forward to change.

http://www.barriesview.com/2013/03/david-moyes-statistics-at-everton

Worth noting Curbishley's record v Moyes, considering a few on here were laughing at his credentials.

[Hafnia]

I did a test a few years back - using performance data going back years looking at employees performance aligned to their manager. Clear conclusion is that employees are very much sensitive to the environment within which their manager has them work. Pretty much - engaged managers = engaged employees. Disengaged = disengaged.

 

Moyes has disengaged the club for a while, and results correlate. After he was challenged (talksport post Wigan) did we see a different Davie, he learned how to get angry and passionate again.

[pete0]

Isn't it the players who bottle it?

 

If you want experienced players, who know how to handle the pressure, you have to pay a premium.

 

We've been in the top 4, Europe, and a Wembley final (unfortunately against Chelski) under Moyes. It's for the players to take the next step, or the board to provide the funding to get better players. It's a little ironic to lay the blame with Moyes. Nobody could have foreseen 3 goals in 5 minutes against Wigan after all.

Most expected the worst when Neville was announced in midfield. No one expected how bad our worst is though.

Fellaini up top against and playing down the flanks crossing game v Stoke/WBA was poor tactics, then Moyes was found to be inept as he refused to change our style of play in face of the obvious. It's his belligerence that ultimately holds him back. If he stuck his hand up, accepted responsibly, learned and adapted from the experience he'd be a great manager. But nope, he perseveres because he banged one broken tele and it worked again.

[Bailey]

Some of the stick is well warranted, but most of it is not.

 

Simple question, If Moyes is tactically inept, never gives youth a chance, only plays his favourites, never knows when to make a sub, is too negative, doesn't know how to utilise flair players and is a bottler. Then how the fuck has he managed to turn Everton around and how the fuck has he won manager of the year 3 times?

 

Do you honestly think that missing the likes of Gibson, Mirallas and Coleman for large chunks of the season has had no effect on the team?

 

Sides are on to the Piennar / Baines combo and are overloading on the left to nullify it,. If they had to contend with Mirallas and Coleman on the right then they wouldn't have been able to do that so easily

I would agree that some of the stick isnt as well, there is a fair amount that is.

 

Moyes isnt tactically inept as such. he has a solid system that he uses week in week out pretty much from the 1st to the last minute. We know who will start 9/10 and we know who and when the subs will be. Moyes is in no way a tactician and he is pretty much always reactive instead of proactive. Moyes gets by on his system and it works well and the level of performance is generally effected by how well he motivates the players.

 

I would definitely argue that he would rather play a regular who is out of form, shot and out of position over a youngster for a game here and there. There are countless times in each and every season to say otherwise.

 

C'mon surely your not disagreeing that he doesnt use his subs bench very well. Sometimes the likes of Osman and Pienaar have practically been walking and stayed on for the 90mins with fresh legs on the bench! Not to mention the constant use of Naismith!

 

I also would disagree with them being bottlers either tbh... All the big games I can remember we have played below par. They would certainly outweigh the times we have played well in such circumstances.

 

Im not saying it wont have had any effect whatsoever, but it doesnt make the difference between playing really well and playing really poorly. Coleman didnt start the season at RB, and Mirallas was only brought in on the drip when we were playing our best so that's a redundant argument anyway.

 

What you see is what you get with Moyes and there is nothing wrong with that if you only ever have mid table ambitions. We have our best squad under Moyes yet IMO we are playing worse football than we were 3-5 years ago on the whole. Last week just showed what he and the players can do. They werent brilliant, but they were very solid and as organised as they have been all season. I would take them gritty determined performances all season over the flashiness ones we had at the start.

[Avinalaff]

Most expected the worst when Neville was announced in midfield. No one expected how bad our worst is though.

Fellaini up top against and playing down the flanks crossing game v Stoke/WBA was poor tactics, then Moyes was found to be inept as he refused to change our style of play in face of the obvious. It's his belligerence that ultimately holds him back. If he stuck his hand up, accepted responsibly, learned and adapted from the experience he'd be a great manager. But nope, he perseveres because he banged one broken tele and it worked again.

 

Pete, we can't expect Moyes to be the full package.

 

He is a relatively young manager, who is learning, and in time will no doubt be a very capable tactician. It's fine asking for a new manager to take on the team that Moyes has built by buying and selling wisely, yet it's another should any manager have had to take over the team that Moyes inherited.

 

Putting the final piece in Moyes' jigsaw is something I'd like to see done by Moyes, and let's not forget that there is a team of coaches that manage Everton, not one man, and tactics are discussed across that team.

 

My car can beat nearly all cars in a race (hypothetically) but it can't beat the latest Ferrari no matter who I put behind the wheel, as the Ferrari is too powerful, and that is the problem Moyes has. Each time we get close, the other teams buy a new engine.

 

The other teams in the Prem are damn fine teams too, and we have no divine right to expect to beat them.

[pete0]

Pete, we can't expect Moyes to be the full package.

 

He is a relatively young manager, who is learning, and in time will no doubt be a very capable tactician. It's fine asking for a new manager to take on the team that Moyes has built by buying and selling wisely, yet it's another should any manager have had to take over the team that Moyes inherited.

 

Putting the final piece in Moyes' jigsaw is something I'd like to see done by Moyes, and let's not forget that there is a team of coaches that manage Everton, not one man, and tactics are discussed across that team.

 

My car can beat nearly all cars in a race (hypothetically) but it can't beat the latest Ferrari no matter who I put behind the wheel, as the Ferrari is too powerful, and that is the problem Moyes has. Each time we get close, the other teams buy a new engine.

 

The other teams in the Prem are damn fine teams too, and we have no divine right to expect to beat them.

I don't think we can use this excuse anymore. He's been at the club for over a decade and is still making the same mistakes. Ferguson had turned United into the most dominate team in England in less time.

The team he inherited really wasn't that bad. Smith had lost the plot, Steve Watson was playing upfront. A new manager was all it would take for us to get in the top half.

Moyes has final say not that he listens first, we've not changed our style since before Round come in. If anyone went against him they'd be gone. He styles himself as Fergie, but sadly lack the adaptability and winning mentality.

Money isn't the only problem, many teams out spend us. The only way money and success are correlated in football is when you look at the wages and if you do that Moyes is on course for what you'd expect, the man gets hailed even though using financial terms he's average. Paying players what we do, any bog standard manager would roughly get the same end result see Sam Aladyce era at Bolton. Like Sam, Moyes lacks the extra skill set to take him and the club to the next level.

He has players more than capable of helping out and easing the burdon on the core players. Look to United, how many youngsters get a chance. The main example I use on here is Ferguson selling Kanchelskis to allow Beckham to progress, Becks at the time was half the play as Andrei, but in the long run it was for the best. Moyes stifles our youth and in some cases breaks them (Gosling) whilst at the same time burning out and persisting with our stars.

40+ games without a win. I'd expect a win even with Walter Smith back in charge.

[c1982]

Silly season has come early...

 

http://www.express.co.uk/sport/football/386564/Sunderland-eye-David-Moyes?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+daily-express-sport-news+%28Daily+Express+%3A%3A+Sport+Feed%29

[Hafnia]

Silly season has come early...

 

http://www.express.co.uk/sport/football/386564/Sunderland-eye-David-Moyes?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+daily-express-sport-news+%28Daily+Express+%3A%3A+Sport+Feed%29

 

O'Neill = one of the most overrated managers in premier league history IMO.

[c1982]

 

O'Neill = one of the most overrated managers in premier league history IMO.

O'Neill was excellent at Leicester and did a 'good' job at Celtic (success in Scotland must be taken with a pinch of salt - unless you do what SAF did!) - by this time he's considered a top manager and to be honest I was gutted when villa got him and to be fair he did well at villa if you look at results etc. It's when you look closer at his time at villa when it shows up what a mess he made spunking millions on average players and offering wages for players like Habid Beye (£60k a week?!) At Sunderland he just looks poor - he's got some good players but he's not got them playing so I do expect him to be out of the door come the summer but no way is Moyes even considering that job!

[Hafnia]

I think he's a motivator not a manager. His financials, player selection and tactics aren't great.

[SimonButtle]

Silly season has come early...

 

http://www.express.co.uk/sport/football/386564/Sunderland-eye-David-Moyes?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed:+daily-express-sport-news+(Daily+Express+::+Sport+Feed)

I can see why this would appeal. A proper transfer budget, decent stadium, but defo silly season, it would be a mammoth project rebuilding Sunderland and they are hardly going in the direction Moyes claims he wants to go in. Edited March 24, 2013 by Simon

[Hafnia]

I think Sunderland is a club with the financial backing that could allow moyes the opportunity to prove he can work with money, handle egos, keep a full squad happy etc. they would probably be tolerant to a point in his negativity provided they got top 6. For the time being at least. I can see why yeah.

[Dalziel Kane]

I can't abide the Daily Express. Awful piece of shit publication, but nonetheless did have a look, but really can't see Moyes ever going to Sunderland. Their supporters would probably have him though. They don't get to see the weekly business of this club and won't appreciate the frustrations that Moyes can bring. Most likely will simply recognize him as someone that has done well for the most part and missing the bigger picture. As with Manchester United and Chelsea, now there's another club you can cross off the list. Talk of Moyes trying his hand in the bundesliga for example, look more plausible here. Moyes says often, and talks about, ambition, but is Wearside really the place to go for that. Thing is, I could maybe see Moyes at Newcastle United, as they're simply a bigger, successful and more recognized club side, but at Sunderland ? I can't ever see this occuring.

 

For the last time,and it has to be said again, O Neill simply isn't as bad as some insist. I've thought about him as a replacement for Moyes on more than one occasion, and his endeavors at Leicester City years back, in taking the East Midlanders to regular cup finals and other achievements of merit, cannot be easily dismissed. Ok he's hasn't been able to really duplicate what he achieved at Filbert Street at the time with subsequent teams thereafter, but I simply recognize him as a decent manager that has succeeded, and won things, and has a long list of accolades and plaudits to his name. Fair enough, for arguments sake, if he was ever Everton manager and after a season or two, had done little or been a big disappointment, any berating may be more justified, but until then, I'm just content to give the man some credit. It appears for sure he's not everyone's choice but it's something I would have liked to have seen, even if out of curiosity

[Guest]

I can, but I put it down to having better players rather than Moyes changing his tactics. Why? because we stayed 451, he continued to play people out of position when he didnt need to and his substitutions have been baffling. The one change Ive really noticed is our inability to keep a clean sheet.

 

I'll try to sum this up again...

 

Im very grateful for all he has done, like you say turning us from relegation favourites to being stable. To say he is an excellent manager is nonsense, hes won nothing. Hes a decent manager, a very good man manager/motivator and got an eye for a bargain. He has done wonders to get us where we are. But his inability to perform under pressure is infuriating, his ignorance of the concequences of his actions and refusal to own up to mistakes gets on my nerves. I wont be sad if he stays, but I wont be sad if he goes either. Both he and Everton need a change. Ideal scenario would be that he continues to grow with Everton but I just dont see that happening.

Couldnt have put it any better

[Hafnia]

To put this simply Everton seen Dixie sold and had Lawton. We had Ball and sold him and although never replaced moved on, we have had far greater winning custodians of the club than moyes.

 

I seriously can not understand those who choose to favour mediocrity and allow shite off a long term manager rather than challenge the very shite attitude that has never been nor should be accepted by our club.

 

Everton was and is Everton a long time before we needed moyes, he's not earned the the right to redefine this clubs expectations or motto. He's made his bed, he can lie in it.

[Avinalaff]

"One day I'll rule the world, but until then, I'll slag Moyes from my evil lair "

[duncanmckenzieismagic]

"One day I'll rule the world, but until then, I'll slag Moyes from my evil lair "

 

 

Ha ha brilliant!

[Hafnia]

"One day I'll rule the world, but until then, I'll slag Moyes from my evil lair "

Beast of a printer that Av, how much do refills cost?

[Avinalaff]

Beast of a printer that Av, how much do refills cost?

 

Talking of that, just took delivery of some ink for my SX425W printer from Unielectronics. 10 ( 4 black and 2xothers) for £7.49 delivered if anybody needs some.

http://www.unielectronics.com/shop/epson_b01103862.htm

 

Back on topic - Stoooooooooooooop mooooooooooooaning Haaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaf !!!

[Hafnia]

Talking of that, just took delivery of some ink for my SX425W printer from Unielectronics. 10 ( 4 black and 2xothers) for £7.49 delivered if anybody needs some.

http://www.unielectronics.com/shop/epson_b01103862.htm

 

Back on topic - Stoooooooooooooop mooooooooooooaning Haaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaf !!!

I can't - plus it's monday!!! Then again I finish on Wednesday...

[duncanmckenzieismagic]

To put this simply Everton seen Dixie sold and had Lawton. We had Ball and sold him and although never replaced moved on, we have had far greater winning custodians of the club than moyes.

 

I seriously can not understand those who choose to favour mediocrity and allow shite off a long term manager rather than challenge the very shite attitude that has never been nor should be accepted by our club.

 

Everton was and is Everton a long time before we needed moyes, he's not earned the the right to redefine this clubs expectations or motto. He's made his bed, he can lie in it.

 

 

I have been around the world several times and met countless ex-pat Evertonians

 

I go to most games home and away and spoken to thousands of fellow Blues along the way.

 

I have participated in online forums and chatted to Evertonians from many walks of life

 

 

......... and I have never come across a single one that has said " Hey you know what, I think I would prefer us to be a mediocre side. That winning trophies stuff is overrated"

 

 

And just what do you define as mediocrity anyway? Is 6th in the Prem mediocre?

 

 

Incidenatally wether you like it or not Moyse has already redefined the clubs expectations anyway. Before he joined we were expecting to be relegated sooner rather than later and now fans are after his head for finishing 6th in the Prem

Edited March 25, 2013 by duncanmckenzieismagic

[Avinalaff]

Moyes is such a twat.

[flaminfox]

People seem to have been spoiled by Moyes, as far as I can see stats wise and position wise we are far better off with him.

[Guest]

We need WHOLESALE changes to get the average of the squad down. Will Davey do that? If he signs on then he has to. For me we complain the squad isnt big enough but surely Lundstram,Garbutt etc need to be given squad numbers and integrate them and call younger players into what was the reserve league but is now an under 21 league. Ive got a horrible feeling the good football we played in the first half of the season was Davey thinking "Fuck it its my last season" hoping it would get him a bigger job however if he doesnt and he signs back will it revert back to normal? Seriously how easy is the oppostion managers team talk against us? "Right lads they play 4-5-1 as usual weve watched the tapes, wind Felliani up and double up down our right hand side". Id just love a manager that changes as the game goes on not just wingers swapping sides. I would take a couple of mid table finishes if it meant we were buying young,quick footballers that can counter attack and play without fear. If we sell Felli and get £25 mill and maybe get shut of Naismith for a couple of mill we should be looking at the likes of Lallana,Lukaku,McCarthy,Gudetti,Weissman,Wanyama,Capoue,Marin that could change our team dramatically not buying 30 somethings that are on big wages that their best days are behind them like Lescott

[duncanmckenzieismagic]

We need WHOLESALE changes to get the average of the squad down. Will Davey do that? If he signs on then he has to. For me we complain the squad isnt big enough but surely Lundstram,Garbutt etc need to be given squad numbers and integrate them and call younger players into what was the reserve league but is now an under 21 league. Ive got a horrible feeling the good football we played in the first half of the season was Davey thinking "Fuck it its my last season" hoping it would get him a bigger job however if he doesnt and he signs back will it revert back to normal? Seriously how easy is the oppostion managers team talk against us? "Right lads they play 4-5-1 as usual weve watched the tapes, wind Felliani up and double up down our right hand side". Id just love a manager that changes as the game goes on not just wingers swapping sides. I would take a couple of mid table finishes if it meant we were buying young,quick footballers that can counter attack and play without fear. If we sell Felli and get £25 mill and maybe get shut of Naismith for a couple of mill we should be looking at the likes of Lallana,Lukaku,McCarthy,Gudetti,Weissman,Wanyama,Capoue,Marin that could change our team dramatically not buying 30 somethings that are on big wages that their best days are behind them like Lescott

 

 

I think we need the opposite!

 

IMO we are only 2 or 3 players away from being an excellent side so why break that up?

 

Yes we need to bring the average age of the squad down but I think Moyes has already started preparing for that

 

Hiibo & Neville replaced by Coleman & Stones

 

Distin replaced by Duffy

 

Osman replaced by Barkley

 

We have some very promising youngsters coming through and all of a sudden the squad doesn't look so old and that is before we sign anyone

[Hafnia]

I think we are a change in tactics and mindset away from a very good side.

 

Dunc, I don't think I've ever heard a fan state they have mediocre expectations either. I've observed and concluded it though.

[duncanmckenzieismagic]

I think we are a change in tactics and mindset away from a very good side.

 

Dunc, I don't think I've ever heard a fan state they have mediocre expectations either. I've observed and concluded it though.

 

 

That doesnt sound like wholesale changes to me

 

So ok ,lets go with your theory for now.

 

Moyes is shite and he has had his p45 , you can even pick whatever manager you like and we will say for arguments sake that he is overjoyed at the offer and accepts the job on the spot

 

BK say ok fella here is your £1.5M war chest go and give it your best shot

 

 

What exactly are your expectations of this new manager? Surely if he finishes outside the top 4 or even 5 then he is no better than Moyes and your still settling for mediocrity?

[Dalziel Kane]

The mindset thing is basically one of the biggest issues.

 

If, and when, we do finally get a new manager in, I'm hoping for someone with a little more ambition. It's not all about the league, maybe a new face won't be quite able to duplicate the fine finishes that Moyes has done, but so long as the Scot remains in charge, we're simply not going to win anything.