Board/Owners Related Stuff

[MikeO]

 

in fairness to haf you never proved anything. you showed that other clubs have high "other" costs as well. doesn't mean they can't be bilking their club of money either (not saying they are just stating for arguments sake).

 

the argument can only be solved with an actual itemization of those costs, but i doubt we'll ever see that.

 

You want it itemised so we know everything spent on paper clips, plane charters, hotel expenses, bandages for the physio and wages for the PA guy? Makes all sort of sense that. We need to know :shaking fist:.

[markjazzbassist]

 

You want it itemised so we know everything spent on paper clips, plane charters, hotel expenses, bandages for the physio and wages for the PA guy? Makes all sort of sense that. We need to know :shaking fist:.

 

in america the accounting sheets that companies have to produce publicly are a lot more detailed. i'm guessing since Everton isn't publicly traded they don't have to show as much hence not showing as much (no judgement there). I'm just asking for more details mike. Paper clips and pencils are easy, under "office supplies", and then grass maintenance fees under "goodison maintenence", and so forth etc.

 

it's probably just i've come accustomed to more transparency, i'm not familiar with the UK system.

[MikeO]

 

in america the accounting sheets that companies have to produce publicly are a lot more detailed. i'm guessing since Everton isn't publicly traded they don't have to show as much hence not showing as much (no judgement there). I'm just asking for more details mike. Paper clips and pencils are easy, under "office supplies", and then grass maintenance fees under "goodison maintenence", and so forth etc.

 

it's probably just i've come accustomed to more transparency, i'm not familiar with the UK system.

 

Mark you stated when I posted the figures that you were going off to research and (hopefully from you perspective) return with a counter argument. You came back with a big fat silence. As did everyone. 'nuff said.

[markjazzbassist]

 

Mark you stated when I posted the figures that you were going off to research and (hopefully from you perspective) return with a counter argument. You came back with a big fat silence. As did everyone. 'nuff said.

 

 

yes because all the other accounting figures i found from other squads were the same massive vague terms (which lead me to my point below)

 

(made up numbers but trying to show how vague it all is)

 

operating costs - 4m

other operating costs - 5m

debts -

vibrac loan 10m

finch farm payment - 5m (or whatever it is)

liabilities -

debt - 15m

assets -

goodison park - 20m

everton office building - 5m

trade debts owed -

total debt - 10m

outstanding debt - 5m

 

i realized the accounting practices and laws here in the US are massively different from England. You'll get a 30 page document from a small company over here, Everton football club has 13 actual pages (out of the 80 page annual report) for a football club and the terms are vague like above. so there's not much diving into the financials i can do, wish there was as i would love to just see the cash to dispel or prove the myth.

 

that's why i was silent. i did see spurs and newcastle and southampton and the like (like you did) but theirs were EVEN MORE VAGUE (can you believe that?) than ours!! Soton and Newcastle i couldn't find an actual document, it was just super vague figures put out in a press release on their sites.

 

So bravo to the board for actually making a document, and I guess the real culprit here is me being an American! damnit, if only i was british i wouldn't desire these things :shaking fist:

Edited August 20, 2015 by markjazzbassist

[MikeO]

And as I said at the time, if we have stuff to hide why are we so much more open than virtually everyone else? Why do we have a dedicated page on our official website giving links to accounts going back a decade when nobody else does? Why put ourselves out there if we don't legally have to?

 

Doesn't smell of people trying to skim off the top does it?

[markjazzbassist]

And as I said at the time, if we have stuff to hide why are we so much more open than virtually everyone else? Why do we have a dedicated page on our official website giving links to accounts going back a decade when nobody else does? Why put ourselves out there if we don't legally have to?

 

Doesn't smell of people trying to skim off the top does it?

 

can't argue with that mike to be honest.

[MC11]

The main issue is the board won't or can't put money into the club. That's the issue. I've always said that whatever we've sold the board has given back to the manager. One occasion that hasn't happened and that was Arteta. However I did some research on Vibrac and I'm pretty certain they'll have called a loan in that year. Something they've done to a couple of other clubs

[Cornish Steve]

The main issue is the board won't or can't put money into the club. That's the issue. I've always said that whatever we've sold the board has given back to the manager. One occasion that hasn't happened and that was Arteta. However I did some research on Vibrac and I'm pretty certain they'll have called a loan in that year. Something they've done to a couple of other clubs

 

It's a business. Putting money into the club is an investment, and any owners will expect at least a 10 percent return. The principal different I see with Everton is that the CEO and marketing team are totally inept. So much more could be done to generate cash from the team's proud history.

[Hafnia]

The reason I haven't replied back to the specifics of operating costs is I haven't had a good chance. I will log onto my pc open excel, get some numbers going but there is a fuckin discrepency in there absolutely no doubt. What has made those numbers go up so much in a short time? Absolutely astounding.

[Hafnia]

 

Seriously, are you taking the piss??

 

Johnson told Smith he had a hefty war chest to spend so he whent out and bought players like John Collins, Marco Materazi and Olivier Dacourt who were all top quality players. Then Johnson pulled the plug and told him we didn't actually have any money so not only would he have to sell all his top players that he would have to build his team around ageing has beens like Gasgoine and Ginola

 

So it wasn't just Ferguson he sold from under him

 

Not sure whether or not your just too young to remember that era or if your just choosing to ignore it and are trying to re-write history again

 

I don't know what irritates me more the Johnson regime or people who are too thick to realise what direction he was taking us in

Oh Dunc, did kenwright rescue us from Peter Johnson?! Or did he just operate as an equally shite businessman using a different methodology.

 

Johnson tried a rights issue etc which actually diluted his money, kenwright basically mortgaged our future against goodison park, sold bellefield and many other players and relied on a manager and increased tv money to get us out the shit.

[MikeO]

The reason I haven't replied back to the specifics of operating costs is I haven't had a good chance. I will log onto my pc open excel, get some numbers going but there is a fuckin discrepency in there absolutely no doubt. What has made those numbers go up so much in a short time? Absolutely astounding.

 

I look forward to it. You seem to be able to answer anything else with half an essay at the drop of a hat . Been a few weeks now but look forward to your considered response and in particular why we dare to be the same as everybody else (or better) in this regard. It's a disgrace.

[Hafnia]

 

I look forward to it. You seem to be able to answer anything else with half an essay at the drop of a hat . Been a few weeks now but look forward to your considered response and in particular why we dare to be the same as everybody else (or better) in this regard. It's a disgrace.

Easy to write essays using a phone Mike. But I think you will agree this needs like for like analysis?

 

In short bellefield and netherton cost £8k a day to run. Finch farm costs over £38k a day.... Now how does that happen?

[MikeO]

Easy to write essays using a phone Mike. But I think you will agree this needs like for like analysis?

 

In short bellefield and netherton cost £8k a day to run. Finch farm costs over £38k a day.... Now how does that happen?

 

We're talking "other operating expenses" which you suggest are being influenced by money being syphoned off by the board.

 

Like for like analysis is precisely what I gave, our percentage against turnover in that category against other clubs who publish their details. Let me remind you...

 

Arsenal 22.7%

ManU 20.3%

Spurs 24.3 %

Everton 21.5%

So we surmise (by your logic) that the Spurs and Arsenal board are slightly more adept at dodgy activities than ours are but we're slightly more clever than the Glazers.

It's a non-issue, the auditors will have all the receipts, let it go; the sniping is infantile. There are real problems at the club that need addressing, concentrate on those and we can have a sensible discussion. This needs putting to bed, which is what I hoped I'd done.

[Newty82]

For our American friends looking at UK accounts (in case you haven't caught on yet, you probably have!!!)...All UK Limited companies are obliged to submit an annual accounting document for anyone to see (usually costs about a quid to download). But the detail doesn't have to be 'itemised', it's just a basic summary document. I'm no expert so excuse my terminology etc. I guess only the taxman and accounting firm will get the real deep diving info on all costs etc.

 

With regards to Peter Johnson. I'm not sure if Haf or anyone is defending or what, but this bloke turned into a 4 year nightmare. Under his stewardship, we had many poor commercial deals, broken promises, dodgy goings on etc that put the club on its knees. The Rothschild report for the sale of the club back in 1999 proves as much. He almost bankrupt the club. The debts (for that era) were huge. The club was losing money every year. We were a farce. We had to sell players quickly, reduce wages quickly and increase ticket prices quickly just to survive.

 

Every fan wanted him gone.

 

I'm sure most fans were over the moon for Kenwright to do all he could to get in. But it was clear from day one that he couldn't personally bankroll the club.

 

Unfortunately, with him not having any serious personal coin to throw our way, we've seen a number of short term deals being pulled off to keep cash flow going. Such as undervalued (in our one way minds) sponsorships and certain services being given to 3rd parties.

 

I'm not wanting to defend Kenwright because there has been some dross, but I also think that there is a lot of over the top bully boy type shite getting thrown his way. I think at times he can't do right no matter what.

 

We've been sinking since the late Sir Jon Moores demise. That was in the 80's. 30 years ago now.

 

As fans, we seem to be stuck in 2 minds. One...we feel we are a big club who should be able to attract these mega investors, get top notch sponsorship deals etc. But then when it comes transfers, we act differently...we talk of 'big' clubs taking our players, better players choosing 'big' clubs over us.

 

What are we?

[markjazzbassist]

For our American friends looking at UK accounts (in case you haven't caught on yet, you probably have!!!)...All UK Limited companies are obliged to submit an annual accounting document for anyone to see (usually costs about a quid to download). But the detail doesn't have to be 'itemised', it's just a basic summary document. I'm no expert so excuse my terminology etc. I guess only the taxman and accounting firm will get the real deep diving info on all costs etc.

 

With regards to Peter Johnson. I'm not sure if Haf or anyone is defending or what, but this bloke turned into a 4 year nightmare. Under his stewardship, we had many poor commercial deals, broken promises, dodgy goings on etc that put the club on its knees. The Rothschild report for the sale of the club back in 1999 proves as much. He almost bankrupt the club. The debts (for that era) were huge. The club was losing money every year. We were a farce. We had to sell players quickly, reduce wages quickly and increase ticket prices quickly just to survive.

 

Every fan wanted him gone.

 

I'm sure most fans were over the moon for Kenwright to do all he could to get in. But it was clear from day one that he couldn't personally bankroll the club.

 

Unfortunately, with him not having any serious personal coin to throw our way, we've seen a number of short term deals being pulled off to keep cash flow going. Such as undervalued (in our one way minds) sponsorships and certain services being given to 3rd parties.

 

I'm not wanting to defend Kenwright because there has been some dross, but I also think that there is a lot of over the top bully boy type shite getting thrown his way. I think at times he can't do right no matter what.

 

We've been sinking since the late Sir Jon Moores demise. That was in the 80's. 30 years ago now.

 

As fans, we seem to be stuck in 2 minds. One...we feel we are a big club who should be able to attract these mega investors, get top notch sponsorship deals etc. But then when it comes transfers, we act differently...we talk of 'big' clubs taking our players, better players choosing 'big' clubs over us.

 

What are we?

 

great post newty. currently we are a mid table club finanical/business/sponsorship wise, a mid table club results wise, and a big club history wise. i say mid table results wise because i'm saying top 4 is big clubs consistently (not us).

[duncanmckenzieismagic]

Oh Dunc, did kenwright rescue us from Peter Johnson?! Or did he just operate as an equally shite businessman using a different methodology.

 

Johnson tried a rights issue etc which actually diluted his money, kenwright basically mortgaged our future against goodison park, sold bellefield and many other players and relied on a manager and increased tv money to get us out the shit.

 

Yes on both counts

 

The club was sinking fast under Johnson and it was only a matter of time before we were relegated and who knows where we would be now if that had happened but my guess is we would have gone down the same route as Man City, Sheffield Wednesday and Leeds

 

BK did have a different methodology, he sold off the assets to turn the team around and you and your like keep banging on about what a bad thing that was but none of you ever come up with a plan for what you would have done differently

 

Your hatred for Kenwright clouds your judgement and you steadfastly refuse to believe he has ever done any good for the club despite the facts suggesting he has done a lot for Everton

 

You harped on about other operating costs and Mike has proved that to be bollocks

 

You harped on about us only finishing in the League were we should do because of our wage budget and I have proved that to be bollocks

 

You intimated that he and the Board have been skimming money off the club and the independent auditors reports would suggest that was bollocks

 

But the biggest load of bollocks I have ever heard in my life is you saying that the only thing Peter Johnson ever did wrong was to appoint Walter Smith. Johnson was an absolute disaster for Everton Football Club and I would pick BK over him any day of the week

 

I am in no way a " happy clapper" as you and the knobheads from the Buffoon Union like to say. I have said all along that BK and the Board have a long list of failings and have blundered from one PR disaster to the next. I don't believe we will ever move forward while he is in charge and I will be just as glad as you are if the day ever arises when we do get a wealthy Chairman who can take us back to the top

 

I just draw the line and don't buy into the wild accusations, conspiracy theories or name calling that the Kenwright out brigade are famous for

[Newty82]

 

great post newty. currently we are a mid table club finanical/business/sponsorship wise, a mid table club results wise, and a big club history wise. i say mid table results wise because i'm saying top 4 is big clubs consistently (not us).

Thing is though, this historical big club stuff doesn't cut it anymore. Not in this modern cut throat commercialised football world.

 

It's been 30 years since we had some sort of successful cup and league winning era. Since then, we've seen a number of clubs win many cups and either overtake us or stride further in front.

 

We were probably the first club to enjoy the delights of a wealthy businessman willing to personally back a football club (maybe not directly with his own money but certainly to act as security to secure top players and pay top wages). Unfortunately, I also think we are the first club to see the aftermath of when such individuals can longer carry on. Maybe it's just bad luck that Heysel happened just as Sir Jon was falling into ill health and was no longer able to oversee things so acutely. But then do we blame the late Sir Phillip Carter? After all, it's the same situation. He took on the chairmanship without any personal wealth to put in and the club quickly started to sink into the 90's. Not a chance.

 

We use the selling of assets as a beating stick these days. But I guess if we didn't sell bricks and mortar assets to keep cash flow going, then we'd have to sell our next best assets...players. Where would that have left the club?

 

Oh man, I'm knackered now. I think I might have lost the point I wanted to make somewhere...eyes are too tired to tell me!!! Maybe I'll try again tomorrow...but in a nutshell, I find it hard to blame it all on one man.

[Hafnia]

http://www.sos1878.co.uk/everton-fans/exposing-efc-board-is-a-game-of-cat-and-mouse/

 

I think this article summarises things perfectly,

 

For the record Dunc I have no hatred for kenwright, so don't be a prick. I am irritated and tired of the years of bullshit that he has fronted. Get it right.

 

Without the sale of Rooney, bellefield, the loans against goodison, the sale of arteta we were going into administration - do your homework. Kenwright authorised a spending spreeon NTL money that wasn't there, lumbered us with a ridiculous debt on the back of which. £19m which meant the banks nailed us and had us by the balls.

 

So please, cut the shit. He's been out of his depth since day 1.

Edited August 20, 2015 by Hafnia

[MikeO]

http://www.sos1878.co.uk/everton-fans/exposing-efc-board-is-a-game-of-cat-and-mouse/

 

 

Same old same old.

 

Are you using that article to avoid answering the truth that I've pointed out? Lazy.

 

Anyway, I'm off to bed, we'll resume tomorrow.

[Hafnia]

Well whilst you are asleep there will be someone out there searching for a buyer... It's a 24/7 thing!

[duncanmckenzieismagic]

http://www.sos1878.co.uk/everton-fans/exposing-efc-board-is-a-game-of-cat-and-mouse/

 

I think this article summarises things perfectly,

 

For the record Dunc I have no hatred for kenwright, so don't be a prick. I am irritated and tired of the years of bullshit that he has fronted. Get it right.

 

Without the sale of Rooney, bellefield, the loans against goodison, the sale of arteta we were going into administration - do your homework. Kenwright authorised a spending spreeon NTL money that wasn't there, lumbered us with a ridiculous debt on the back of which. £19m which meant the banks nailed us and had us by the balls.

 

So please, cut the shit. He's been out of his depth since day 1.

 

They have been exposed as a hypercritical bunch of tossers this week on twitter so I wont even bother reading it as Im sure it will be the same old drivel

 

They complain that BK and Everton are too cloak and dagger and wont answer any questions put to them ...... then they block anybody that questions them

 

They call Kenwright Billy Liar.......... then they get caught out buying followers on twitter in an attempt to make themselves look like they have more backing than they actually do

 

They harp on about asset stripping yet don't provide an alternative

 

They want the Board out but have no clue who they want in

 

Anybody that doesn't share their opinions are abused and insulted

 

In fact I wouldn't be at all surprised to find out that you were the founding member of SOS

[duncanmckenzieismagic]

http://www.liverpoolecho.co.uk/sport/football/football-news/howard-kendall-everton-fans-who-9896605

[Hafnia]

Yeah perfect Howard, let's continue the business model of asset stripping and just hope that one day we don't get relegated.

 

Because let's be honest we could get a faceless Russian who doesn't understand the history of Everton... But let's be honest in another 20 years of this bullshit our history will diluted by 40 years of fuck all. "Oh wait, we got top 4 and had a final". I'd take a faceless Russian oversomeone who has more faces than the town hall clock.

 

BTW Dunc, I'm not tied to any fan movements, I barely have time to watch a game these days.

 

Sharing the same opinions like many more fans. You can't even accept all the shite that kenwright and his merry band of men have lumbered us with.

 

Remove the tv money from the equation and our club has been handled fuckin disgracefully.

 

Keep cryin into your cornflakes every time we sell a top player and question not the reason why we have to do this shit. Of course it's probably down to the kopite Johnson. Nothing to do with the bullshitter and his continued fuck ups.

 

Shall I list them chronologically for you? Would that make it easier? Cos it's absolutely shocking. Then again how can people who can look no further than their nose see this when Sir Phillip Greens media chums get their protective wheels in motion.

Edited August 21, 2015 by Hafnia

[Newty82]

The question then is why would a self made rich man want to buy this club and throw all his hard earned money at us?

 

I understand that some of the business decisions have been poor, no doubt about it.. that's been going on for 20-30 years. But I don't understand this expectation that a club with very little to show for 30 years should expect big commercial companies to throw money at us and/or have some rich bloke throw money at us?

[Matt]

Lets get this straight....

 

The current board sold off stuff and made deals that, even though they're crap by comparison, at least didn't lose us money. They had to do this because of the previous owners poor business dealings and, predominantly Walter Smith.

 

What was the alternative? If you're in a sinking ship, you find whatever you can to plug the gap to stop the rot and start getting the water out. Then you start looking at improving your situation. You can't complain the ship is being kept afloat because you lose your mop and bucket, if using the mop and bucket stopped the ship going down!

 

Was there a better way of rescuing the club? Who knows. If we had continued the way we were going with PJ, we were fucked. Its that simple.

[StevO]

I think the board aren't doing a good enough job, but I don't think they are stealing money out of the club. I think only Earl is making a profit from it via Vibrac. I don't think the operating costs are an issue at all.

 

I've said before, there are plenty of sticks to beat them with, we don't need to find more.

[Matt]

I think the board aren't doing a good enough job, but I don't think they are stealing money out of the club. I think only Earl is making a profit from it via Vibrac. I don't think the operating costs are an issue at all.

 

I've said before, there are plenty of sticks to beat them with, we don't need to find more.

I don't think they are now, but I understand the early dealings. The issue for me is with Elstone, who did get some deals in to replace others that were losing us money, but tied us down on to long term deals which are laughable.

 

Operating costs is just a nonsense. There are 1001 things going on about that we can't fathom, each with their own cost.

[Hafnia]

The question then is why would a self made rich man want to buy this club and throw all his hard earned money at us?

 

I understand that some of the business decisions have been poor, no doubt about it.. that's been going on for 20-30 years. But I don't understand this expectation that a club with very little to show for 30 years should expect big commercial companies to throw money at us and/or have some rich bloke throw money at us?

 

the business decisions kenwright made have been catastrophic - completely and utterly changed the direction of Everton.

 

1. Kings Dock - £30m was ringfenced - lie. We missed out on an iconic 50,000 state of the art all seater stadium that would have generated non match day income through concerts etc. We missed out because he wanted the club. He could have put his name in legendary terms, instead he headed up the one biggest failures in modern english football.

 

If we had that stadium delvered it would have guaranteed our place among the top 4 - absolutely no doubt whatsoever. Investment would come in, the best players, more fans etc etc

 

2. NTL - £19m blown on transfers based on money that did not get put in the account. That £19m made the club have to take out stinking mortgages that crippled us and led to the sale of rooney and many more players - a 25 year mortgage. The sale of bellefield, mortgaging goodison. The TV money has diluted that but allowed the likes of stoke to take their place beside us.

 

3. Fortress fund - used as a lie to fend off Gregg and get support of the board. There was no deal. It was ameans to an end

 

4. Kirby - how much was ploughed into that no goer? A group of fans did the due dilligence that the board conveniently overlooked. Turns out those group of fans were absolutely spot on and discovered yet many more lies.

 

feel free to add in any more. He hired Moyes though so that kinda saved his bacon having a manager who was adept at small money transfer deals (not that I liked him as a tactician)

[Paddock]

 

Yes on both counts

 

The club was sinking fast under Johnson and it was only a matter of time before we were relegated and who knows where we would be now if that had happened but my guess is we would have gone down the same route as Man City, Sheffield Wednesday and Leeds

 

BK did have a different methodology, he sold off the assets to turn the team around and you and your like keep banging on about what a bad thing that was but none of you ever come up with a plan for what you would have done differently

 

Your hatred for Kenwright clouds your judgement and you steadfastly refuse to believe he has ever done any good for the club despite the facts suggesting he has done a lot for Everton

 

You harped on about other operating costs and Mike has proved that to be bollocks

 

You harped on about us only finishing in the League were we should do because of our wage budget and I have proved that to be bollocks

 

You intimated that he and the Board have been skimming money off the club and the independent auditors reports would suggest that was bollocks

 

But the biggest load of bollocks I have ever heard in my life is you saying that the only thing Peter Johnson ever did wrong was to appoint Walter Smith. Johnson was an absolute disaster for Everton Football Club and I would pick BK over him any day of the week

 

I am in no way a " happy clapper" as you and the knobheads from the Buffoon Union like to say. I have said all along that BK and the Board have a long list of failings and have blundered from one PR disaster to the next. I don't believe we will ever move forward while he is in charge and I will be just as glad as you are if the day ever arises when we do get a wealthy Chairman who can take us back to the top

 

I just draw the line and don't buy into the wild accusations, conspiracy theories or name calling that the Kenwright out brigade are famous for

That's a very good post Dunc.

[Matt]

 

the business decisions kenwright made have been catastrophic - completely and utterly changed the direction of Everton.

 

1. Kings Dock - £30m was ringfenced - lie. We missed out on an iconic 50,000 state of the art all seater stadium that would have generated non match day income through concerts etc. We missed out because he wanted the club. He could have put his name in legendary terms, instead he headed up the one biggest failures in modern english football.

 

If we had that stadium delvered it would have guaranteed our place among the top 4 - absolutely no doubt whatsoever. Investment would come in, the best players, more fans etc etc

 

2. NTL - £19m blown on transfers based on money that did not get put in the account. That £19m made the club have to take out stinking mortgages that crippled us and led to the sale of rooney and many more players - a 25 year mortgage. The sale of bellefield, mortgaging goodison. The TV money has diluted that but allowed the likes of stoke to take their place beside us.

 

3. Fortress fund - used as a lie to fend off Gregg and get support of the board. There was no deal. It was ameans to an end

 

4. Kirby - how much was ploughed into that no goer? A group of fans did the due dilligence that the board conveniently overlooked. Turns out those group of fans were absolutely spot on and discovered yet many more lies.

 

feel free to add in any more. He hired Moyes though so that kinda saved his bacon having a manager who was adept at small money transfer deals (not that I liked him as a tactician)

1. I agree the Kings Dock would've been a revolutionized us, but that statement for someone who doesn't hate BK, is so over dramatic and over exaggerated, its embarrassing.

 

2. NTL - he was lied to, he was naive. So I agree, it was silly but again you make a stupid statement that "the likes of Stoke..." - Sorry, remind me what Stoke have won? What have they averaged over the last 20 years in the league? Not even close. The only thing they're better than at us is wasting money.

 

3. Can't really argue, but not 100% convinced on the debate

 

4. "We want a new stadium!", "we're looking at a new stadium in Kirkby", "Why are you wasting money looking into a new stadium! We want a new stadium!".... Bizarre....

Edited August 21, 2015 by Matt