Shukes Posted June 16, 2016 Report Share Posted June 16, 2016 Europe is the only trading region with zero growth over the last decade. Britain would be free to increase trade with regions that are actually growing. We've been a trading nation for centuries, and done well thank you, so the EU can keep its "you'll shrivel and die without us" attitude. That being said, I would vote "out" while wanting to remain "in" as a means of gaining the concessions needed for us to trade more effectively with other nations - to undo those handcuffs we've worn for too many years now. If we don't, we'll become increasingly powerless. Negotiation is all about leverage. I wouldn't say we will become increasingly powerless as while in the EU we have grown into the fifth largest economy on the world. Which is damn impressive for a country of our size. There is nothing to suggest this is going to change by staying in the EU and I cannot guess what will happen if we leave. But having two children under the age of six, I just can't risk it on English ego. MikeO 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
holystove Posted June 16, 2016 Report Share Posted June 16, 2016 so far as I understood Holystove before, that's not the case Might be true, I don't know. Greece definitely cooked their books. I was just responding to John's statement that Greece were" forced to join the eurozone by the undemocratic EU elite", which holds no basis in reality. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Makis Posted June 16, 2016 Report Share Posted June 16, 2016 I've traveled to 75 different countries on business, and I'm sure very many other Brits have, too. A big majority of my business has been outside the EU. Britain would do just fine. History rather proves that. Eventually, maybe. When Soviet Union collapsed Finland hit the worst recession in its history even though exports to SU only amounted to less than 10%. There is a huge knock-down effect. It's not just the companies that directly produce the exported goods, it's also the companies that service those companies that are hit hard. And when unemployment rises, the service sector is also hit (people have less money to spend). There were other issues as well at the time, but the collapse of SU was a major reason. Thankfully Nokia turned into the biggest mobile phone company in the world and by the end of the 90's the recession was over. But it was a very bad time for many. Lots of people lost their business, their savings and many lost their life (usually by their own hand). So yeah, of course you'll eventually crawl out of the hole you are digging but it will be preceded by a recession that makes this one look like a golden age. That's my estimation, anyways. Just the possibility that the Brexit might happen has hit the big companies' stocks hard. And what do they do when the share prices plummet? They lay people off. I would also guess that companies that are dependant on EU business are quite willing to relocate to the continent. If your business is selling goods a German manufacturer and suddenly the cost of your products for them is higher thanks to import taxes, they quite likely look for other sources. BTW, how do you reckon the cost of the Brexit will be paid for? My guess is more cuts to NHS, education and so on and higher taxes. But as I said, you are free to make your own mistakes. My main worry is that it will give more traction to the right wing parties in Europe. Hungary is already controlled by them and Poland is going to a less desirable decision. Front Nacional in france and Pegida in Germany are quite popular. EU breaks and we'll be back to the good ol' Europe where we had smaller or bigger conflicts every generation. And of course there would be no real counterforce to Russia (USA is more concerned about the Far East and this will clearly be the target of their foreign policy in the future). They already took Crimea (and this was partly possible because of the muted response to them grabbing land from Georgia earlier) and are waging war in Ukraine. There are other countries in the Eastern Europe that have large Russian minorities so if they are not kept in check they will eventually demand those parts should also be allowed to vote if they want to join Russia -> conflicts ensue. It's folly to think war is impossible. That's what Europeans have thought many times in the past. After the Peace of Westphalia and after the Treaty of Versailles, for instance. After the latter, they even created the League of Nations to make sure there would be no more wars. Leaders in France and Germany realised this after World War II and that's why they created the seed that has grown in the EU. And as the popularity of the right wing parties prove, people haven't really changed. And you prove there are enough people who don't care. But you British obviously don't care. You sit on your comfy little island. You have been given much more concessions than other countries and yet you complain. This has pissed off a lot of people on the continent. I really do hope if Brexit happens that Scotland gets a new referendum. That would be fun and I suspect this time the Queen driving around Scotland in a Range Rover won't swing the vote. MikeO and holystove 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Makis Posted June 16, 2016 Report Share Posted June 16, 2016 BTW, when people like Putin, Trump and most right wing politicians in Europe (including Farage) support the Brexit it for me proves what a bad idea it is... the worst of the remain camp are nowhere near the asshattery level of the Brexit camp's finest. holystove, MikeO and Matt 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hafnia Posted June 16, 2016 Author Report Share Posted June 16, 2016 BTW, when people like Putin, Trump and most right wing politicians in Europe (including Farage) support the Brexit it for me proves what a bad idea it is... the worst of the remain camp are nowhere near the asshattery level of the Brexit camp's finest. Some people are actually basing their decisions solely on this... i have watched as much debate as possible. Out is my overwhelming choice. Not arsed about who stands for what... its the arguments snd how they stand up. Project fear have made the wrong move and its bitten them on the arse. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt Posted June 16, 2016 Report Share Posted June 16, 2016 Some people are actually basing their decisions solely on this... i have watched as much debate as possible. Out is my overwhelming choice. Not arsed about who stands for what... its the arguments snd how they stand up. Project fear have made the wrong move and its bitten them on the arse. Thought that was the Leave campaigns nickname? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hafnia Posted June 16, 2016 Author Report Share Posted June 16, 2016 Thought that was the Leave campaigns nickname? https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/amp.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2016/jun/15/osborne-project-fear-budget-eu-refereundum-leave-scare?client=ms-android-samsung# Not with that little odious twat osbourne. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Makis Posted June 16, 2016 Report Share Posted June 16, 2016 Some people are actually basing their decisions solely on this... i have watched as much debate as possible. Out is my overwhelming choice. Not arsed about who stands for what... its the arguments snd how they stand up. Project fear have made the wrong move and its bitten them on the arse. Sorry but what are the arguments? Preferably ones that have nothing to do with sentiment? Of course it's a valid reason as any, but not really an argument. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt Posted June 16, 2016 Report Share Posted June 16, 2016 https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/amp.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2016/jun/15/osborne-project-fear-budget-eu-refereundum-leave-scare?client=ms-android-samsung# Not with that little odious twat osbourne. They're all odious twats! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeO Posted June 16, 2016 Report Share Posted June 16, 2016 Thought that was the Leave campaigns nickname? Depends which side you're on, they're both doing it. Not with that little odious twat osbourne. More odious than Farage and Gove? Biologically impossible. Osbourne is without a doubt odious but he's just an apprentice compared to those two. Matt 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johnh Posted June 16, 2016 Report Share Posted June 16, 2016 BTW, when people like Putin, Trump and most right wing politicians in Europe (including Farage) support the Brexit it for me proves what a bad idea it is... the worst of the remain camp are nowhere near the asshattery level of the Brexit camp's finest. When bringing personalities into the equation you have to consider 'vested interests'. There is a big chunk of the 'remains' who have either done well out of the EU or hope to do well of it on a personal level. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt Posted June 16, 2016 Report Share Posted June 16, 2016 http://www.skysports.com/football/news/11095/10314861/brexit-could-affect-european-premier-league-player-imports-warns-expert-lawyer pretty sure it's been mentioned somewhere, but just in case. Frankly, the impact on football is the least of the worries! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
holystove Posted June 16, 2016 Report Share Posted June 16, 2016 don't agree with the sentiment of this article but it does clear up a couple of facts. http://www.ft.com/intl/cms/s/2/3748166e-3151-11e6-ad39-3fee5ffe5b5b.html#axzz4Bk2BWkAm Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
holystove Posted June 16, 2016 Report Share Posted June 16, 2016 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Makis Posted June 16, 2016 Report Share Posted June 16, 2016 When bringing personalities into the equation you have to consider 'vested interests'. There is a big chunk of the 'remains' who have either done well out of the EU or hope to do well of it on a personal level. Of course, but that holds true with Putin, Trump etc. as well. And, frankly, those are the people I'd last want to help with their vested interests. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt Posted June 16, 2016 Report Share Posted June 16, 2016 Belgian Louis http://www.toffeetalk.com/index.php?/topic/27945-brexit/?p=521558 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
holystove Posted June 16, 2016 Report Share Posted June 16, 2016 Belgian Louis http://www.toffeetalk.com/index.php?/topic/27945-brexit/?p=521558 woops my bad. .. just saw that on twitter and didn't remember seeing it on here Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Louis Posted June 16, 2016 Report Share Posted June 16, 2016 It's nice to know that my reputation has reached Belgium. holystove and Romey 1878 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
markjazzbassist Posted June 16, 2016 Report Share Posted June 16, 2016 http://www.npr.org/sections/thetwo-way/2016/06/16/482330787/british-member-of-parliament-shot-and-killed-suspect-arrested campaigning has stopped due to an MP being killed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shukes Posted June 16, 2016 Report Share Posted June 16, 2016 http://www.npr.org/sections/thetwo-way/2016/06/16/482330787/british-member-of-parliament-shot-and-killed-suspect-arrested campaigning has stopped due to an MP being killed. Britain's first at its best. Hate that group so much. I know it's not thier fault. Just hate to see how people react to them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StevO Posted June 16, 2016 Report Share Posted June 16, 2016 It seems leaving is going to be bad. Staying is going to be bad. Can we have a third choice? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
markjazzbassist Posted June 16, 2016 Report Share Posted June 16, 2016 It seems leaving is going to be bad. Staying is going to be bad. Can we have a third choice? yes you can be the USA's colonies. come full circle. supreme leader Trump will guide your path. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StevO Posted June 16, 2016 Report Share Posted June 16, 2016 yes you can be the USA's colonies. come full circle. supreme leader Trump will guide your path. Only if the guys who build the Mexico wall can build a bridge from Liverpool to NYC. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cornish Steve Posted June 16, 2016 Report Share Posted June 16, 2016 Only if the guys who build the Mexico wall can build a bridge from Liverpool to NYC. "I will build a bridge, it will be such a good bridge, the world will have never seen such a great bridge before. We'll build this bridge, and the EU will pay for it. Yes, they will pay..." StevO, Matt and markjazzbassist 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cornish Steve Posted June 16, 2016 Report Share Posted June 16, 2016 Just read about the shooting death of an MP. That is simply horrendous. Is it at all related to the upcoming vote? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeO Posted June 16, 2016 Report Share Posted June 16, 2016 "I will build a bridge, it will be such a good bridge, the world will have never seen such a great bridge before. We'll build this bridge, and the EU will pay for it. Yes, they will pay..." Then the US can apply for membership of the EU . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeO Posted June 16, 2016 Report Share Posted June 16, 2016 Britain's first at its best. Hate that group so much. I know it's not thier fault. Just hate to see how people react to them. I am a member of the Avaaz community so got this email just now, not trying to guilt-trip anyone, just something to think on... Dear Avaaz community, I've just been told that Jo Cox has been killed. She was a mother, a campaigner, an MP, an advocate for the voiceless and those in poverty, and a passionate fighter for people and principles. She was close to many on the Avaaz team, and my friend. I can't imagine, in these tears, how to honour her, but then yes I can. It's through love. Jo was passionately campaigning for Britain to stay in Europe. Not just because it is smart, or advantageous. But because she spent her life caring for Syrians, and Africans. She was a beautiful light of love for all people, for humanity. The man who took her life, stabbing her and shooting her over and over, screamed "Britain First". Somehow it's not surprising, in an awful way, that her life would be taken by that kind of hate, that kind of selfishness. Because it was to fighting that darkness that she devoted her time on this earth. Our instinct is to come together at times like this, share our love for each other. I think Jo would want that. But she would also want us to fight, to pick up the banner that the brutal murderer made fall from her hands, and carry it forward. In a Britain that risks growing nastier, smaller, less honest, and more selfish, to pick up the banner for love, for Great Britain, for the country that is great enough to love immigrants, and love all people. This is what Jo would have wanted, and why I say we fight, with love, for the world Jo fought for -- the world we all want. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill Posted June 16, 2016 Report Share Posted June 16, 2016 (edited) "Jo was passionately campaigning for Britain to stay in Europe". Oh dear oh dear, as much as I feel for the girl and her family I am disgusted that the stay in brigade, on top of all their scaremongering are now using this unfortunate incident as emotional blackmail. I have no time for anyone who can sink so low as to use somebody's death to try and get more votes. Shameful. Edited June 16, 2016 by Bill Matt, MC11, Cornish Steve and 3 others 4 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cornish Steve Posted June 16, 2016 Report Share Posted June 16, 2016 (edited) "Jo was passionately campaigning for Britain to stay in Europe". Oh dear oh dear, as much as I feel for the girl and her family I am disgusted that the stay in brigade, on top of all their scaremongering are now using this unfortunate incident as emotional blackmail. I have no time for anyone who can sink so low as to use somebody's death to try and get more votes. Shameful. I completely and utterly agree. It's disgusting that, literally hours after her death, some would use this incident to brand all 'out' voters as hateful and all 'in' voters as loving. We don't know the full story, but there's just no way this madman is representative of everyone choosing for vote for Brexit. Some people have no conscience. Edited June 16, 2016 by Cornish Steve Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeO Posted June 16, 2016 Report Share Posted June 16, 2016 As I said, not trying to guilt-trip anyone. This is not the official "remain" campaign trying to capitalize on the incident, just a group of people expressing heartfelt views. Why is it wrong to honour your murdered friend? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.