MikeO Posted July 5, 2020 Report Share Posted July 5, 2020 1 hour ago, pete0 said: Extract of speech by Bevan on 3 July 1948 at the Bellevue Hotel, on eve of the entry into force of the National Health Service. "That is why no amount of cajolery, and no attempts at ethical or social seduction, can eradicate from my heart a deep burning hatred for the Tory Party that inflicted those bitter experiences on me. So far as I am concerned they are lower than vermin. They condemned millions of first-class people to semi-starvation. Now the Tories are pouring out money in propaganda of all sorts and are hoping by this organised sustained mass suggestion to eradicate from our minds all memory of what we went through. But, I warn you young men and women, do not listen to what they are saying now. Do not listen to the seductions of Lord Woolton. He is a very good salesman. If you are selling shoddy stuff you have to be a good salesman. But I warn you they have not changed, or if they have they are slightly worse than they were." Mind you, that said the BMA and 9/10 doctors were against it too! "Once Bevan had published his Bill on the health service in 1946, one former chairman of the BMA described Bevan's proposals in the following terms: "I have examined the Bill and it looks to me uncommonly like the first step, and a big one, to national socialism as practised in Germany.The medical service there was early put under the dictatorship of a "medical fuhrer" The Bill will establish the minister for health in that capacity." Comparing a politician to Hitler (in 1946!!) shows how strongly the BMA felt about the issue and how widespread opposition was from Doctors: Between 1946 and its introduction in 1948, the British Medical Association (BMA) mounted a vigorous campaign against this proposed legislation. In one survey of doctors carried out in 1948, the BMA claimed that only 4,734 doctors out of the 45,148 polled, were in favour of a National Health Service." How times change (apart from the Tories). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pete0 Posted July 5, 2020 Report Share Posted July 5, 2020 33 minutes ago, MikeO said: How times change (apart from the Tories). It's scary that Bevan's words could very easily have been stated today. How have people not learned anything in 70 years. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt Posted July 6, 2020 Report Share Posted July 6, 2020 So Churchill didn’t make that statement, the BMA did. This is why Twitter is not to be trusted as an information source Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pete0 Posted July 6, 2020 Report Share Posted July 6, 2020 41 minutes ago, Matt said: So Churchill didn’t make that statement, the BMA did. This is why Twitter is not to be trusted as an information source This article is were the tweet is from and has both quoted. http://www.westendatwar.org.uk/page/what_resistance_was_there_to_the_formation_of_the_nhs Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bailey Posted July 7, 2020 Report Share Posted July 7, 2020 Just to offer a bit of balance... https://winstonchurchill.org/resources/churchill-archive/notes-for-churchills-speech-to-the-royal-college-of-physicians/ https://www.bmj.com/rapid-response/2011/10/31/without-winston-churchill-nhs-would-not-exist https://www.bbc.co.uk/teach/how-did-britain-build-the-nhs/zvhmkmn https://commonslibrary.parliament.uk/home-affairs/the-most-civilised-thing-in-the-world-the-political-foundations-of-the-nhs/ It would be fair to say Churchill and the Tory party were key to the NHS coming into existence. Tweets like that are misleading and just fuel class or political hatred. Edit: One more from the Lib Dems of all people! https://www.libdemvoice.org/setting-the-record-straight-labour-and-the-nhs-15930.html Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pete0 Posted July 7, 2020 Report Share Posted July 7, 2020 1 hour ago, Bailey said: It would be fair to say Churchill and the Tory party were key to the NHS coming into existence. Tweets like that are misleading and just fuel class or political hatred. He/they voted it down many times before eventually crumbling to pressure. I wouldn't call that being key. What's misleading about it? https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/jeremy-hunt-nhs-creation-tories-health-minister-ridiculed-a7980536.html%3famp Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bailey Posted July 8, 2020 Report Share Posted July 8, 2020 14 hours ago, pete0 said: He/they voted it down many times before eventually crumbling to pressure. I wouldn't call that being key. What's misleading about it? https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/jeremy-hunt-nhs-creation-tories-health-minister-ridiculed-a7980536.html%3famp Many bills are voted down because they don't like the way it is presented. It doesn't mean they disagree with the principle. The whole tweet is misleading because it suggests Churchill was against the concept, when in reality, and as with many doctors, it was the detail of the plan they didn't agree with. Ironically it would appear that was because it was partly down to the funding model and its hard to argue that they were wrong on that point! Furthermore I fear that the quote given is fabricated. The only places I can find it on the page you have linked and various other tweets or social media posts / websites. I cannot find a credible source to back up that quote. It would actually therefore be a complete lie, and I suspect it probably is without further evidence to the contrary. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pete0 Posted July 8, 2020 Report Share Posted July 8, 2020 29 minutes ago, Bailey said: Many bills are voted down because they don't like the way it is presented. It doesn't mean they disagree with the principle. The whole tweet is misleading because it suggests Churchill was against the concept, when in reality, and as with many doctors, it was the detail of the plan they didn't agree with. Ironically it would appear that was because it was partly down to the funding model and its hard to argue that they were wrong on that point! Furthermore I fear that the quote given is fabricated. The only places I can find it on the page you have linked and various other tweets or social media posts / websites. I cannot find a credible source to back up that quote. It would actually therefore be a complete lie, and I suspect it probably is without further evidence to the contrary. The Tories will argue that they supported a national health service, just not Labour’s NHS. But their objections to Bevan’s bill were telling. The Conservative Party preferred a health service that wasn’t centralised, in which doctors, nurses and staff weren’t employed, which continued to rely on charity-run hospitals and in which free provision was scarce. In other words, they opposed all those parts of the NHS that made it so popular. https://tribunemag.co.uk/2019/11/the-tories-war-on-the-nhs As far as I can see the tory funding model was to rely on charity (and doctors opposed as they were thinking about their pockets). So that's a pretty significant point. What exactly is misleading? They did vote it down, and the sheer amount shows they more than opposed the way it was presented. Tory idealism goes against it from an economic stand too. You believe the quote is fake based from what? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bailey Posted July 8, 2020 Report Share Posted July 8, 2020 The quote appears fake because there is no evidence of it... anywhere bar other similar sites. There appears no archive of it or reference to when / where it was said. Yes they voted it down but there is no detail as to why. Its not that all parties didn't agree the NHS was required. They had all done that during the war and before Labour were in power. If there were oppositions, it wasnt because they didn't want it. It was because there was a lot of challenges from doctors, charities, churches and local authorities. There was also opposition within the Laboor Party. Ultimately changes were made and the bill passed. It is after all the whole point of Parliament. These tweets just perpetuate a myth that the Labour Party have been dining on for 72 years. https://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/cabinetpapers/alevelstudies/origins-nhs.htm https://www.conservativehome.com/highlights/2018/01/profile-henry-willink-the-conservative-who-proposed-a-national-health-service-before-bevan-created-one.html Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pete0 Posted July 8, 2020 Report Share Posted July 8, 2020 MikeO 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pete0 Posted July 8, 2020 Report Share Posted July 8, 2020 1 hour ago, Bailey said: The quote appears fake because there is no evidence of it... anywhere bar other similar sites. There appears no archive of it or reference to when / where it was said. Yes they voted it down but there is no detail as to why. Its not that all parties didn't agree the NHS was required. They had all done that during the war and before Labour were in power. If there were oppositions, it wasnt because they didn't want it. It was because there was a lot of challenges from doctors, charities, churches and local authorities. There was also opposition within the Laboor Party. Ultimately changes were made and the bill passed. It is after all the whole point of Parliament. These tweets just perpetuate a myth that the Labour Party have been dining on for 72 years. https://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/cabinetpapers/alevelstudies/origins-nhs.htm https://www.conservativehome.com/highlights/2018/01/profile-henry-willink-the-conservative-who-proposed-a-national-health-service-before-bevan-created-one.html Do you have any thing to the contrary? Do you have any reason other than you guessing? I put the reasons they opposed in my last post (copied again below). So what is it that makes you think it's a myth Labour were responsible for the formation of the NHS? What evidence is there that the tories wanted a similar model to what we ended up with? The Tories will argue that they supported a national health service, just not Labour’s NHS. But their objections to Bevan’s bill were telling. The Conservative Party preferred a health service that wasn’t centralised, in which doctors, nurses and staff weren’t employed, which continued to rely on charity-run hospitals and in which free provision was scarce. In other words, they opposed all those parts of the NHS that made it so popular. https://tribunemag.co.uk/2019/11/the-tories-war-on-the-nhs Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bailey Posted July 9, 2020 Report Share Posted July 9, 2020 22 hours ago, pete0 said: Do you have any thing to the contrary? Do you have any reason other than you guessing? I put the reasons they opposed in my last post (copied again below). So what is it that makes you think it's a myth Labour were responsible for the formation of the NHS? What evidence is there that the tories wanted a similar model to what we ended up with? The Tories will argue that they supported a national health service, just not Labour’s NHS. But their objections to Bevan’s bill were telling. The Conservative Party preferred a health service that wasn’t centralised, in which doctors, nurses and staff weren’t employed, which continued to rely on charity-run hospitals and in which free provision was scarce. In other words, they opposed all those parts of the NHS that made it so popular. https://tribunemag.co.uk/2019/11/the-tories-war-on-the-nhs There have been various comments in the articles posted. There is also mention in this one. https://www.davidwarburton.org.uk/news/nhs Party of the amendments posted and oppositions of various members of all sides of the house have led us to the system we have now. The initial proposal was to bring everything under government control and quite rightly that idea was opposed. If it wasnt for the amendments you wouldn't have the choice of getting private treatment. The original Labour plan would have had significant negative consequences for all of the good it was trying to achieve. Think of the extra cost, the negative effect on the incentive to become a medical professional in this country. This is the reason you have parliament and the reason why you need a competent opposition. Something we finally have again now. It also hasn't gone unnoticed that you appear to have side stepped the original tweet. It is clearly misleading and includes what appears to be a made up quote. Likewise you have also not removed your posting of a website which attributes quotes to Churchill that were made by the BMA and is again clearly written with the intent to mislead. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bailey Posted July 9, 2020 Report Share Posted July 9, 2020 Oh and btw this article which I have already provided actually posts what was put in each party's manifesto. https://www.libdemvoice.org/setting-the-record-straight-labour-and-the-nhs-15930.html Its fairly clear that the Tory manifesto pledge was the closest thing to the current modern day NHS. I don't really think there is anything else left to say or prove. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pete0 Posted July 9, 2020 Report Share Posted July 9, 2020 18 minutes ago, Bailey said: It also hasn't gone unnoticed that you appear to have side stepped the original tweet. It is clearly misleading and includes what appears to be a made up quote. Likewise you have also not removed your posting of a website which attributes quotes to Churchill that were made by the BMA and is again clearly written with the intent to mislead. How've I did stepped it. That article has both the BMA and Churchill quoted. Why do you believe one and not the other. You're the one saying the quote is made up yet you've given no reason or evidence. 23 minutes ago, Bailey said: Party of the amendments posted and oppositions of various members of all sides of the house have led us to the system we have now. The initial proposal was to bring everything under government control and quite rightly that idea was opposed. If it wasnt for the amendments you wouldn't have the choice of getting private treatment. The original Labour plan would have had significant negative consequences for all of the good it was trying to achieve. Think of the extra cost, the negative effect on the incentive to become a medical professional in this country. This is the reason you have parliament and the reason why you need a competent opposition. Something we finally have again now. Specifically what points did they differ on as I can't see what yout actual reason is here other than getting the luxury of going private which is something that shouldn't be needed if the NHS was funded properly. All it does is bump rich people up the queue to get the same treatment/operation from exactly the same doctor although in a nicer room. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bailey Posted July 10, 2020 Report Share Posted July 10, 2020 14 hours ago, pete0 said: How've I did stepped it. That article has both the BMA and Churchill quoted. Why do you believe one and not the other. You're the one saying the quote is made up yet you've given no reason or evidence. Specifically what points did they differ on as I can't see what yout actual reason is here other than getting the luxury of going private which is something that shouldn't be needed if the NHS was funded properly. All it does is bump rich people up the queue to get the same treatment/operation from exactly the same doctor although in a nicer room. Are you being serious Pete? MikeO (I think) has already addressed the quote attributed to Churchill but was actually the BMA (allegedly - I haven't sourced it myself). I have tried to source the Churchill quote and it doesn't exist. There is no credibility to any of the results. There is no time, date, speech or anything that gives evidence to Churchill saying those words. It would appear someone has just made it up. I cannot prove a negative. I could say Corbyn said he likes touching kids and just because you can't find the source it doesn't make it true. In respect of the final point, I believe you are being extremely naive and ideological. Just think of the cost alone to employing all medical staff, all training establishents etc, all medical researchers, all medical product producers etc etc. That would be hard enough in the pre-covid world but imagine what it would have been like after the war? I will not go any further with this as it is clearly becoming a pointless exercise. I would just plead with you to think about what you circulate and maybe do some research to check its credibility before you jump on the bandwagon. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Palfy Posted July 10, 2020 Report Share Posted July 10, 2020 On 08/07/2020 at 23:58, pete0 said: Just a gimmick waste of time and tax payers money, will do zilch for the economy, but swell the bank balances of the proprietors, who will find away of putting a £3.50 coffee in as a £30.00 steak, to claim the £10.00. Tory bollocks at it’s best, twats! Plus Labour are the architects of the NHS, because if the Tories had 1% of it’s startup they would be crowing about it every PM question time, instead they say fuck all and let Labour revel in the glory because they no the truth. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pete0 Posted July 10, 2020 Report Share Posted July 10, 2020 5 hours ago, Bailey said: Are you being serious Pete? MikeO (I think) has already addressed the quote attributed to Churchill but was actually the BMA (allegedly - I haven't sourced it myself). I have tried to source the Churchill quote and it doesn't exist. There is no credibility to any of the results. There is no time, date, speech or anything that gives evidence to Churchill saying those words. It would appear someone has just made it up. I cannot prove a negative. I could say Corbyn said he likes touching kids and just because you can't find the source it doesn't make it true. In respect of the final point, I believe you are being extremely naive and ideological. Just think of the cost alone to employing all medical staff, all training establishents etc, all medical researchers, all medical product producers etc etc. That would be hard enough in the pre-covid world but imagine what it would have been like after the war? I will not go any further with this as it is clearly becoming a pointless exercise. I would just plead with you to think about what you circulate and maybe do some research to check its credibility before you jump on the bandwagon. The article quotes both the BMA and Churchill. If you don't believe it that's your perogative but you've not provided anything to prove otherwise. Idealogical? The whole idea of the NHS was to provide free health service via government funding. You only have to look at how the NHS is run under the tories to see it is beneficial to have more government involvement. If costs is your only issue, then we should simply up tax/nics or better yet actually make tory backers pay their fair share. Back up your points before you start telling me to do research before I post. What proof do you have the tories and Churchill supported a national health service and only needed to be tweaked? As the only thing you've said is financial, which if anything proves the tories didn't support a national health service as we know it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pete0 Posted July 12, 2020 Report Share Posted July 12, 2020 Palfy 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pete0 Posted July 14, 2020 Report Share Posted July 14, 2020 https://yorkshirebylines.co.uk/the-truth-about-the-billion-pound-ppe-procurement-fiasco/?fbclid=IwAR3fFT89Mmpw1x47ngWsdcB2tXQ_sTx5ds-L_vEzIc_Wg5oTv21Q3xX2r_U Palfy 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pete0 Posted July 14, 2020 Report Share Posted July 14, 2020 https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/coronavirus-france-pay-rise-health-workers-jean-castex-a9617221.html?utm_medium=Social&utm_source=Facebook&fbclid=IwAR23VopfQtDA1L4HtGyWbZZBaC45iMLVrSh2IkoarlH6lo6n0PbLZbx3vE4#Echobox=1594708867 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pete0 Posted July 15, 2020 Report Share Posted July 15, 2020 Palfy 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Palfy Posted July 15, 2020 Report Share Posted July 15, 2020 13 hours ago, pete0 said: Are Tories starting to realise that life’s are more important than money, I find it hard to believe if they are, maybe that’s the evidence to say it’s starting to happen. But that’s just one who’s seen light so I won’t get to excited, because most are and will always remain horrible fuckers. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pete0 Posted July 15, 2020 Report Share Posted July 15, 2020 3 hours ago, Palfy said: Are Tories starting to realise that life’s are more important than money, I find it hard to believe if they are, maybe that’s the evidence to say it’s starting to happen. But that’s just one who’s seen light so I won’t get to excited, because most are and will always remain horrible fuckers. It's the opposite. They're moaning that they have to wear face masks in shops because them wearing a mask in an inconvenience. Let's me honest they see shop workers as merely disposable low skilled workers. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pete0 Posted July 15, 2020 Report Share Posted July 15, 2020 https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2020/jul/15/coronavirus-contracts-government-transparency-pandemic?fbclid=IwAR2hXC_pvOMAdukjxx863YJy3wj33p3ZEphlDTvN7jAHQd6Uc_CWoKMFZfc Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pete0 Posted July 16, 2020 Report Share Posted July 16, 2020 https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2020/jul/15/borderline-sociopath-boris-johnson-misjudges-mood-chamber-pmqs?fbclid=IwAR3WAHGUQqUQFBY3aL4XivYxAXhravOvh_j0miwHjTWXltn-Wxw0RvSsjSk Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pete0 Posted July 16, 2020 Report Share Posted July 16, 2020 https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2020/jul/16/julian-lewis-attempt-to-impose-grayling-was-improper-request?fbclid=IwAR0eCRFobQBoa0pShgD3TaGwL9HoGmbJrFWeZzLsrOI8_TzI5tj9kjzIMnU Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Palfy Posted July 17, 2020 Report Share Posted July 17, 2020 On 15/07/2020 at 22:25, pete0 said: It's the opposite. They're moaning that they have to wear face masks in shops because them wearing a mask in an inconvenience. Let's me honest they see shop workers as merely disposable low skilled workers. Yes completely misread that I’ll put that down to jet lag, but the last paragraph still stands most are horrible fuckers. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pete0 Posted July 17, 2020 Report Share Posted July 17, 2020 2 hours ago, Palfy said: Yes completely misread that I’ll put that down to jet lag, but the last paragraph still stands most are horrible fuckers. That they are. Here's one of the tory politicians leading by example as usual https://inews.co.uk/news/politics/face-mask-policy-farce-michael-gove-pret-541634?ito=social|facebook|fb_theipaper&fbclid=IwAR3-TCOl5bSuKgSSrS3T5YOB1ETr6vadOkB1YwqlAdiFkBH5RdxYybtVq1g Palfy 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Palfy Posted July 17, 2020 Report Share Posted July 17, 2020 40 minutes ago, pete0 said: That they are. Here's one of the tory politicians leading by example as usual https://inews.co.uk/news/politics/face-mask-policy-farce-michael-gove-pret-541634?ito=social|facebook|fb_theipaper&fbclid=IwAR3-TCOl5bSuKgSSrS3T5YOB1ETr6vadOkB1YwqlAdiFkBH5RdxYybtVq1g Case proven. Starmer needs to start bearing his claws a bit now, there’s enough evidence to start to bury these a holes, and take the away the popular misconception that they are the party for this country. Obviously the horrible fuckers won’t see it, even if they’ve had loved ones die you can bet they would be more concerned about what’s in there Bank account and what tax breaks they can take advantage of. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeO Posted July 17, 2020 Report Share Posted July 17, 2020 Not quite sure of the motivation for it but just watching... "imagine... Summer 2016: 1. One Night in 2012" ...in the iPlayer which is a fascinating programme about the making of the 2012 Olympic opening ceremony. Seems the government wanted the NHS segment deleted late in the day but Danny Boyle said if they made him take it out he'd pull all performers (all volunteers) so they backed down. Why would they do that? Coalition government at the time but obviously mostly Tory, apparently the biggest voice was the home secretary, one Theresa May.....though she's not referred to by name in the programme, just by position. Edit: Aha, watching a bit further it seems that Jeremy C Hunt wanted some reference to us winning WW2 and beating the fascists in there instead. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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