Sean Dyche

[Matt]

47 minutes ago, Palfy said:

Teams lose Matt, City, Liverpool, United, Chelsea, and Arsenal all the big boys who have won the PL numerous times and won in Europe, whether you’re interested on learning from other teams or not they haven’t achieved their success on 20-30% possession of games on regular basis. To be successful no matter who you are involves not giving the ball away cheaply and we are guilty of that and even Dyche knows and understands that’s a problem and wants to change it, you can’t keep relying on your defence to keep in you in the game constantly under pressure for 70-80% of the game time, you need your midfield wide-men and strikers to keep possession in a positive way which is forward playing and not tippy tapping around at the back, which is what Dyche wants but like he said forward doesn’t mean long balls that we can’t keep control of, didn’t he even tell the players that Dele understands what he wants and requires, and it’s not long balls being chased up the field no matter how exciting that may seem to be. 

Well, neither have we. Our average is 45% so far this season. This tells me we're having big possession games as well as games where we don't. That shows adaptive tactics based on the squad available and the opponents. 

Successful for us, currently, is safety. In my opinion before the end of the January transfer window. We can look at emulating the best in the league/world again once we've recovered from the last time we attempted to emulate them without having the basics or squad in place.

[Matt]

https://theanalyst.com/2023/10/data-says-everton-could-be-above-liverpool-but-dyche-needs-points/#:~:text=It is telling that Everton,metres from their own goal.

 

[Romey 1878]

Martinez' first season was so good and exciting because we were solid at the back and then we'd murder teams on the break. We weren't dominating games by any stretch of the imagination.

Then in the second and third season our football became very sterile and sanitised. It was boring watching us pass it round at the back, go nowhere, lose it and then concede. We were neither exciting or solid. We were shite.

Personally, I was happy with the football on show in the early parts of the season despite the results. I could see huge improvement in every aspect of our play from the previous season, and it wasn't anything to do with having more of the ball really. We were looking to win games rather than just not lose them. The results weren't there but the method was and we just needed to stick with it and it did eventually come to pass.

Are we seeing less of the ball than I'd like in some games? Yes. I wasn't annoyed by it in the games against Arsenal, the shite and Brighton because those sides are miles better than us. That's a fact. It did get to me a bit against Palace but we got the result. And after the game Dyche said he wanted us to play better than that and he believes we can and will do. It's not like he's just accepting that that's the way things are going to be. He can see what we can and he wants better too.

I really don't see the problem. We've shown we can play and we've shown that we can grind results out as well. We're not going to go about things the same way every time and we're going to keep progressing, what we see now is not the end game.

[duncanmckenzieismagic]

3 hours ago, Palfy said:

Could you tell me a team in the top flight that have been successful by having no more than 20-30% of the games they played, and what honour’s if any they won playing that way because I can’t think of one usually the opposite happens and they remain in the bottom half of the table. We all enjoy winning but if you want to be successful you have to at some point stop giving the ball away cheaply. 

Probably had more than 20 - 30% but Leicester won the league as a counter attacking side that allowed the opposition to dominate possession on a regular basis

[Shukes]

4 hours ago, Hafnia said:

 

have you considered the “xg” was high when garner wasn’t  in the middle because we were playing teams that are lesser quality than the ones we’ve actually been getting results against? 
 

the issue you are totally missing is that when we are winning our team changes tactics.  We sit back, I’m not talking about possession in isolation - you can let a team have possession and stay in control the game because you dictate where you are happy for them to have the ball. 
 

that did not happen against Brighton or palace. Only when palace equalised did we do the press and intensity. 

Yes I have considered that. And I do believe that makes a difference yes.

[Shukes]

4 hours ago, Palfy said:

So keeping control of the ball isn’t as important as chasing long balls down. I never thought I would see the day when we constantly only had between 20-30% of the ball even when at home, and I definitely never thought I would ever hear Evertonian’s saying they were happy with that situation. But there you go you live and learn. 

Me enjoying a game and a certain style doesn’t mean it’s important or not. I’m a fan.

But 100% I enjoy getting the ball forward fast, rather than 100 backwards passes just to get an unimportant stat up. 
 

Everton a club is built on a working class mentality and hard work. The day that changes will be the day I lose interest. Surprised an older fan like yourself isn’t an advocate yourself. 

[Cornish Steve]

4 hours ago, Hafnia said:

I just find it odd that if people are happy with results then there can’t be any criticism of how they are achieved.  It’s all about balance... He does have some infuriating traits and I believe it will stop him from progressing us to top half or indeed stop him getting top 8 club job. 

 

3 hours ago, Palfy said:

...whether you’re interested in learning from other teams or not they haven’t achieved their success on 20-30% possession of games on regular basis.

 

It takes a certain style of play to improve from 17th to 12th (which is about where I think we'll finish after points are docked). It will take a different style of play to improve from 12th to 8th, say, and a different style of play again to progress from there to top-6. Right now, we're on the first step of that journey. The style isn't pretty but it's increasingly effective. Let's rally around that for now and stop worrying about whether Dyche has the smarts to succeed with Steps 2 and 3. Maybe he does and maybe he doesn't, but that's for a future discussion and not for now. Currently, he appears to be succeeding with Step 1, which is more than we've witnessed in recent years.

[Cornish Steve]

2 hours ago, Matt said:

https://theanalyst.com/2023/10/data-says-everton-could-be-above-liverpool-but-dyche-needs-points/#:~:text=It is telling that Everton,metres from their own goal.

 

"When compared to forwards in Europe’s top five leagues over the past 15 years, Calvert-Lewin ranks in the 93rd percentile for goals, 91st for shots, 94th for touches in the opponent’s penalty area and 98th for aerials won."

Those are remarkable numbers.

[Palfy]

1 hour ago, duncanmckenzieismagic said:

Probably had more than 20 - 30% but Leicester won the league as a counter attacking side that allowed the opposition to dominate possession on a regular basis

Man Utd under Ferguson were a counter attacking side at pace what they didn’t do is like Leicester give the ball away cheaply, I’m not criticising our performances I’m saying if we want to improve further we need to keep better possession the ball instead of giving it away cheaply.  

[Matt]

14 minutes ago, Palfy said:

Man Utd under Ferguson were a counter attacking side at pace what they didn’t do is like Leicester give the ball away cheaply, I’m not criticising our performances I’m saying if we want to improve further we need to keep better possession the ball instead of giving it away cheaply.  

Ok but then you're talking about the players mindset, focus and discipline rather than any tactics?

[Palfy]

1 hour ago, Shukes said:

Me enjoying a game and a certain style doesn’t mean it’s important or not. I’m a fan.

But 100% I enjoy getting the ball forward fast, rather than 100 backwards passes just to get an unimportant stat up. 
 

Everton a club is built on a working class mentality and hard work. The day that changes will be the day I lose interest. Surprised an older fan like yourself isn’t an advocate yourself. 

Everton was built on stylish football and we were known across Europe as the School of Science for the way we made football look so artistic to watch, working hard is not the ownership of the working class I don’t understand the correlation between the working class working hard and playing football. You still need to work smarter when you work harder to gain success being working class and a hard worker is nothing to do with being a better footballer team. 

[duncanmckenzieismagic]

31 minutes ago, Palfy said:

Man Utd under Ferguson were a counter attacking side at pace what they didn’t do is like Leicester give the ball away cheaply, I’m not criticising our performances I’m saying if we want to improve further we need to keep better possession the ball instead of giving it away cheaply.  

Yeah I would agree with that , we definitely give up possession far too cheaply at times, just pointing out that teams can be successful and win trophies without dominating the ball

[Palfy]

7 minutes ago, Matt said:

Ok but then you're talking about the players mindset, focus and discipline rather than any tactics?

Yes that has a lot to do with it the players have to commit to the tactics of the manager, I have no doubt that Dyche is trying to implement better control when in possession of the ball he knows that giving the ball away cheaply is harming the team. He has spent ten months making us hard to beat so we have solid defence to build on. Look at Gana’s goal for me one if not the best team goal we have scored this season, we made forward passes and kept good possession of the ball, that’s the style of football we are capable of it was good possession not tippy tappy football and definitely not boring, we need to work on that side of the game with the same mentality and mindset as we have shown with our defensive side of the game, as they say you can’t stand still in football even if you’re working class hero like Shukes

[Matt]

19 minutes ago, Palfy said:

Yes that has a lot to do with it the players have to commit to the tactics of the manager, I have no doubt that Dyche is trying to implement better control when in possession of the ball he knows that giving the ball away cheaply is harming the team. He has spent ten months making us hard to beat so we have solid defence to build on. Look at Gana’s goal for me one if not the best team goal we have scored this season, we made forward passes and kept good possession of the ball, that’s the style of football we are capable of it was good possession not tippy tappy football and definitely not boring, we need to work on that side of the game with the same mentality and mindset as we have shown with our defensive side of the game, as they say you can’t stand still in football even if you’re working class hero like Shukes

Yeah, that's the style we're going for too. But fuck me, we've not even finished stabilising the ship. This little run of form needs to last at least a season before we get more expansive. Put it this way, Martinez had a great hybrid first season and thought he'd go straight into Barcaball the next. But the players and crowd didn't want that or know what to do with it. I don't care about a managers philosophy really, so long as its focused around winning. Which we're currently doing and its definitely more exciting than an attack every 15 mins with 70% possession. 

[Shukes]

2 hours ago, Palfy said:

Everton was built on stylish football and we were known across Europe as the School of Science for the way we made football look so artistic to watch, working hard is not the ownership of the working class I don’t understand the correlation between the working class working hard and playing football. You still need to work smarter when you work harder to gain success being working class and a hard worker is nothing to do with being a better footballer team. 

Everton’s history has always been and will always be about effort and work rate. 
Stylish football back in the 1920s was far far from the possession football you see teams like Man City play. Ours was effective in getting the ball forward fast and working our ass off.

I had the pleasure of watching us in the 80s. I don’t think anyone would argue that we weren’t one of the hardest working teams around. We had 11 captains on the pitch.

Hard work has always been related to the working class Palf, that’s where the term comes from. It’s kind of in the name? Now if you can’t correlate that with how Dyche has us playing at the moment, and how results have improved…. Then I am just not qualified to explain it to you. 
 

Disagree me with me as much as you want. That’s fine. But for me…. Our results have improved due to our work rate and effort. The correlation is black and white for me.

[Shukes]

I’m a working class slave Palfy, nothing heroic…. Just stupid.

[Gwlad]

The consensus at the beginning of this season was to finish safely mid table so let's focus on that. The football might not be pretty but get the points and keep the confidence which I think the squad has under Sean. A consistent starting line up is something we haven't enjoyed for ages and I think that is paying off.

[Hafnia]

2 hours ago, Shukes said:

Everton’s history has always been and will always be about effort and work rate. 
Stylish football back in the 1920s was far far from the possession football you see teams like Man City play. Ours was effective in getting the ball forward fast and working our ass off.

I had the pleasure of watching us in the 80s. I don’t think anyone would argue that we weren’t one of the hardest working teams around. We had 11 captains on the pitch.

Hard work has always been related to the working class Palf, that’s where the term comes from. It’s kind of in the name? Now if you can’t correlate that with how Dyche has us playing at the moment, and how results have improved…. Then I am just not qualified to explain it to you. 
 

Disagree me with me as much as you want. That’s fine. But for me…. Our results have improved due to our work rate and effort. The correlation is black and white for me.

Calm down shukes!  I’m a stickler for hard work from players.  It’s the minimum expectation, let’s not lose sight that hard work also involves movement off the ball when in possession to make it easier to retain possession - something we don’t do very well. 

[Cornish Steve]

We're much more of a team, as well. Someone mentioned in the Mykolenko thread that Gray would never pass the ball to him. Put it another way: Gray is a selfish player. Better to have a solid team than a collection of prima donna individuals. The story about Onana being punished for being late is part of the same narrative: the actions of an individual must not be allowed to hurt the team. They're all in it together. Players appear to be talking to one another more, and they're not afraid to challenge their teammates. This is good to see.

By the way, there was a lot of concern after the transfer window that we'd spent too little and sold key players without replacements. Looking back, it was a superb window for us and just goes to prove that good recruitment is more about strategy than money. Let's hope we pursue the same approach in January.

[Shukes]

Just reading Dyches latest interview. 
The question was, can the players do the hard work and the ugly stuff?

Seems Dyche IS working on the effort and hard work. That should end this conversation shouldn’t it?

[Wiggytop]

Can we get away from the whole class issue, I come on here to discuss and read about football, and really don’t want to hear about other views of class status, shoes or their job, even less about the registration of the car FFS. 

[RuffRob]

16 hours ago, Cornish Steve said:

 

 

It takes a certain style of play to improve from 17th to 12th (which is about where I think we'll finish after points are docked). It will take a different style of play to improve from 12th to 8th, say, and a different style of play again to progress from there to top-6. Right now, we're on the first step of that journey. The style isn't pretty but it's increasingly effective. Let's rally around that for now and stop worrying about whether Dyche has the smarts to succeed with Steps 2 and 3. Maybe he does and maybe he doesn't, but that's for a future discussion and not for now. Currently, he appears to be succeeding with Step 1, which is more than we've witnessed in recent years.

I totally agree, patience is the key. We have been as low as you could go without getting relgated for two seasons in the row. We are building from a very low base, with lots of issue still going on at the club, we need proper stability first in place and like you said that simply step 1. As well as the football side of things Step 1 is now going to include the new owners becoming embedded in to the club and developing the processes they want to implement. It is also going to involve moving in to a new ground. There are massive once in generation (or even once in a lifetime) changes going to be happening this next couple of years.

I would much rather see a steady improvment of all things at the club over the next 4-5 seasons to build a strong but  sustainable football club. It's is steady hands and focused minded that are needed at the moment. I feel we have that with Dyche and Thelwell. 

 

[Palfy]

Just now, Matt said:

Happy to but it's not my definition, that's Oxford English Dictionary's definition.

I’ve opened a new thread in off topic discussions. 

[Cornish Steve]

30 minutes ago, Palfy said:

I’ve opened a new thread in off topic discussions. 

New rules at TT? I thought discussions and discussion titles were purposely at odds.

[Matt]

4 hours ago, Cornish Steve said:

New rules at TT? I thought discussions and discussion titles were purposely at odds.

 

Hopefully moved them all now

[Palfy]

5 minutes ago, Matt said:

 

Hopefully moved them all now

Nice one mate, I think we pissed a few people off which is understandable, but I’ll take full responsibility for that, is my only public warning expired yet Matt if so feel free to issue me with another. 

[Matt]

37 minutes ago, Palfy said:

Nice one mate, I think we pissed a few people off which is understandable, but I’ll take full responsibility for that, is my only public warning expired yet Matt if so feel free to issue me with another. 

Don't be daft, it's an interesting topic that went further than expected so it gets its own thread so those who aren't interested can now stick it on ignore 

 

[StevO]

On 15/11/2023 at 10:25, Wiggytop said:

Can we get away from the whole class issue, I come on here to discuss and read about football, and really don’t want to hear about other views of class status, shoes or their job, even less about the registration of the car FFS. 

I enjoy talking about shoes. I have too many trainers (so my wife says) (and my mum) (and my sister) (and my dad). 

[Palfy]

3 hours ago, StevO said:

I enjoy talking about shoes. I have too many trainers (so my wife says) (and my mum) (and my sister) (and my dad). 

Is that a fetish thing. 

[duncanmckenzieismagic]

https://www.liverpoolecho.co.uk/sport/football/football-news/dont-want-finch-farm-fight-28120379