General Election/UK Politics

[pete0]

1 hour ago, Formby said:

It's very relevant.

In Northern Ireland, the British Government (Labour and Conservative) was complicit in the sectarian murders of its own citizens. Tory austerity cuts fall well short of this - unless you have access to government papers to the contrary.

Still don't see how that's relevant. How is starving children and cutting national health services now fine because of other failings in the past. Further you're using a religious conflict closer to war in comparison to what is simply a I house policy that has no basis. What positives have 15 years of austerity brought to justify the premature deaths of 100,000+? . Which is more than the those lost during the troubles but only a scumbag would try and go down the route of comparing the needless deaths so I'll not walk any further down that path. 

The pluses and minuses comment about veganism avoids the central issue of animal welfare and the eating of meat. I feel as strongly about it as you do about the Tory Govt / austerity cuts. I don't go calling people who eat meat morons and scumbags.

Very one minded of you to assume I know what you consider to be the central issue. You never mentioned that the issues were animal welfare and eating meat (agree on the first but not the second) hence me covering all bases. Any how I find it saddening that you feel more about animals being food than the fact this Government is starving kids. Personally I don't agree with battery farms but given a choice I'd rather no child went hungry. 

One of the most egregious examples of state crime was the war in Iraq - sanctioned by Labour. Governments are guilty of lots of things and should rightly be held to account.  

And you're bringing this up in relation to what? 

 

[Chach]

1 hour ago, Palfy said:

Chach please stop talking in riddles you said the best argument against democracy was this thread, you said it in away as to blame us for conservatives removing themselves from the thread, but seem to absolve yourself from any responsibility of what happens on this thread, that is why I said you are a part of the problem, because you are one of the main contributors to the thread, but you don’t see it that way because you consider yourself to be more knowledgeable than the man stood next to you who has a different view and different way of expressing his views. 
Now I come from a background were a spade is called a spade, I think you like to say a lot and preach to people, but like all good politicians you talk well but say nothing of any worth. 
Now if this place offends or affects you so much you have a choice like all of us not to participate. 
I have looked at when all the political threads started on this forum the first being Brexit in 2016 and the other 4 or 5 after, this as I said before is meant to be a forum for Everton supporters to discuss Everton FC topics, John struck a chord with me when he said this place had gone down hill since the Brexit thread opened, and he is probably right, the mods should consider closing political threads and getting back to the basics of what this forum was designed for. 
And for people like yourself Chach who cannot live without there daily in take of political I know better than you, there are plenty of place you can indulge yourself but for all of us should it be here?

You're not saying anything that bothers or offends me Palfy. Telling me I don't have to participate if I don't like it is not an argument or any kind of meaningful contribution to the discussion and don't make me responsible for the way my posts make you feel I have never attacked you personally, the way you do me.

You've typed out paragraphs there and barely made an argument other than you don't like my style which is also not an argument. If you don't think there's any substance take some of your own advice stop fucking replying.

Close the politics threads? Don't be so fucking ridiculous.

 

[Formby]

59 minutes ago, pete0 said:

t's very relevant.

In Northern Ireland, the British Government (Labour and Conservative) was complicit in the sectarian murders of its own citizens. Tory austerity cuts fall well short of this - unless you have access to government papers to the contrary.

Still don't see how that's relevant. How is starving children and cutting national health services now fine because of other failings in the past. Further you're using a religious conflict closer to war in comparison to what is simply a I house policy that has no basis. What positives have 15 years of austerity brought to justify the premature deaths of 100,000+? . Which is more than the those lost during the troubles but only a scumbag would try and go down the route of comparing the needless deaths so I'll not walk any further down that path. 

The pluses and minuses comment about veganism avoids the central issue of animal welfare and the eating of meat. I feel as strongly about it as you do about the Tory Govt / austerity cuts. I don't go calling people who eat meat morons and scumbags.

Very one minded of you to assume I know what you consider to be the central issue. You never mentioned that the issues were animal welfare and eating meat (agree on the first but not the second) hence me covering all bases. Any how I find it saddening that you feel more about animals being food than the fact this Government is starving kids. Personally I don't agree with battery farms but given a choice I'd rather no child went hungry. 

One of the most egregious examples of state crime was the war in Iraq - sanctioned by Labour. Governments are guilty of lots of things and should rightly be held to account.  

And you're bringing this up in relation to what? 

I think the relevance is abundantly clear - there have been examples in the past when the British state has been complicit in the murder of its own citizens. I do not think Tory austerity cuts (however loathsome) amount to this (certainly the legal definition or murder). You may have seen documents to the contrary; I have not.

I am not a Tory and have never voted for them, so you're directing your questions at the wrong person. I disagreed with austerity.

I believe it was you who compared Tories to Nazis in this thread, so the point about going 'down the route' is hypocritical.

I don't believe you covered any bases. If you wish to open a separate thread on animal rights, happy to engage and debate.

The point about the Iraq War (and NI) is that Labour (as well as the Conservatives) have been complicit in war crimes. It's across the political spectrum, not just Tories. 

[Palfy]

39 minutes ago, Chach said:

You're not saying anything that bothers or offends me Palfy. Telling me I don't have to participate if I don't like it is not an argument or any kind of meaningful contribution to the discussion and don't make me responsible for the way my posts make you feel I have never attacked you personally, the way you do me.

You've typed out paragraphs there and barely made an argument other than you don't like my style which is also not an argument. If you don't think there's any substance take some of your own advice stop fucking replying.

Close the politics threads? Don't be so fucking ridiculous.

 

Well there you go Chach you are what you accuse others of, I’m not trying to offend you mate that’s why I haven’t used any offensive remarks towards you, and why you don’t feel offended. 
But you’re style is to attack others that don’t agree with you, yet complain when other’s do the same to you. 
I think it should be closed because all it’s doing is breeding a lot of whiners and whinging, and you contribute to that. 
If you are going to give it at least be prepared to take it, and remember in life we are not all the same and you are no better than anyone else on this forum. 
So to write that we at least got rid off the last conservatives fellas so wank on, is not the truth and if you genuinely believe that was the objective, then what does that say about you as a person, that you would still want to engage with people like that. 
I think it is only right that you name the people you believe have been guilty of wanking because they’ve forced or caused conservatives to leave?

And why is it so ridiculous to close the political threads on a football forum, bar you having nothing else to contribute on here, like I said there are numerous site’s were you can go and engage your need to talk politics, and you never know you might find more people who are interested in what you have to say, and you might find that more engaging. 
Don’t take it personally please it’s just a thought. 

[Chach]

16 minutes ago, Palfy said:

Well there you go Chach you are what you accuse others of, I’m not trying to offend you mate that’s why I haven’t used any offensive remarks towards you, and why you don’t feel offended. 
But you’re style is to attack others that don’t agree with you, yet complain when other’s do the same to you. 
I think it should be closed because all it’s doing is breeding a lot of whiners and whinging, and you contribute to that. 
If you are going to give it at least be prepared to take it, and remember in life we are not all the same and you are no better than anyone else on this forum. 
So to write that we at least got rid off the last conservatives fellas so wank on, is not the truth and if you genuinely believe that was the objective, then what does that say about you as a person, that you would still want to engage with people like that. 
I think it is only right that you name the people you believe have been guilty of wanking because they’ve forced or caused conservatives to leave?

And why is it so ridiculous to close the political threads on a football forum, bar you having nothing else to contribute on here, like I said there are numerous site’s were you can go and engage your need to talk politics, and you never know you might find more people who are interested in what you have to say, and you might find that more engaging. 
Don’t take it personally please it’s just a thought. 

My style is to attack your political arguments when I disagree with them Palfy, you might take it personally it's perfect natural but it still doesn't make it a personal attack.

I think one of the main problems here is your inclination to take comments literally rather than figuratively, a political circle jerk is a slang term for people in a political echo chamber who only like to have their opinions repeated back to them it is not literally people wanking, same if someone paraphrases a famous quote about "best argument against democracy" it's just a rhetorical device, not an empirical truth.

Let me know if you required any further clarification with "riddles" above.

 

[pete0]

59 minutes ago, Formby said:

I think the relevance is abundantly clear - there have been examples in the past when the British state has been complicit in the murder of its own citizens. I do not think Tory austerity cuts (however loathsome) amount to this (certainly the legal definition or murder). You may have seen documents to the contrary; I have not.

If it was clear I wouldn't have to ask. 

Are you don't beleive the cuts have led to people dying, or that they have but you don't believe it meets the lawful definition of murder? 

Why do you keep bringing up documents? There's loads of their showing austerity has caused deaths. Do you think it hasn't? Just look at our death toll compared to the rest of the EU during the pandemic. 

I am not a Tory and have never voted for them, so you're directing your questions at the wrong person. I disagreed with austerity.

*scoffs* it's abundantly clear why I'm asking, you said they aren't all morons/scumbags. I've then asked why she even laid it out emphasising why I think they're one or the other. How've you struggled to follow that? 

I believe it was you who compared Tories to Nazis in this thread, so the point about going 'down the route' is hypocritical.

No idea how this is relevant. Any how stand by it. Gave a clear reasoning why. Propaganda, racism etc.

Fuck it, can't believe I'm asking this. Why is any death caused by the troubles worse than any death caused by austerity? Why did you think it necessary to bring it into the conversation? 

I don't believe you covered any bases. If you wish to open a separate thread on animal rights, happy to engage and debate.

I said plants are living things (which covers the you shouldn't eat animals) and I mentioned environmental. There's possibly already a thread. 

The point about the Iraq War (and NI) is that Labour (as well as the Conservatives) have been complicit in war crimes. It's across the political spectrum, not just Tories. 

Still don't see how that's relevant. My argument is this Government needs holding to account. 

 

[Palfy]

1 hour ago, Chach said:

think one of the main problems here is your inclination to take comments literally rather than figuratively, a political circle jerk is a slang term for people in a political echo chamber who only like to have their opinions repeated back to them it is not literally people wanking, same if someone paraphrases a famous quote about "best argument against democracy" it's just a rhetorical device, not an empirical truth.

We could switch that and say the main problem here is you don’t say what you mean, and find it hard to deal with people who do, hence why Pete gets to you so much. 
Your wanking jibe was not said in the context of what you are saying now, that is clear for all to see, I can’t find any other conclusions to what you meant other than you believe some on here have run the conservatives off the forum and are now wanking in some form of sexual gratification for doing so. 
For me that isn’t an attack on someone’s political beliefs that’s a personal attack on someone’s character, but of course I’m wrong because you don’t do that. 

[Formby]

5 hours ago, pete0 said:

 

Not sure if you're being deliberately abstruse. We appear to be going round in circles.

To simplify: austerity has been bad for the country - it has resulted in deaths and a lot of hardship. Like many people, I disagreed with it. As I mentioned in a previous post, governments should rightly be held to account. This government should be held to account (on austerity, the pandemic, anything you want to throw at them if you think there is a case to answer).

I think their policy was misguided and reflected a party out of touch and uncaring.

I do not think this was the same as the Nazi war machine committing genocide, though, nor do I think it shows Government complicity in murder (as happened in Northern Ireland) or war crimes (Gulf War). You obviously feel differently and that is your right.

Saying that I don't believe 50% of the population to be scumbags or morons, just because you think so, does not make me any particular political persuasion. I have never ever voted Tory. Very hard to reconcile veganism / animal rights and welfare with a party that supported fox hunting and wanted to bring it back. Ditto, their policies on sustainability and the environment. 

[pete0]

1 hour ago, Formby said:

Not sure if you're being deliberately abstruse. We appear to be going round in circles.

To simplify: austerity has been bad for the country - it has resulted in deaths and a lot of hardship. Like many people, I disagreed with it. As I mentioned in a previous post, governments should rightly be held to account. This government should be held to account (on austerity, the pandemic, anything you want to throw at them if you think there is a case to answer).

I think their policy was misguided and reflected a party out of touch and uncaring.

I do not think this was the same as the Nazi war machine committing genocide, though, nor do I think it shows Government complicity in murder (as happened in Northern Ireland) or war crimes (Gulf War). You obviously feel differently and that is your right.

Saying that I don't believe 50% of the population to be scumbags or morons, just because you think so, does not make me any particular political persuasion. I have never ever voted Tory. Very hard to reconcile veganism / animal rights and welfare with a party that supported fox hunting and wanted to bring it back. Ditto, their policies on sustainability and the environment. 

We're going in circles as you're not addressing what your reasoning is that tories and their voters aren't scumbags or morons. I'll make this as simple as possible. 

I agree they are uncaring but to merely say they were misguided is far off the mark. It's been 15 years so at some point they would have realised the policy was misguided and took action. But I highly doubt that to be the case given they have said stuff like they were too soft with austerity. 

Again. Anyone voting for them knew that they were doing so at the cost of the NHS and human lives. In return for this they were getting to kick the foreigners out and cause misery on the working class, vulnerable and disabled people here. Scumbag seems fairly light all things considered. 

So given the above. What tory policies were there that outweighed the fact voting for the Conservatives was gonna inflict misery and cut short lives. 

 

[pete0]

https://uk.news.yahoo.com/matt-hancock-rosena-allin-khan-154514813.html

 

[Formby]

2 hours ago, pete0 said:

We're going in circles as you're not addressing what your reasoning is that tories and their voters aren't scumbags or morons. I'll make this as simple as possible. 

I agree they are uncaring but to merely say they were misguided is far off the mark. It's been 15 years so at some point they would have realised the policy was misguided and took action. But I highly doubt that to be the case given they have said stuff like they were too soft with austerity. 

Again. Anyone voting for them knew that they were doing so at the cost of the NHS and human lives. In return for this they were getting to kick the foreigners out and cause misery on the working class, vulnerable and disabled people here. Scumbag seems fairly light all things considered. 

So given the above. What tory policies were there that outweighed the fact voting for the Conservatives was gonna inflict misery and cut short lives. 

 

Thank you for making it as simple as possible. We do indeed to be at cross purposes. I am talking about you comparing Tory austerity to Nazism and you are asking me to justify why I don't think half the population are scumbags and morons.

To answer your question first. I like to give people the benefit of the doubt and engage in positive discourse - there are those I vehemently disagree with over a whole range of issues, but who are very far from being morons and scumbags. Amongst this fraternity are people of varying religious persuasions, political persuasions, those with a social axe to grind, and those with none. I believe they extend the same largesse and courtesy to me when I speak to them. We debate, we talk, we disagree, we agree. I understand that people vote Tory for many different reasons and amongst them may have been those who warned about austerity, just as there may have been amongst them 'scumbags and morons' who actively pursued the policy with little regard for the consequences. To say that everyone who votes Tory is a 'scumbag and a moron', however, is not born out in my experience. With you it maybe, I guess. What I am pretty sure about is that 50% of the population are not morons and scumbags. It is dismissive and reductive and the worst kind of pigeon-holing. As I don't vote Tory, it would be wrong of me to hazard what policies they had that outweighed the misery austerity was going to inflict, so I can't really answer that.

My question to you was a simple one, I thought. Namely, does this wretched austerity that has inflicted misery and cut short lives fall short of the Nazi's genocide campaign and Government complicity in murders in NI or the war crimes of the Gulf war. I would say it does.    

[Romey 1878]

10 hours ago, pete0 said:

https://uk.news.yahoo.com/matt-hancock-rosena-allin-khan-154514813.html

 

He should just remove the Han from his second name. 

[pete0]

51 minutes ago, Formby said:

Thank you for making it as simple as possible. We do indeed to be at cross purposes. I am talking about you comparing Tory austerity to Nazism and you are asking me to justify why I don't think half the population are scumbags and morons.

You only brought that point up in your last post as you continued to just post drivel with no context 

To answer your question first. I like to give people the benefit of the doubt and engage in positive discourse - there are those I vehemently disagree with over a whole range of issues, but who are very far from being morons and scumbags. Amongst this fraternity are people of varying religious persuasions, political persuasions, those with a social axe to grind, and those with none. I believe they extend the same largesse and courtesy to me when I speak to them. We debate, we talk, we disagree, we agree. I understand that people vote Tory for many different reasons and amongst them may have been those who warned about austerity, just as there may have been amongst them 'scumbags and morons' who actively pursued the policy with little regard for the consequences. To say that everyone who votes Tory is a 'scumbag and a moron', however, is not born out in my experience. With you it maybe, I guess. What I am pretty sure about is that 50% of the population are not morons and scumbags. It is dismissive and reductive and the worst kind of pigeon-holing. As I don't vote Tory, it would be wrong of me to hazard what policies they had that outweighed the misery austerity was going to inflict, so I can't really answer that.

Seriously what the fuck is this. You've absolutely wasted my time (I know it's my own fault for engaging with you), I've asked you countless times for why you disagree and the closest thing you get to answering that is that it would be wrong for you to hazard what policies. So you don't know what policies outweigh the 100,000+ deaths caused, ie. you've got absolutely no reasoning to why their voters are morons/scumbags. 

My question to you was a simple one, I thought. Namely, does this wretched austerity that has inflicted misery and cut short lives fall short of the Nazi's genocide campaign and Government complicity in murders in NI or the war crimes of the Gulf war. I would say it does.  

When have you asked me this? Seriously you must have half these conversations in your own head. I know I'm not the clearest at times but you've really taken the piss today. 

 

[pete0]

 

[Chach]

On 05/05/2020 at 23:11, Palfy said:

We could switch that and say the main problem here is you don’t say what you mean, and find it hard to deal with people who do, hence why Pete gets to you so much. 
Your wanking jibe was not said in the context of what you are saying now, that is clear for all to see, I can’t find any other conclusions to what you meant other than you believe some on here have run the conservatives off the forum and are now wanking in some form of sexual gratification for doing so. 
For me that isn’t an attack on someone’s political beliefs that’s a personal attack on someone’s character, but of course I’m wrong because you don’t do that. 

Well we'll have to agree to disagree I think the the context was perfectly clear, but I do agree that I was saying the left/liberal members of this forum pile on the few conservatives who post on here in a dishonest way. Making extreme strawmans of their arguments when they even bother to address the actual argument. This is a demonstrable fact.

Nobody on these forums "gets to me" at all, particularly people that aren't even liberal and who don't see other members of society as their political equals. Those people are the reasons that democracies fail and become autocratic and all side of politics should censure them even when it's not convenient. 

 

[pete0]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-52569364?fbclid=IwAR2vt510Ww5Cjqk1dS29Q7UzB_j0FpNlbSnw3PApRwJrzoPOxAOgCOFoaFk

No words. 

[pete0]

[pete0]

https://www.theneweuropean.co.uk/top-stories/led-by-donkeys-boris-johnson-coronavirus-campaign-1-6642198

 

[Palfy]

37 minutes ago, pete0 said:

https://www.theneweuropean.co.uk/top-stories/led-by-donkeys-boris-johnson-coronavirus-campaign-1-6642198

 

I said a few weeks ago he was more akin to Chamberlain than Churchill, after RPG was big in him up as some Churchillian figure head who was going to steer this country to safety and greatness. 
It would appear the reality is a lot different to the rhetoric Boris fucked up and RPG fucked off. 

[pete0]

26 minutes ago, Palfy said:

I said a few weeks ago he was more akin to Chamberlain than Churchill, after RPG was big in him up as some Churchillian figure head who was going to steer this country to safety and greatness. 
It would appear the reality is a lot different to the rhetoric Boris fucked up and RPG fucked off. 

Found it a disgrace that he used Churchill as his avatar. Genuinely thought he was a torybot second time round. 

I find it mad that BJ is still in office. Herd immunity was a disaster and I wouldn't be surprised if kids 50 years from now are taught about him in history alongside Hitler and Mao. 

I don't know enough about politics but surely there's some way to remove him; he's personally responsible for the death of 1000s.

[pete0]

https://inews.co.uk/news/health/coronavirus-ppe-nhs-england-policy-procurement-hospital-chief-executive-2846792?fbclid=IwAR3zWD8h4SdcBsAm5yCX_Y3ATbg-qG50K69DFAznpV4GjQEGTXIjYH7kIWY

[pete0]

 

[johnh]

On 08/05/2020 at 14:44, pete0 said:

Found it a disgrace that he used Churchill as his avatar. Genuinely thought he was a torybot second time round. 

I find it mad that BJ is still in office. Herd immunity was a disaster and I wouldn't be surprised if kids 50 years from now are taught about him in history alongside Hitler and Mao. 

I don't know enough about politics but surely there's some way to remove him; he's personally responsible for the death of 1000s.

History reckons that Mao was responsible for 40+ million deaths,  Stalin and Hitler 20+ million each.  Don't think Boris is in that category.  I hope you are not too distraught if the death rate from the virus falls.  Most of us will be delighted.

[pete0]

Just now, johnh said:

History reckons that Mao was responsible for 40+ million deaths,  Stalin and Hitler 20+ million each.  Don't think Boris is in that category.  I hope you are not too distraught if the death rate from the virus falls.  Most of us will be delighted.

Don't see how a death toll is relevant. I'm distraught that people are starving to death in the 21st century. How many people are you happy to starve to death before you think it's wrong? 

It'd be a miracle if the death rate falls completely. But the government is actively pursuing a plan that will kill more. How can you defend them? 

As for the bit in bold I hope it made you feel better for a second, that said I hope the following second you realised you're projecting bollocks and then actually gave a thought to the people in this country who have already died needlessly and without those who love them around them. 

[MikeO]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-52653609

[pete0]

Nah, they'll be shouting get back to work as they twist isolation being lazy people. Horrible cunts the lot of them. 

[Romey 1878]

2 hours ago, pete0 said:

Nah, they'll be shouting get back to work as they twist isolation being lazy people. Horrible cunts the lot of them. 

They've got to get their nanny's back to work so they no longer have to deal with their own children.

[johnh]

15 hours ago, pete0 said:

Don't see how a death toll is relevant. I'm distraught that people are starving to death in the 21st century. How many people are you happy to starve to death before you think it's wrong? 

It'd be a miracle if the death rate falls completely. But the government is actively pursuing a plan that will kill more. How can you defend them? 

As for the bit in bold I hope it made you feel better for a second, that said I hope the following second you realised you're projecting bollocks and then actually gave a thought to the people in this country who have already died needlessly and without those who love them around them. 

China have got a lot to answer for.

[pete0]

46 minutes ago, johnh said:

China have got a lot to answer for.

So does the conservative government. How many lives before you think it's not okay what they're doing? 

As for blaming China that's very xenophobic to the point you could even be mistaken for quoting Donald Trump. Would you say the same of any other virus? 

Any how your answer to how you can defend Conservatives seems to be it's china's fault... So even if we do blame China for starting it (and we'd lose people because of it). If you look at the rest of the world are reaction has not only caused more deaths it's encouraged them. Look at Japan who are closer to China, has twice our population and a higher proportion who are high risk. So at the very worst I'd expect our loses to be half of theirs, yet we've lost twice as many as them, 4 times the expectated worst case scenario. So if you do truly blame China you'd be blaming them for 7,500 people. That still leaves blood on the hands of every tory for the other 25,000 and counting. 

Speaking of death tolls you've not addressed how the death toll between all the murderers is relevant? 

[Palfy]

6 hours ago, pete0 said:

Nah, they'll be shouting get back to work as they twist isolation being lazy people. Horrible cunts the lot of them. 

That’s so justifiable, I’d be out there booing them.