holystove Posted June 20, 2016 Report Share Posted June 20, 2016 Just to balance that, have a look on Youtube for 'Jeremy Paxman in Brussels - who really rules us.' He also finds that the EU spends 2 million euro's EVERY month moving the beaurocrats and their paperwork from Brussels to Strasbourg - for 4 days, (and back). He also claims that since the inception of the EU the costs of this move exceed 2 billion euro's and it achieves nothing. The monthly move to strasbourg is definitely one of the dumbest things ever. The french refuse to make brussels the permanent seat of the parliament because they feel like a french city should house one of the institutions. Dumb patriotic bastards. The amount of blatant lies highlighted by oliver is amazing. Especially liked(?) that one about the pillows. Who would believe such a thing though? Is there anyone in their right mind who believes his naps are regulated by the eu? what are they trying to achieve there? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt Posted June 20, 2016 Report Share Posted June 20, 2016 To be honest, I've posted that because it's lighthearted and the whole thing has just become such a farce I fancied a laugh. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
markjazzbassist Posted June 20, 2016 Report Share Posted June 20, 2016 The monthly move to strasbourg is definitely one of the dumbest things ever. The french refuse to make brussels the permanent seat of the parliament because they feel like a french city should house one of the institutions. Dumb patriotic bastards. The amount of blatant lies highlighted by oliver is amazing. Especially liked(?) that one about the pillows. Who would believe such a thing though? Is there anyone in their right mind who believes his naps are regulated by the eu? what are they trying to achieve there? he is a comedian not a journalist. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeO Posted June 20, 2016 Report Share Posted June 20, 2016 he is a comedian not a journalist. Big crossover at times though Mark, comedians often talk more sense than journos (and politicians come to that). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
markjazzbassist Posted June 20, 2016 Report Share Posted June 20, 2016 Big crossover at times though Mark, comedians often talk more sense than journos (and politicians come to that). i agree wholeheartedly mike, but he has come out after people take his show as gospel and said essentially i am a comedian, we try and find the facts and let that in itself be comical but in the end our number one goal is laughs and not journalistic integrity. i personally love his show and think he does a great job of highlighting the obsurdity of america. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt Posted June 20, 2016 Report Share Posted June 20, 2016 he is a comedian not a journalist. he has a whole team of researchers though. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
markjazzbassist Posted June 20, 2016 Report Share Posted June 20, 2016 he has a whole team of researchers though. i agree, please read my post in response to mike. here is a good article about it below http://www.npr.org/2016/02/12/466569047/is-john-olivers-show-journalism-he-says-the-answer-is-simple-no On whether his show is investigative journalism No. There's a pretty simple answer to that. No, it is not. No, we are a comedy show so everything we do is in pursuit of comedy. ... It's confusing to me somehow the fact that this is often the line of questioning. ... It almost makes me feel like, when people say: "This is journalism," it almost makes me feel like: Am I a terrible comedian? ... Is it like looking at a sculptor and saying: "Well it's not art, so are you trying to build a wall? What exactly are you working on here?" Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt Posted June 20, 2016 Report Share Posted June 20, 2016 Dunno how I missed that mate, sorry! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
holystove Posted June 21, 2016 Report Share Posted June 21, 2016 he is a comedian not a journalist. I realise he is. Used to watch him on The Daily Show. Never thought he was very funny, though. Fact that he's a comedian doesnt change anything about the facts he is (trying to be) funny about. He didnt make that pillow political add, nor did he come up with the 350 number; he just highlighted why they are false arguments and lies. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt Posted June 21, 2016 Report Share Posted June 21, 2016 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lowensda Posted June 21, 2016 Report Share Posted June 21, 2016 This smells too much like a protest vote from the people who can't stand the current government IMO. They're not necessarily thinking about the repercussions but believing that leaving the EU will cause friction and show some 'power' in the struggle between politicians and the people. Matt, holystove and MikeO 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johnh Posted June 21, 2016 Report Share Posted June 21, 2016 Extract from the Leader column in today's Telegraph which just about sums up my reason for voting 'leave'. .....The fact that the EU is a collection of democracies does not detract from the reality that this is a profoundly undemocratic institution. This has nothing to do with being anti-European. It is about the type of institution the EU has become. The question that arises. therefore, is whether we wish to stay in a club whose rules and membership have changed so markedly since we joined 43 years ago. ..............In addition, what future does the EU offer as it lurches from one crisis to another? It has shackled itself to a currency union that has wrecked the livelihoods of its southern member states, causing mass unemployment among young people and encouraging the growth of extremist political parties. Its economies have stagnated, other than that of Germany, to whose advantage the system principally works. Had we joined the euro, as many Remainers now warning of catastrophe if we leave wanted us to, then Britain would be in a desperate mess. Why, then, would a country with our history and economic strength want to continue its membership of such a dysfunctional outfit? Ask ourselves this question: if we weren't in it would we be agitating to join now? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rubecula Posted June 21, 2016 Report Share Posted June 21, 2016 One thing here is clear. Politicians have got nasty over this, yet we in here have different points of view and still carry on as normal. We should run the country Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chach Posted June 21, 2016 Report Share Posted June 21, 2016 http://www.ft.com/intl/cms/s/2/3748166e-3151-11e6-ad39-3fee5ffe5b5b.html#axzz4Bk2BWkAm "if the normal rules of politics still apply, we will vote remain, if the rules of politics have changed completely we will vote for leave and America should start thinking about a Donald Trump presidency" O_o Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeO Posted June 21, 2016 Report Share Posted June 21, 2016 http://www.ft.com/intl/cms/s/2/3748166e-3151-11e6-ad39-3fee5ffe5b5b.html#axzz4Bk2BWkAm "if the normal rules of politics still apply, we will vote remain, if the rules of politics have changed completely we will vote for leave and America should start thinking about a Donald Trump presidency" O_o Excellent article. Out voters should really take a long hard look in the mirror on Thursday and think about who they're siding with imo. "The referendum campaign is a contest between competing values: between liberal internationalism and a pinched nationalism, between an open-trading system and marginalisation. This is why Britain’s allies, from Australia to Japan and the US, have unanimously supported Remain — and why Marine Le Pen and Donald Trump favour Brexit." If you still believe "out" is best then go for it; but don't complain about the consequences in this thread in ten years time because it'll be your fault. Anyway, campaigning normally stops twenty-four hours before an election in this country I think, so tomorrow I'll follow tradition and say absolutely nothing (maybe). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Romey 1878 Posted June 21, 2016 Report Share Posted June 21, 2016 Excellent article. Out voters should really take a long hard look in the mirror on Thursday and think about who they're siding with imo. "The referendum campaign is a contest between competing values: between liberal internationalism and a pinched nationalism, between an open-trading system and marginalisation. This is why Britain’s allies, from Australia to Japan and the US, have unanimously supported Remain — and why Marine Le Pen and Donald Trump favour Brexit." If you still believe "out" is best then go for it; but don't complain about the consequences in this thread in ten years time because it'll be your fault. Anyway, campaigning normally stops twenty-four hours before an election in this country I think, so tomorrow I'll follow tradition and say absolutely nothing (maybe). Don't complain in 10 years if it's remain and we're being dictated to by the French and German's in this ever closer union . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeO Posted June 21, 2016 Report Share Posted June 21, 2016 Don't complain in 10 years if it's remain and we're being dictated to by the French and German's in this ever closer union . Closer union is no problem for me; France and Germany won't be dictating to us, we'll still have a veto anyway. Just watched the big Wembley debate on TV, thought remain won it by a mile (but I would wouldn't I). Boris Johnson=total buffoon, if we vote leave he'll be our next PM. Anyone wanting that needs sectioning. Matt 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
markjazzbassist Posted June 21, 2016 Report Share Posted June 21, 2016 Don't complain in 10 years if it's remain and we're being dictated to by the French and German's in this ever closer union . France? they surrender for everything. if you're being bossed by them, england needs a word with itself. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeO Posted June 21, 2016 Report Share Posted June 21, 2016 France? they surrender for everything. if you're being bossed by them, england needs a word with itself. American fantasy, google Napoleon and/or French resistance. They also helped you chuck us Brits out if the USA I seem to recall. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StevO Posted June 21, 2016 Report Share Posted June 21, 2016 England needs a word with itself anyway! I'm voting out, but I'd much rather this whole thing didn't happen. It's almost like a bloody civil war! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rubecula Posted June 21, 2016 Report Share Posted June 21, 2016 Not sure I agree with the word "Union" in regards to Europe. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
markjazzbassist Posted June 22, 2016 Report Share Posted June 22, 2016 American fantasy, google Napoleon and/or French resistance. They also helped you chuck us Brits out if the USA I seem to recall. I did Mike. Seems their surrenders have mostly been in the last 100 years with wwii being the obvious one. i didn't mean it seriously just in jest, Americans love to poke fun at the French. Which is kinda strange, shouldn't we make fun of the British since we usurped our masters? Nope, nothing but love for the Brits here, but the French are seen as wimpy . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeO Posted June 22, 2016 Report Share Posted June 22, 2016 I did Mike. Seems their surrenders have mostly been in the last 100 years with wwii being the obvious one. i didn't mean it seriously just in jest, Americans love to poke fun at the French. Which is kinda strange, shouldn't we make fun of the British since we usurped our masters? Nope, nothing but love for the Brits here, but the French are seen as wimpy . Even the WW2 thing is arguable, certainly a section of France rolled over (Vichy etc) but so did many other countries; and over here there was a significant amount of support for the German cause. Not saying we'd have allowed them to take over but many would happily have made peace with them, stayed out of it and let them do what they wanted on the mainland. Matt 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
holystove Posted June 22, 2016 Report Share Posted June 22, 2016 Even the WW2 thing is arguable, certainly a section of France rolled over (Vichy etc) but so did many other countries; and over here there was a significant amount of support for the German cause. Not saying we'd have allowed them to take over but many would happily have made peace with them, stayed out of it and let them do what they wanted on the mainland. There was an QI episode on France a couple of years ago (I believe you can watch it on youtube). Don't remember perfectly but I think Fry said that if you looked at battles lost vs won, France has (one of) the best armies in history. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
holystove Posted June 22, 2016 Report Share Posted June 22, 2016 Don't complain in 10 years if it's remain and we're being dictated to by the French and German's in this ever closer union . Unsuprisingly the UK has an opt-out on the ever closer union thingy. There is a German-French dominance in Europe, but IMO, that is because the UK opts out of everything. The UK should be a major player instead of opting out of everything. What's the expression? Shit or get of the pot? Well, the UK has been shitting on Europe for far too long so it's time to get of the pot . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johnh Posted June 22, 2016 Report Share Posted June 22, 2016 Unsuprisingly the UK has an opt-out on the ever closer union thingy. There is a German-French dominance in Europe, but IMO, that is because the UK opts out of everything. The UK should be a major player instead of opting out of everything. What's the expression? Shit or get of the pot? Well, the UK has been shitting on Europe for far too long so it's time to get of the pot . We get off tomorrow. holystove 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest rusty747 Posted June 22, 2016 Report Share Posted June 22, 2016 So where do you draw the line? Do you want independence for Wales? Independence for Anglesey? Independence for the village where you live? Each of those would gradually give you a bigger say in who "rules" you. We could go back thousands of years and all be run by village elders! As I've said before; think the future of the World, and a safer World for my kids and grandkids, is better served by moving in the other direction. Pulling up the drawbridge and saying "We're considerably richer than you" would be a big step backwards imo. I want to be governed by someone who I feel has my interess and the interests of UK at heart. Ceding power to EU removes that feeling, forever. Simple as that. Vote Leave. We may subsequently cock it up, but it will be our cock up and we will put it right. I think remaining leaves us exposed to the consequences of, and collateral damage from, other people's, far bigger cock ups! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rubecula Posted June 22, 2016 Report Share Posted June 22, 2016 One person who I can not remember the name of came up with a way to decide which way to vote: "Imagine the UK was actually not a member, and we now had the vote to join. Think of the condition that the EU is in. Would you vote to join or to stay out? This is how you should vote in the Brexit referendum." Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johnh Posted June 22, 2016 Report Share Posted June 22, 2016 There was an QI episode on France a couple of years ago (I believe you can watch it on youtube). Don't remember perfectly but I think Fry said that if you looked at battles lost vs won, France has (one of) the best armies in history. The problem is, that the battles France lost are all the very big ones. Retreat from Moscow, Waterloo, WW2. No one remembers the ones they won. The most successful army the French have had is the French Foreign Legion. Not many Frenchmen served in that! But having said that, there are only two countries in the EU with a decent army - France and the UK. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
holystove Posted June 22, 2016 Report Share Posted June 22, 2016 The problem is, that the battles France lost are all the very big ones. Retreat from Moscow, Waterloo, WW2. No one remembers the ones they won. The most successful army the French have had is the French Foreign Legion. Not many Frenchmen served in that! But having said that, there are only two countries in the EU with a decent army - France and the UK. After your post I was looking up which countries had the biggest armies (on wikipedia) and turns out Greece has an active military of over 140.000. By comparison Belgium, which actually has a bigger population that Greece, has only 30.000 active military personnel. By "decent" army, do you just mean total number, or also state of the art equipment etc? Because I noticed Germany and Italy both have bigger armies than the UK (if Wikipedia is to be believed). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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