Matt Posted June 22, 2016 Report Share Posted June 22, 2016 I want to be governed by someone who I feel has my interess and the interests of UK at heart. Ceding power to EU removes that feeling, forever. Simple as that. Vote Leave. We may subsequently cock it up, but it will be our cock up and we will put it right. I think remaining leaves us exposed to the consequences of, and collateral damage from, other people's, far bigger cock ups! But it won't, because nearly everything has to stay the same as it is now in order to trade with EU (if I understood correctly). So it's effectively cutting your nose off to spite your face based on a load of propaganda from the inbred fuckwits leading the charge Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill Posted June 22, 2016 Report Share Posted June 22, 2016 I would like point people in the direction of todays Daily Mail, we've had the scaremongering from all directions, now go and read what will really happen if we come out. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt Posted June 22, 2016 Report Share Posted June 22, 2016 I would like point people in the direction of todays Daily Mail, we've had the scaremongering from all directions, now go and read what will really happen if we come out. Daily Mail? You trying to make a point or lose it? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeO Posted June 22, 2016 Report Share Posted June 22, 2016 I would like point people in the direction of todays Daily Mail, we've had the scaremongering from all directions, now go and read what will really happen if we come out. You want people to read the Daily Mail to get a balanced view ? One of the most virulent pro-out tabloids? They don't know what will happen if we come out any more than anyone else and they're up there scaremongering with the best of them. I don't need to read today's edition to know it'll just be more of the same. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt Posted June 22, 2016 Report Share Posted June 22, 2016 (edited) You want people to read the Daily Mail to get a balanced view ? One of the most virulent pro-out tabloids? They don't know what will happen if we come out any more than anyone else and they're up there scaremongering with the best of them. I don't need to read today's edition to know it'll just be more of the same. It's not called the Daily Fail for nothing Though this story is quite nice to "read" (NSFW) http://www.dailymail.co.uk/tvshowbiz/article-3654153/Busty-Casey-Batchelor-shows-curvaceous-body-touch-underboob-wows-flattering-black-bikini-frolicking-Marbella-beach.html Edited June 22, 2016 by Matt Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeO Posted June 22, 2016 Report Share Posted June 22, 2016 It's not called the Daily Fail for nothing Though this story is quite nice to "read" (NSFW) http://www.dailymail.co.uk/tvshowbiz/article-3654153/Busty-Casey-Batchelor-shows-curvaceous-body-touch-underboob-wows-flattering-black-bikini-frolicking-Marbella-beach.html Wouldn't wipe my arse with it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill Posted June 22, 2016 Report Share Posted June 22, 2016 So your balanced view is reading only the rags that are doing the scaremongering. !! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeO Posted June 22, 2016 Report Share Posted June 22, 2016 So your balanced view is reading only the rags that are doing the scaremongering. !! You're asking us to read one of them. I made my mind up a long time ago and no scaremongering by either side has altered it; it's not going to now. Matt 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt Posted June 22, 2016 Report Share Posted June 22, 2016 So your balanced view is reading only the rags that are doing the scaremongering. !! I've not read the papers, I've watched professors and economist debates to make my decision. The Daily Mail is just as bad a rag as the s*n, challenging for the title of bullshit scaremongering crown. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt Posted June 22, 2016 Report Share Posted June 22, 2016 Thought this was good: How you can vote ‘Undecided’ (please share) If you’re undecided you’re not alone. Many people know the issues are complex, and the outcome is genuinely un-knowable. Therefore it’s hard to decide. You may be attracted by the ‘leave’ campaign’s appeal to our sense of strength and independence as a nation. You may also be attracted by the ‘remain’ campaign’s desire to sustain our economy through existing international alliances. Perhaps your longer perspective on history allows you to see both sides in a way that younger people cannot. Here’s the simple argument, which few seem to be making, that gave me the fullest confidence how to vote on Thursday. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest rusty747 Posted June 22, 2016 Report Share Posted June 22, 2016 But it won't, because nearly everything has to stay the same as it is now in order to trade with EU (if I understood correctly). So it's effectively cutting your nose off to spite your face based on a load of propaganda from the inbred fuckwits leading the charge I think we will have to agree to differ there. There are fuckwits on both sides of the discussion. I made my mind up when both sides idiots had been discounted. The EU wastes tens of millions every year moving HQ back and forth between Strasbourg and Brussels just to make the French feel important. The multi million euro building in Strasbourg is empty for 300 days a year and a fleet of eu lorries takes all the paperwork and paraphanalia back and forth every month so that hq can operate out of Strasbourg for 4 days before moving back to Brussels. With efficiencies like that give me 1960s UK, trade unions etc etc and we would still be better off. And, in control of our own destiny. We will cede power to Europe if we remain, one painful inch (sorry, centimetre) at a time and there will be nothing then that we can do about it. Vote Leave. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeO Posted June 22, 2016 Report Share Posted June 22, 2016 I would like point people in the direction of todays Daily Mail, we've had the scaremongering from all directions, now go and read what will really happen if we come out. "England can turn back on this road that it has led humanity down. It can turn away from Great Britain to become little England: small, weak, and white. But that has never been the dream of the English, or the British. It is not now the dream of any of Britain’s major political parties or leaders. It is only the dream of a few populist xenophobes, buoyed by a few small minded newspaper editors and owners of the Mail and the Sun." http://www.huffingtonpost.com/ricken-patel/britains-greatness-is-why_b_10594066.html Sure this won't change any minds but I'm just putting it out there. And, in control of our own destiny. From the same article... "Absolutely no one holding any power in the EU is not either directly democratically elected, or appointed by and accountable to someone who is. And in that European democracy, the UK has won 98 percent of the votes that have been taken. Try getting a Brexiter to explain where, exactly, the UK has been so oppressed." Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lowensda Posted June 22, 2016 Report Share Posted June 22, 2016 (edited) Thought this was good: Or.......just have an undecided box, where people can genuinely cross the undecided option. Therefore if the majority of people are 'undecided', the decision will have to delayed and better arguments will have to be put forward. I'll be honest Matt, the above is a load of bollocks. It's like the "If you don't like this picture, your nan will die" things you used to see on Facebook. I agree you shouldn't waste a vote, but don't tell me you should vote Remain because it'll give you another go, we don't know that for sure. Maybe the EU will decide that from now on, they decide who should stay or leave. Created by a Remain campaigner, designed to fool the undecided. Edited June 22, 2016 by Lowensda Matt 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt Posted June 22, 2016 Report Share Posted June 22, 2016 I think we will have to agree to differ there. There are fuckwits on both sides of the discussion. I made my mind up when both sides idiots had been discounted. The EU wastes tens of millions every year moving HQ back and forth between Strasbourg and Brussels just to make the French feel important. The multi million euro building in Strasbourg is empty for 300 days a year and a fleet of eu lorries takes all the paperwork and paraphanalia back and forth every month so that hq can operate out of Strasbourg for 4 days before moving back to Brussels. With efficiencies like that give me 1960s UK, trade unions etc etc and we would still be better off. And, in control of our own destiny. We will cede power to Europe if we remain, one painful inch (sorry, centimetre) at a time and there will be nothing then that we can do about it. Vote Leave. Completely agree, and I've done the same (trust me, going with something Osbourne and Cameron support makes me want to throw up). Our own government wastes millions of our money on frivolous claims etc. You think they won't skim off the top IF there's a real financial advantage? Control of our own destiny? Not a chance, because if we want to do anything relating to EU countries, we still have to adhere to the EU standards Imperial vs Metric?! Getting desperate there mate! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt Posted June 22, 2016 Report Share Posted June 22, 2016 (edited) Or.......just have an undecided box, where people can genuinely cross the undecided option. Therefore if the majority of people are 'undecided', the decision will have to delayed and better arguments will have to be put forward. I'll be honest Matt, the above is a load of bollocks. It's like the "If you don't like this picture, your nan will die" things you used to see on Facebook. I agree you shouldn't waste a vote, but don't tell me you should vote Remain because it'll give you another go, we don't know that for sure. Maybe the EU will decide that from now on, they decide who should stay or leave. Created by a Remain campaigner, designed to fool the undecided. How the fuck is it like that?! Vote one way and going back is going to be very difficult. Vote the other and you've got a chance of changing your mind in the future. Hardly a fucking chain mail / clickbait. Ideally I would have an undecided box too (also for general elections) but we don't have that option. Edited June 22, 2016 by Matt Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lowensda Posted June 22, 2016 Report Share Posted June 22, 2016 How the fuck is it like that?! Vote one way and going back is going to be very difficult. Vote the other and you've got a chance of changing your mind in the future. Hardly a fucking chain mail / clickbait. Ideally I would have an undecided box too (also for general elections) but we don't have that option. Just because you disagreed with me, i'm voting out (that's a joke) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest rusty747 Posted June 22, 2016 Report Share Posted June 22, 2016 Thought this was good: Sure its not a con trick from the Remainers to get the undecideds to vote Remain? I dont believe that what they say in theory could be made to actually happen n practice. Realistically, this is our last and best chance to take UK back for ourselves. We can still be a friend to Europe, but from outside EU. We can still accept immigrants, but on a points based system applied impartially to everyone - from Europe or anywhete else. The current system actively discriminates against non eu citizens. Vote Leave. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lowensda Posted June 22, 2016 Report Share Posted June 22, 2016 This speaks my language., Matt 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest rusty747 Posted June 22, 2016 Report Share Posted June 22, 2016 Completely agree, and I've done the same (trust me, going with something Osbourne and Cameron support makes me want to throw up). Our own government wastes millions of our money on frivolous claims etc. You think they won't skim off the top IF there's a real financial advantage? Control of our own destiny? Not a chance, because if we want to do anything relating to EU countries, we still have to adhere to the EU standards Imperial vs Metric?! Getting desperate there mate! You have highlighted the great debate very nicely. What should happen in theory and what does/will happen in practice are two very different things. Lets be honest, if the theory worked in practice, eu wouldn't be in such a mess with bailouts, immigration issues, sovereignty issues etc, would it. I have no issue with your theory. Unfortunately, as soon as you introduce humans into the concept it all unravels at a great rate. I would rather have British politicians directly responsible to a British electorate and to cut ties with eu completely. The proposals for a Nordic trading block with Sweden, Denmark and Norway ound promising, the Commonwealth stands ready to increase trade with us, Boeing is ready to move its European HQ to UK. There is nothing to be afraid of by leaving and thete will be lots of opportunity. I say grasp that opportunity. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt Posted June 22, 2016 Report Share Posted June 22, 2016 Sure its not a con trick from the Remainers to get the undecideds to vote Remain? I dont believe that what they say in theory could be made to actually happen n practice. Realistically, this is our last and best chance to take UK back for ourselves. We can still be a friend to Europe, but from outside EU. We can still accept immigrants, but on a points based system applied impartially to everyone - from Europe or anywhete else. The current system actively discriminates against non eu citizens. Vote Leave. You don't have to type "vote leave" at the end of every post dude, your stance is quite clear I see it as a simple explication rather than a con trick, though I guess a Leave guy would obviously see it the other way. But what I don't see how the logic of asking 27 nations (currently) if we can join them again is as simple as holding another referendum, by then we hopefully have someone who has actually got a concise argument (from both sides) to really show the pro's and con's instead of the popularity fearmongering we've seen (again from both sides). Being friends with the EU is very costly if you're not in it, see Switzerland and the amount of concessions and double-manufacturing standards (internal vs EU regs), so yeah we can be friendly but it's going to cost us a fortune anyway Immigration should indeed be better controlled, so doesn't it make more sense to work with the other nations to have a better solution, rather than a "fuck you lot, we'll sort ourselves out thanks". Really surprised someone who travels the world for his job is going to vote leave, will it not affect your job? MikeO 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt Posted June 22, 2016 Report Share Posted June 22, 2016 You have highlighted the great debate very nicely. What should happen in theory and what does/will happen in practice are two very different things. Lets be honest, if the theory worked in practice, eu wouldn't be in such a mess with bailouts, immigration issues, sovereignty issues etc, would it. I have no issue with your theory. Unfortunately, as soon as you introduce humans into the concept it all unravels at a great rate. I would rather have British politicians directly responsible to a British electorate and to cut ties with eu completely. The proposals for a Nordic trading block with Sweden, Denmark and Norway ound promising, the Commonwealth stands ready to increase trade with us, Boeing is ready to move its European HQ to UK. There is nothing to be afraid of by leaving and thete will be lots of opportunity. I say grasp that opportunity. I say take it when the theory is PhD level thesis quality, not year 6 SATS MikeO 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
markjazzbassist Posted June 22, 2016 Report Share Posted June 22, 2016 guys please vote remain other wise they'll be deporting matt back to liverpool lol Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt Posted June 22, 2016 Report Share Posted June 22, 2016 guys please vote remain other wise they'll be deporting matt back to liverpool lol Fuck that, you'd have to drag me back to England! markjazzbassist 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest rusty747 Posted June 22, 2016 Report Share Posted June 22, 2016 If we were not in EU now and the regerendum was about whether to join or not, would you really vote to join? The EU is in a mess, its getting worse and is not going to recover. It is actually just a huge social experiment that has gone horribly wrong but the people driving the train have decreed that it is too big to fail. Where have we heard that before? If we do not vote leave, then life in UK could get very ugly, very quickly. And, no, it is not a threat. It is genuine cause for concern about our future. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest rusty747 Posted June 22, 2016 Report Share Posted June 22, 2016 (edited) I say take it when the theory is PhD level thesis quality, not year 6 SATS Well, actually Matt! Not quite Phd, but not far short. This is the summary of the issue according to those more qualified than I. Has the EU referendum come down to this? Both remain and leave camps believe that the EU is in need of reform. The remain camp believes the EU can be reformed but only from the inside. The leave camp believes that that the EU is beyond reforming and is marching forever forward to becoming the United States of Europe. The question is. Will we ever have enough influence to reform the EU to conform to our vision of the future? For us the answer is no and that is why we advocate voting out so that that the UK can be in control of its own future. Edited June 22, 2016 by rusty747 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt Posted June 22, 2016 Report Share Posted June 22, 2016 If we were not in EU now and the regerendum was about whether to join or not, would you really vote to join? The EU is in a mess, its getting worse and is not going to recover. It is actually just a huge social experiment that has gone horribly wrong but the people driving the train have decreed that it is too big to fail. Where have we heard that before? If we do not vote leave, then life in UK could get very ugly, very quickly. And, no, it is not a threat. It is genuine cause for concern about our future. Absolutely Its going to anyway because of this poluarity competition farce of a referendum Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt Posted June 22, 2016 Report Share Posted June 22, 2016 Well, actually Matt! Not quite Phd, but not far short. Don't mean you, I mean the people in charge, on both sides! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeO Posted June 22, 2016 Report Share Posted June 22, 2016 There seem to have been a few late voters in the TT poll, knew we'd come to our senses . (OK so I rigged it; put it back right in a bit ) Matt 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest rusty747 Posted June 22, 2016 Report Share Posted June 22, 2016 (edited) Don't mean you, I mean the people in charge, on both sides! Ok, thanks. Toys back in my pram again now! I edited one of my previous posts to try to highlight what I believe is the biggest difference between the two camps. I think everyone would agree that EU is not working and is in dire need of reform. The remainers stance is that UK should remain to bring about that reform from within. The leave campaign believes that reform is just not possible to a degree that would come anywhere near to addressing UK interests and that the only option is therefore to leave and take control of our own desiny again. I have to agree with the leave position. Edited June 22, 2016 by rusty747 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest rusty747 Posted June 22, 2016 Report Share Posted June 22, 2016 (edited) I smell a bit of a rat there Mike. Ah, I see you have had the decency to come clean. Good wind up mate! Edited June 22, 2016 by rusty747 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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