Brexit...

[Lowensda]

Mike was just recreating a standard "fair" referendum where the outcome is already decided before the voting polls are open

[Matt]

Ok, thanks. Toys back in my pram again now!

 

I edited one of my previous posts to try to highlight what I believe is the biggest difference between the two camps.

 

I think everyone would agree that EU is not working and is in dire need of reform.

 

The remainers stance is that UK should remain to bring about that reform from within.

 

The leave campaign believes that reform is just not possible to a degree that would come anywhere near to addressing UK interests and that the only option is therefore to leave and take control of our own desiny again.

 

I have to agree with the leave position.

I don't think it's in as bad as shape as people who started the leave campaign make out, but there's certainly room for improvement. I also think that the UK should take on the responsibility of grabbing the scruff of the neck and leading the improvement. For that, we need a competent government to vote in competent representatives for us. It still rests with the people to make this change, starting with selecting a government which isn't more interesting in promoting childhood friends and lining their mates pockets .

 

no worries by the way, didn't mean to offend

Edited June 22, 2016 by Matt

[johnh]

 

Thought this was good:

 

 

The 'Leave' camp could equally come up with one which says: 'Vote leave because the EU will come up with a raft of changes we have been asking for and can then accept with another referendum'.

 

(By the way, who fiddled the poll?)

[Matt]

The 'Leave' camp could equally come up with one which says: 'Vote leave because the EU will come up with a raft of changes we have been asking for and can then accept with another referendum'.

 

(By the way, who fiddled the poll?)

Common sense

 

 

And if the EU do come up with a raft of changes, the UKs voice would've been part of that, so where's the issue?

Edited June 22, 2016 by Matt

[MikeO]

(By the way, who fiddled the poll?)

 

Briefly done as a joke John that I immediately owned up to; back to accurate now .

[Guest rusty747]

If we view the UK's relationship with EU like a marriage, is there scope for a 'trial separation?'

 

I know, it would never work, but it just highlights again that it is all or nothing for each camp. With the polls predicting a photo finish that is going to mean there will be a lot of unhappy campers from one side or the other come Friday morning.

 

I can hear the arguments from the losing camp now

 

'48% of the electorate didn't vote for this.'

 

'It was too close and we demand a recount'

 

'England voted xxx and Scotland voted yyy so it strengthens the case for breaking up the UK and letting each country vote again'

 

The only thing I am fairly sure of is that whatever the outcome, we are right, royally, fucked for a few years.

Edited June 22, 2016 by rusty747

[Matt]

Just a thought. Since there's no real plan on how to actually leave (at least none in any detail, even headline notes of timelines), and based on my experience of project management and analysis, I wonder if people know how long this will actually take to achieve, not to mention the actual cost?

 

My initial estimates are around 7-10 years to completely severe the "problem" ties with the EU and negotiate the compromises, costs will be in the billions of GBP for the amount of Man Days required and the caliber of the people required to implement the changes necessary. If anyone thinks that anything will change within the next decade, you better re-evaluate your expectations.

[Matt]

If we view the UK's relationship with EU like a marriage, is there scope for a 'trial separation?'

 

I know, it would never work, but it just highlights again that it is all or nothing for each camp. With the polls predicting a photo finish that is going to mean there will be a lot of unhappy campers from one side or the other come Friday morning.

 

I can hear the arguments from the losing camp now

 

'48% of the electorate didn't vote for this.'

 

'It was too close and we demand a recount'

 

'England voted xxx and Scotland voted yyy so it strengthens the case for disestablishing the UK'

 

The only thing I am fairly sure of is that whatever the outcome, we are right, royally, fucked for a few years.

Another thing to hate the Conservatives for - they've divided the country again.

[Guest rusty747]

Another thing to hate the Conservatives for - they've divided the country again.

 

I would have thought that they had actually united it on at least one issue.

 

I mean, who doesn't think that Cameron and Osborne are total twats?

Edited June 22, 2016 by rusty747

[MikeO]

If we view the UK's relationship with EU like a marriage, is there scope for a 'trial separation?'

 

I know, it would never work, but it just highlights again that it is all or nothing for each camp. With the polls predicting a photo finish that is going to mean there will be a lot of unhappy campers from one side or the other come Friday morning.

 

I can hear the arguments from the losing camp now

 

'48% of the electorate didn't vote for this.'

 

'It was too close and we demand a recount'

 

'England voted xxx and Scotland voted yyy so it strengthens the case for disestablishing the UK'

 

The only thing I am fairly sure of is that whatever the outcome, we are right, royally, fucked for a few years.

 

Agree with a lot of that; there's no doubt that given the fact that 30% (ish, guess) won't vote at all the vote will almost certainly be won by a minority of the eligible electorate. Nothing we can do about it though; result has to stand whichever way it goes.

[Bill]

"England can turn back on this road that it has led humanity down. It can turn away from Great Britain to become little England: small, weak, and white. But that has never been the dream of the English, or the British. It is not now the dream of any of Britain’s major political parties or leaders. It is only the dream of a few populist xenophobes, buoyed by a few small minded newspaper editors and owners of the Mail and the Sun."

 

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/ricken-patel/britains-greatness-is-why_b_10594066.html

 

Sure this won't change any minds but I'm just putting it out there.

 

Ha ha, Riken Patel director of Avaaz, the same people who 3 days ago put out that sick article. Using a woman's death to canvas for votes.

 

Is that completely unbiased or is it just as bad as the Mail and S#n.

[Matt]

I would have thought that they had actually united it on at least one issue.

 

I mean, who doesn't think that Cameron and Osborne are total twats?

On that topic, yep Throw Gove and Boris in to even things up

[MikeO]

I would have thought that they had actually united it on at least one issue.

 

I mean, who doesn't think that Cameron and Osborne are total twats?

 

Shame people didn't realise that pre May last year.

[MikeO]

Ha ha, Riken Patel director of Avaaz, the same people who 3 days ago put out that sick article. Using a woman's death to canvas for votes.

 

Is that completely unbiased or is it just as bad as the Mail and S#n.

 

They didn't use a woman's death to canvass for votes, they sent an email to their members. I put the article on here and I've apologised for it.

 

You suggest we should look at the Mail for "facts"; I post an article putting an opposing view (which I acknowledged would change no minds) and didn't suggest anyone should read it for facts.

 

It's a personal opinion from someone with no vested interest; not a corporate position like the Mail/S*n.

 

You can compare the two if you like but for me there's a world of difference.

[Matt]

Just a thought. Since there's no real plan on how to actually leave (at least none in any detail, even headline notes of timelines), and based on my experience of project management and analysis, I wonder if people know how long this will actually take to achieve, not to mention the actual cost?

 

My initial estimates are around 7-10 years to completely severe the "problem" ties with the EU and negotiate the compromises, costs will be in the billions of GBP for the amount of Man Days required and the caliber of the people required to implement the changes necessary. If anyone thinks that anything will change within the next decade, you better re-evaluate your expectations.

Thinking on this further, and I need Holystove's expertise here if he's about, but would us leaving the EU not have affects on ties / agreements / contracts / etc, with individual countries? If so, do all of these things not need to be reviewed with the respective governing bodies? If so, how many items need reviewing, how much is that going to cost to break / renegotiate deals, and how likely are the countries we have to deal with going to be willing? Thinking about that, you can stick another 10 years and move the cost brackets to the hundreds of billions.

[Guest rusty747]

Thinking on this further, and I need Holystove's expertise here if he's about, but would us leaving the EU not have affects on ties / agreements / contracts / etc, with individual countries? If so, do all of these things not need to be reviewed with the respective governing bodies? If so, how many items need reviewing, how much is that going to cost to break / renegotiate deals, and how likely are the countries we have to deal with going to be willing? Thinking about that, you can stick another 10 years and move the cost brackets to the hundreds of billions.

 

I have no great expertise in these matters (who does?) but my gut feeling is that quite a lot could be achieved quite quickly (1-3 years) but a few things would take considerably longer - 5-10 years.

 

All of this assumes that the House of Commons 'Remainers' dont play silly buggers with the required enabling bills by filibustering, using delaying tactics, points of order etc to deliberately throw a spanner in the works. I have already heard more than one MP say that there is a real possibility of this. I think that would be childish and achieve nothing but then I have too much common sense and maturity to be an MP.

 

My leave preference is no secret but if the vote is to remain we just have to accept it and make the best of it. I hope the remainers will take the same position if they lose.

Edited June 22, 2016 by rusty747

[Bill]

Mike, of course there is, I think you mentioned that it was sent out to Avaaz members, of which you took great glee in telling all that you where one of about 440 million or thereabout members.

So give me another reason why that was written, published, and issued to so many people if not to emotionally blackmail them into voting.

Edited June 22, 2016 by Bill

[Matt]

I have no great expertise in these matters (who does?) but my gut feeling is that quite a lot could be achieved quite quickly but a few things would take considerably longer.

 

All of this assumes that the House of Commons 'Remainers' dont play silly buggers by filibustering, using delaying tactics, points of order etc to deliberately throw a spanner in the works. I have already heard more than one MP say that there is a real possibility of this. I think that would be childish and achieve nothing but then I have too much common sense and maturity to be an MP.

 

My leave preference is no secret but if the vote is to remain we just have to accept it and make the best of it. I hope the remainers will take the same position if they lose.

I've got nearly 10 years of experience of rolling out incredibly simple (by comparison) projects and our time lines for a European rollout are 2-5 years.

 

If the Leave vote wins, I will never return to the UK for reasons I won't put out here because I respect nearly every poster here, even if you are all wrong

[Guest rusty747]

I've got nearly 10 years of experience of rolling out incredibly simple (by comparison) projects and our time lines for a European rollout are 2-5 years.

 

If the Leave vote wins, I will never return to the UK for reasons I won't put out here because I respect nearly every poster here, even if you are all wrong

Funny you should say that Matt.

 

If the Remain vote wins my thoughts are exactly the same!

 

But as I have a gorgeous Malaysian wife and baby and no close family left in UK it is not such a difficult decision for me!

 

Regardng rollout times for EU projects, is that not a great example of the red tape we wish to extract ourselves from?

Edited June 22, 2016 by rusty747

[markjazzbassist]

 

Shame people didn't realise that pre May last year.

 

LOL

[MikeO]

Mike, of course there is, I think you mentioned that it was sent out to Avaaz members, of which you took great glee in telling all that you where one of about 440 million or thereabout members.

So give me another reason why that was written, published, and issued to so many people if not to emotionally blackmail them into voting.

 

Now you're making stuff up, how is "of which I am one" gleeful ? And it's 44 million, not 440.

 

The email was sent to like-minded members of an international pressure group. All of us were already members; it wasn't sent to the British electorate.

 

The Mail is targeting the electorate as a corporate policy, along with other press outlets; if you can't see the difference then all well and good; you're going to vote how you like anyway (probably already have as you're on holiday), as am I.

 

This thread has been polite and respectful of all opinions from the start, don't bring it down mate.

[Matt]

Funny you should say that Matt.

 

If the Remain vote wins my thoughts are exactly the same!

 

But as I have a gorgeous Malaysian wife and baby and no close family left in UK it is not such a difficult decision for me!

 

Regardng rollout times for EU projects, is that not a great example of the red tape we wish to extract ourselves from?

 

If it wasn't for family and friends, I'd never go back as it is.

 

No, because you will have the same red tape, potentially more for any future deals, as well as the additional clusterfuck it will take to get us out over a 10+ year timeline - during which time the need for solidarity might be a hell of a lot more prominent than it is now.

[Lowensda]

Saw this....

 

Cadbury moved factory to Poland 2011 with EU grant.

Ford Transit moved to Turkey 2013 with EU grant.

Jaguar Land Rover has recently agreed to build a new plant in Slovakia with EU grant, owned by Tata, the same company who have trashed our steel works and emptied the workers pension funds.

Peugeot closed its Ryton (was Rootes Group) plant and moved production to Slovakia with EU grant.

British Army's new Ajax fighting vehicles to be built in SPAIN using SWEDISH steel at the request of the EU to support jobs in Spain with EU grant, rather than Wales.

Dyson gone to Malaysia, with an EU loan.

Crown Closures, Bournemouth (Was METAL BOX), gone to Poland with EU grant, once employed 1,200.

M&S manufacturing gone to far east with EU loan.

Hornby models gone. In fact all toys and models now gone from UK along with the patents all with with EU grants.

Gillette gone to eastern Europe with EU grant.

Texas Instruments Greenock gone to Germany with EU grant.

Indesit at Bodelwyddan Wales gone with EU grant.

Sekisui Alveo said production at its Merthyr Tydfil Industrial Park foam plant will relocate production to Roermond in the Netherlands, with EU funding.

Hoover Merthyr factory moved out of UK to Czech Republic and the Far East by Italian company Candy with EU backing.

ICI integration into Hollands AkzoNobel with EU bank loan and within days of the merger, several factories in the UK, were closed, eliminating 3,500 jobs

Boots sold to Italians Stefano Pessina who have based their HQ in Switzerland to avoid tax to the tune of £80 million a year, using an EU loan for the purchase.

JDS Uniphase run by two Dutch men, bought up companies in the UK with £20 million in EU 'regeneration' grants, created a pollution nightmare and just closed it all down leaving 1,200 out of work and an environmental clean-up paid for by the UK tax-payer. They also raided the pension fund and drained it dry.

UK airports are owned by a Spanish company.

Scottish Power is owned by a Spanish company.

Most London buses are run by Spanish and German companies.

The Hinkley Point C nuclear power station to be built by French company EDF, part owned by the French government, using cheap Chinese steel that has catastrophically failed in other nuclear installations. Now EDF say the costs will be double or more and it will be very late even if it does come online.

Swindon was once our producer of rail locomotives and rolling stock. Not any more, it's Bombardier in Derby and due to their losses in the aviation market, that could see the end of the British railways manufacturing altogether even though Bombardier had EU grants to keep Derby going which they diverted to their loss-making aviation side in Canada.

39% of British invention patents have been passed to foreign companies, many of them in the EU

The Mini cars that Cameron stood in front of as an example of British engineering, are built by BMW mostly in Holland and Austria. His campaign bus was made in Germany even though we have Plaxton, Optare, Bluebird, Dennis etc., in the UK. The bicycle for the Greens was made in the far east, not by Raleigh UK but then they are probably going to move to the Netherlands too as they have said recently.

 

Anyone who thinks the EU is good for British industry or any other business simply hasn't paid attention to what has been systematically asset-stripped from the UK. Name me one major technology company still running in the UK, I used to contract out to many, then the work just dried up as they were sold off to companies from France, Germany, Holland, Belgium, etc., and now we don't even teach electronic technology for technicians any more, due to EU regulations.

 

I haven't detailed our non-existent fishing industry the EU paid to destroy, nor the farmers being paid NOT to produce food they could sell for more than they get paid to do nothing, don't even go there.

I haven't mentioned what it costs us to be asset-stripped like this, nor have I mentioned immigration, nor the risk to our security if control of our armed forces is passed to Brussels or Germany.

[Matt]

Because the worlds economy has gone down the pan and people are looking for cheaper places to build, coincidently creating better wealth for the countries that the companies choose?

 

The EU doesn't force them to leave, they don't turn up to the board room and say "relocate or else" the company look to move, see the money savings and go for it. It's not rocket science! "hey, company! If you move to Hungary you can pay workers 20-50% less, get away with paying less benefits, still have the same quality of product (because you still have to manufacture to the EU standards) saving billions a year whilst helping vitalise a poorer area and creating opportunities which is great PR! If you agree we'll help you relocate because its better for the greater good. What a load of nonsense...

[MikeO]

Point is though J that someone else (with far more knowledge than me, there are people out there despite rumours to the contrary) could come up with an equally long list of where the reverse is true. It's a free market; if we leave are we going to get all upset if a company moves from Reading to Swindon because it's better for them economically? Borders are geographical accidents, be they national or local.

[Romey 1878]

I would hope the EU would give grants to companies to move to the UK to try and help our industry when it's on its knees due to these companies leaving.

 

Is that a flying pig I see?

[Matt]

I would hope the EU would give grants to companies to move to the UK to try and help our industry when it's on its knees due to these companies leaving.

 

Is that a flying pig I see?

they do

[Romey 1878]

they do

[Matt]

whats funny?

[MikeO]

they do

 

Unquestionably.