Same old Everton

[Hafnia]

Carsley and Gravesen (until he was loaned back) wernt Moyes signings.

 

Last season we played some really good stuff. Villa away.

Whatever or whoever signed them, the point is Moyes has had players capable of a better standard of football.

 

Villa away? Never a truer indicator of the type of football associated with a manager. With Moyes people remember specific games where we played well... Under better managers it becomes the norm and it's only the games where the standard doesn't meet that you remember.

[duncanmckenzieismagic]

Whatever or whoever signed them, the point is Moyes has had players capable of a better standard of football.

 

Villa away? Never a truer indicator of the type of football associated with a manager. With Moyes people remember specific games where we played well... Under better managers it becomes the norm and it's only the games where the standard doesn't meet that you remember.

I don't think that's true at all. We played some fantastic football under Moyes and I'm not just talking about the odd game here and there either. Some people would have you believe he just had us playing hoofball but IMO they are talking out of their arses.

That said I do firmly believe Martinez has us playing better football and we have definitely progressed under him although sometimes I just wish we had a plan B

 

Are we anywhere nearer the top 4? Probably not and with the number of loan players we have got I have absolutely no idea what the side is going to look like next year

Edited February 21, 2014 by duncanmckenzieismagic

[NYBlue]

It was the constant so close yet so far under Moyes that finally got my goat that became synonymous with our club. It was and is a mental blocker. Martinez has made great strides this season but as he has said it's building blocks. The plan B will come, I just think it will take at least one more season.

 

My only concern right now is when he has to evolve our defence. He has that stellar back line and solidity right now, no questions on the attack but the defense concerns me.

[MC11]

it was the constant so close yet so far ]under Moyes that finally got my goat that became synonymous with our club. It was and is a mental blocker. Martinez has made great strides this season but as he has said it's building blocks. The plan B will come, I just think it will take at least one more season.

 

My only concern right now is when he has to evolve our defence. He has that stellar back line and solidity right now, no questions on the attack but the defense concerns me.

And that is match point!

 

It's absolute torture missing out! At least if you're a mid table side you know what you're getting and anything else is a bonus.

 

Being the best of the rest is so painful!

Edited February 21, 2014 by MiguelCotto

[MC11]

I don't think that's true at all. We played some fantastic football under Moyes and I'm not just talking about the odd game here and there either. Some people would have you believe he just had us playing hoofball but IMO they are talking out of their arses.

That said I do firmly believe Martinez has us playing better football and we have definitely progressed under him although sometimes I just wish we had a plan B

Are we anywhere nearer the top 4? Probably not and with the number of loan players we have got I have absolutely no idea what the side is going to look like next year

Spot on Duncan.

[Cornish Steve]

 

I think as with any new manager you have to give them patience and time to get the squad they want

 

This season, he's transformed the midfield - bringing in McCarthy, Barry, and Barkley (from being the outcast) - and acquired a long-term backup goalie. In the summer, I can see him transforming our aging defence - like it or not, Jagielka and Distin are up there in years. The really interesting moves will be up-front.

[NYBlue]

And that is match point!

 

It's absolute torture missing out! At least if you're a mid table side you know what you're getting and anything else is a bonus.

 

Being the best of the rest is so painful!

 

Not sure if I'm agreeing or disagreeing.

 

Each and every team has the ability to turn things round, lots of variables but time and a manager with a long term plan in place is key. No matter which team I supported I wouldn't accept being a mid table side and that's my lot. I accept it would be difficult, but not impossible.

[MC11]

This season, he's transformed the midfield - bringing in McCarthy, Barry, and Barkley (from being the outcast) - and acquired a long-term backup goalie. In the summer, I can see him transforming our aging defence - like it or not, Jagielka and Distin are up there in years. The really interesting moves will be up-front.

 

That long term backup goalie has major question marks over his head. He does not build confidence in me. If he plays away at Arsenal in the cup he'll have to play out of his skin because he isn't a scratch on Howard.

[Sibdane]

That long term backup goalie has major question marks over his head. He does not build confidence in me. If he plays away at Arsenal in the cup he'll have to play out of his skin because he isn't a scratch on Howard.

 

I agree with you to an extent, but to be fair, Joel did play in the FA Cup Final win for Wigan last season.

Edited February 21, 2014 by TonkaRoost

[NYBlue]

I would be disappointed if Joel played at Arsenal. It has to be our strongest 11 for an FA Cup quarter final.

[Bailey]

I don't think that's true at all. We played some fantastic football under Moyes and I'm not just talking about the odd game here and there either. Some people would have you believe he just had us playing hoofball but IMO they are talking out of their arses.

That said I do firmly believe Martinez has us playing better football and we have definitely progressed under him although sometimes I just wish we had a plan B

 

Are we anywhere nearer the top 4? Probably not and with the number of loan players we have got I have absolutely no idea what the side is going to look like next year

 

We played some really good stuff under Moyes but it was in small patches. Last season we started really well and then gradually faded, the 2 or 3 seasons before that we dreadfully, played some great stuff in the middle before petering out again at the finish. Other than the year we got to the FA Cup final I dont think we have ever really strung a run of really good performances together. Under Moyes when we played well, we still didnt make many chances but under Martinez even when we play to averagly (like the last couple of games) we have still created more than enough chances to comfortably finish teams off. When we play well under Martinez we are pretty much guarenteed to create plenty of opportunties and that is a big positive. We just need to start putting them away!

 

I think Martinez does have a plan B because we have changed systems on quite a few times at the ends of games. He has made a fair few influencial substitutions as well but even then I can see why people say he doesnt especially in an attacking sense but when you hire a manager that believes in a certain system/philosophy so strongly you have to take the rough with the smooth.

 

Going on last years points tally we would be sitting in the top 4 which shows that the league is stronger this year (backed up by the 2 CL games as well despite their losses). Realistically Arsenal, City and Liverpool can rip anyone apart this year and you couldnt say that about any of the teams last season. We might not be closer to the top 4 in the table this year but bearing in mind Martinez is only in his first season I think we are looking more like a top 4 club this season than we have done for the 4 or 5 years previously.

 

God knows how we will line-up next season but whatever happens it will at least be an exciting summer!

[MC11]

Walks in....

 

Walks out....

[Hafnia]

I actually think this idiots a wum.

[MC11]

I actually think this idiots a wum.

I've left £500 behind the bar Haf. Get yourself half a lager

[Hafnia]

I've left £500 behind the bar Haf. Get yourself half a lager

Go and troll somewhere else. It's a decent forum and knob heads usually get the message or banned in the end...

[duncanmckenzieismagic]

http://metro.co.uk/2014/02/24/is-roberto-martinez-really-a-better-manager-than-david-moyes-4315570/

[Matt]

http://metro.co.uk/2014/02/24/is-roberto-martinez-really-a-better-manager-than-david-moyes-4315570/

spot on, although a little condescending.

 

Im waiting until the end of the season, but Ive already started writing a mini-blog and asked Optastats for information (no response yet) saying more or less the same thing... Only 3 changes in my eyes, and none of them have gotten us any further

[GoodisonRoad]

http://metro.co.uk/2014/02/24/is-roberto-martinez-really-a-better-manager-than-david-moyes-4315570/

 

You have to consider that this is still our first year of transition though. You cant expect to implement a philopshy in a little under 9 months. Expecatations after our start to the season soared and i think now reality has hit us. We are slowly bringing in the type of players Martinez needs to implement his style but as ever our problem seems to be finding a constant goal threat.

 

I said in another thread we really need to be looking at Strikers who play similarly to Naismith rather than Lukaku's or Traore's. Naisy has done well and would still be a good rotation option but we need someone of quality to take us to the next level (i know, how many times has that been said) It pains me to say but it works so well for the shite with Suarez and Sturridge because they link with the midifelder so well. If you look at their attributes, they are essentially midfielders. Having a 6ft + striker who is going to bully defences are a thing of the past, which is why i dont think Lukaku will become the player he wants to be unless he sorts his touch and technique out, hes still young and can adapt his game to this but "Droga esq" players i.e powerful, arent going to get you that far anymore IMO.

 

We also need more creativity. I think Pienaar can give us this, but when playing against the big boys its painfully obvious he isnt a LW anymore. He just doesnt have the pace. I think he could still be effective behind the striker but even then he is on borrowed time. He is what? 32 now?

 

It will be an interesting Summer for sure, we should have atleast £20m to spend based on players who have been sold. Whether that will be spent remains to be seen but there are key area's of the team that need strengthening in order to improve quality and to replace ageing players.

 

IMWT

[Hafnia]

For me it seems that many fans are a bit hesitant to accept the fact that under the previous stewardship we were and always going to be 5th-10th candidates. If that was fine and however we achieved that wasn't an issue then Moyes was the man. I get that.

 

It seems now that too many are using the lull that we are experiencing as some for of justfication in their tentative feelings towards a relegated manager taking the managers role.

 

For me I think its ridiculously short sighted. I would have accepted 10th-12th under Martinez as a trade off for the newer possesion based brand of football we are seeing.

 

I can't handle the pragmatic attitude many fans have adopted because of an 11 year brain washing process that has many fans thinking that what we had was the best we can expect.

 

We have a new manager that dares to dream, dares to go for the win away from home at top 4 clubs... Just look at the way other clubs view us now! They don't think "plucky old Everton, lets try and keep Baines and Pienaar quiet and hope fellaini has a quiet game".

 

Look at the injuries we have had to put up with! Baines, Jags, Barkley, Deulofeu, Lukaku, Coleman, Distin, Gibson, Kone, Oviedo.... its amazing we have even stayed in contention for so long - apply the same restrictions to any of the teams above us and it all comes down to strength in depth - which we haven't got.

 

Anyone who considers looking at comparing "statistics" of our new manager needs to find one that measures "BOTTLE" - lets say a % uplift in the amount of belief that the players have in going to the likes of the emirates, old trafford, stamford bridge and having a go... I work with stats every day and trust me - there isn't one to measure this.

 

Just enjoy watching a bright young manager input his fresh ideologies on a group of players who were zombified into playing a brand of football that won few admirers. Go on other forums and see the kudos we are getting - speak to Liverpool fans and ask what they think of our new manager and team...

 

Sometimes I think some people are just too desperate to justify their loyalty to a manager who had none for us - get over it. He will be proven to be the manager that he really is. Just like Martinez will be proven to be the manager he really is.

[duncanmckenzieismagic]

 

You have to consider that this is still our first year of transition though. You cant expect to implement a philopshy in a little under 9 months. Expecatations after our start to the season soared and i think now reality has hit us. We are slowly bringing in the type of players Martinez needs to implement his style but as ever our problem seems to be finding a constant goal threat.

 

I said in another thread we really need to be looking at Strikers who play similarly to Naismith rather than Lukaku's or Traore's. Naisy has done well and would still be a good rotation option but we need someone of quality to take us to the next level (i know, how many times has that been said) It pains me to say but it works so well for the shite with Suarez and Sturridge because they link with the midifelder so well. If you look at their attributes, they are essentially midfielders. Having a 6ft + striker who is going to bully defences are a thing of the past, which is why i dont think Lukaku will become the player he wants to be unless he sorts his touch and technique out, hes still young and can adapt his game to this but "Droga esq" players i.e powerful, arent going to get you that far anymore IMO.

 

We also need more creativity. I think Pienaar can give us this, but when playing against the big boys its painfully obvious he isnt a LW anymore. He just doesnt have the pace. I think he could still be effective behind the striker but even then he is on borrowed time. He is what? 32 now?

 

It will be an interesting Summer for sure, we should have atleast £20m to spend based on players who have been sold. Whether that will be spent remains to be seen but there are key area's of the team that need strengthening in order to improve quality and to replace ageing players.

 

IMWT

 

 

It certainly will, I expect it to be the busiest window for as long as I can remember. The squad is going to need a major overhaul in the summer if only to replace the loan players, it will be interesting to see what Roberto has up his sleave.

 

Probably the worst time to buy players as well so BK will have to use his negotiating skills to the max!

[GoodisonRoad]

 

 

It certainly will, I expect it to be the busiest window for as long as I can remember. The squad is going to need a major overhaul in the summer if only to replace the loan players, it will be interesting to see what Roberto has up his sleave.

 

Probably the worst time to buy players as well so BK will have to use his negotiating skills to the max!

 

Completely forgot about the World cup. Christ, it will be interesting to see what Martinez pulls out the bag!

 

Like you say, with losing loan players adding to the fact we have a fair few players the wrong side of 30 and a few more heading that way its vital that we add to the squad.

[duncanmckenzieismagic]

For me it seems that many fans are a bit hesitant to accept the fact that under the previous stewardship we were and always going to be 5th-10th candidates. If that was fine and however we achieved that wasn't an issue then Moyes was the man. I get that.

 

It seems now that too many are using the lull that we are experiencing as some for of justfication in their tentative feelings towards a relegated manager taking the managers role.

 

For me I think its ridiculously short sighted. I would have accepted 10th-12th under Martinez as a trade off for the newer possesion based brand of football we are seeing.

 

I can't handle the pragmatic attitude many fans have adopted because of an 11 year brain washing process that has many fans thinking that what we had was the best we can expect.

 

We have a new manager that dares to dream, dares to go for the win away from home at top 4 clubs... Just look at the way other clubs view us now! They don't think "plucky old Everton, lets try and keep Baines and Pienaar quiet and hope fellaini has a quiet game".

 

Look at the injuries we have had to put up with! Baines, Jags, Barkley, Deulofeu, Lukaku, Coleman, Distin, Gibson, Kone, Oviedo.... its amazing we have even stayed in contention for so long - apply the same restrictions to any of the teams above us and it all comes down to strength in depth - which we haven't got.

 

Anyone who considers looking at comparing "statistics" of our new manager needs to find one that measures "BOTTLE" - lets say a % uplift in the amount of belief that the players have in going to the likes of the emirates, old trafford, stamford bridge and having a go... I work with stats every day and trust me - there isn't one to measure this.

 

Just enjoy watching a bright young manager input his fresh ideologies on a group of players who were zombified into playing a brand of football that won few admirers. Go on other forums and see the kudos we are getting - speak to Liverpool fans and ask what they think of our new manager and team...

 

Sometimes I think some people are just too desperate to justify their loyalty to a manager who had none for us - get over it. He will be proven to be the manager that he really is. Just like Martinez will be proven to be the manager he really is.

 

 

I can only speak for myself but its a lot more simplistic than that

 

Roberto is doing a "phenominal" job, the "incredible" football is easier on the eye and his positivity is a breath of fresh air but the result is exactly the same.

Its the same old bad luck stories and the same old failings and until we can find a way of turning all that possesion into goals then nothing is going to change anytime soon. We are still coming up short when it really matters

 

Im not saying that because I have been brainwashed by Moyes I am saying it because the stats dont lie. We have a decent starting XI but no depth to it and so we are never going to be able to sustain a prolonged push for the top 4

 

None of that of cause is Martinez's fault, but until we can give him a Suarez or a Rooney or an Aguero then I just cant see how we can compete

[Hafnia]

 

 

It certainly will, I expect it to be the busiest window for as long as I can remember. The squad is going to need a major overhaul in the summer if only to replace the loan players, it will be interesting to see what Roberto has up his sleave.

 

Probably the worst time to buy players as well so BK will have to use his negotiating skills to the max!

 

I have taken it easy on kenwright purely for the fact he made the best managerial acquisition he could have made as a chairman.

 

However... the right manager needs the right level of backing. I'm not unrealistic, I know we have had to work hard to recover the financial mess we were in and moyes deserves his credit for that - there, i've said it.

 

This next window is going to be huge for us. I don't want to hear soundbites from RM saying BK is supportive etc etc - we've worn that t shirt for too long and the fans don't need to hear someone else towing the party line. I expect to see us go for a striker with all the tools needed to take us to the next level that Liverpool are currently realising - pace, intelligence, finishing.

[Matt]

For me it seems that many fans are a bit hesitant to accept the fact that under the previous stewardship we were and always going to be 5th-10th candidates. If that was fine and however we achieved that wasn't an issue then Moyes was the man. I get that.

 

It seems now that too many are using the lull that we are experiencing as some for of justfication in their tentative feelings towards a relegated manager taking the managers role. Not at all the case for me

 

For me I think its ridiculously short sighted. I would have accepted 10th-12th under Martinez as a trade off for the newer possesion based brand of football we are seeing. I think I initially said 11th for the 1st season, considering the changes we had undergone during the summer. The slip over recent weeks in unsurprising considering our squad size. However, Ive never been a fan of possession based football, its boring. Thats just my take on it, pointless passing is boring. This is one of the "3 things" I mentioned above, regarding changes made. But at the end of the day, we're in the same predicament - dominating games without finishing them off, something that happened a lot under Moyes too.

 

I can't handle the pragmatic attitude many fans have adopted because of an 11 year brain washing process that has many fans thinking that what we had was the best we can expect.

 

We have a new manager that dares to dream, dares to go for the win away from home at top 4 clubs... Just look at the way other clubs view us now! They don't think "plucky old Everton, lets try and keep Baines and Pienaar quiet and hope fellaini has a quiet game". This is also one of the 3 things I was mentioning, though if I'm going to go into details I might as well put my mini-blog up now, without the facts to back up the statements

 

Look at the injuries we have had to put up with! Baines, Jags, Barkley, Deulofeu, Lukaku, Coleman, Distin, Gibson, Kone, Oviedo.... its amazing we have even stayed in contention for so long - apply the same restrictions to any of the teams above us and it all comes down to strength in depth - which we haven't got. Agreed, we've been incredibly unlucky with injuries, but Martinez has to take responsibility here too - he signed a replacement striker who is crocked, and he has rushed people back too soon - mistakes we saw Moyes make too by the way.

 

Anyone who considers looking at comparing "statistics" of our new manager needs to find one that measures "BOTTLE" - lets say a % uplift in the amount of belief that the players have in going to the likes of the emirates, old trafford, stamford bridge and having a go... I work with stats every day and trust me - there isn't one to measure this. Completely agree with you here, his approach is commendable and one of the reason Im so happy to have him as our manager. But he needs backing and this summer will be huge.

 

Just enjoy watching a bright young manager input his fresh ideologies on a group of players who were zombified into playing a brand of football that won few admirers. Go on other forums and see the kudos we are getting - speak to Liverpool fans and ask what they think of our new manager and team... Dont care who gives us kudos, this isnt a popularity contest, its football. I want to win games and if that means winning ugly, like we did under Moyes sometimes, so be it.

 

Sometimes I think some people are just too desperate to justify their loyalty to a manager who had none for us - get over it. He will be proven to be the manager that he really is. Just like Martinez will be proven to be the manager he really is.

Im assuming that is aimed at me so my responses are in bold

Edited February 24, 2014 by Matt

[Hafnia]

 

 

I can only speak for myself but its a lot more simplistic than that

 

Roberto is doing a "phenominal" job, the "incredible" football is easier on the eye and his positivity is a breath of fresh air but the result is exactly the same.

Its the same old bad luck stories and the same old failings and until we can find a way of turning all that possesion into goals then nothing is going to change anytime soon. We are still coming up short when it really matters

 

Im not saying that because I have been brainwashed by Moyes I am saying it because the stats dont lie. We have a decent starting XI but no depth to it and so we are never going to be able to sustain a prolonged push for the top 4

 

None of that of cause is Martinez's fault, but until we can give him a Suarez or a Rooney or an Aguero then I just cant see how we can compete

 

Agree, we need that icing on top of a lovely cake that is being baked. If we had one of those 3 players we would be top 4 - no question at all.

[Hafnia]

Im assuming that is aimed at me so my responses are in bold

 

Not directed at you, but if it seems to have created the debate then its relevant.

 

I don't think there is a right nor wrong. Its about beliefs. I was bought into Everton at a time we played the best football the club has possibly seen - that is now my DNA as an Everton fan. I'm not going to accept the Moyes principles - that is not Everton for me.

 

If you were bought into Everton at the time of Walker, Royles brief reign and then the Kendall/Smith demise, then I understand the acceptance of Moyes appreciation - but I don't believe its right. Accepting his principles is an insult to the traditions of the club.

 

My acceptance of Moyes to a degree has turned into bitterness in the way that things are now transpiring that he was denying our history as some sort of Albatross he could do without. Isn't it great that one of the most cutting chants "you've never won f%^$ all" can't be aimed at us... Look at the faces of the Newcastle fans when that is hammered at them - there is no come back.

 

We may not win anything with Martinez - but I honestly think our chances are massively improved. Moyes was like a boxer who wanted to go the distance, Martinez is the one with the punchers chance who will try and knock the other one out.

[duncanmckenzieismagic]

http://www.liverpoolecho.co.uk/sport/football/football-news/everton-fc-analysis-blues-try-6738716

 

Seems that this article fits nicely in here

[Hafnia]

http://www.liverpoolecho.co.uk/sport/football/football-news/everton-fc-analysis-blues-try-6738716

 

Seems that this article fits nicely in here

 

was just about to post that. Yep, totally agree with that article - extremely well written and touches on the generational aspect - which I think is the other way around to be honest.

 

Younger fans unlucky enough to have supported the club through the walter smith era who didn't see us win leagues are more pragamatic than the 38+ fans who seen us batter the likes of Man United 5-0 at home on the way to winning the league. I'm a footballing snob and i'm proud of it.

[MC11]

For me it seems that many fans are a bit hesitant to accept the fact that under the previous stewardship we were and always going to be 5th-10th candidates. If that was fine and however we achieved that wasn't an issue then Moyes was the man. I get that. It seems now that too many are using the lull that we are experiencing as some for of justfication in their tentative feelings towards a relegated manager taking the managers role. For me I think its ridiculously short sighted. I would have accepted 10th-12th under Martinez as a trade off for the newer possesion based brand of football we are seeing. I can't handle the pragmatic attitude many fans have adopted because of an 11 year brain washing process that has many fans thinking that what we had was the best we can expect. We have a new manager that dares to dream, dares to go for the win away from home at top 4 clubs... Just look at the way other clubs view us now! They don't think "plucky old Everton, lets try and keep Baines and Pienaar quiet and hope fellaini has a quiet game". Look at the injuries we have had to put up with! Baines, Jags, Barkley, Deulofeu, Lukaku, Coleman, Distin, Gibson, Kone, Oviedo.... its amazing we have even stayed in contention for so long - apply the same restrictions to any of the teams above us and it all comes down to strength in depth - which we haven't got. Anyone who considers looking at comparing "statistics" of our new manager needs to find one that measures "BOTTLE" - lets say a % uplift in the amount of belief that the players have in going to the likes of the emirates, old trafford, stamford bridge and having a go... I work with stats every day and trust me - there isn't one to measure this. Just enjoy watching a bright young manager input his fresh ideologies on a group of players who were zombified into playing a brand of football that won few admirers. Go on other forums and see the kudos we are getting - speak to Liverpool fans and ask what they think of our new manager and team... Sometimes I think some people are just too desperate to justify their loyalty to a manager who had none for us - get over it. He will be proven to be the manager that he really is. Just like Martinez will be proven to be the manager he really is.

That is one of the worst comments I've read in a while. Accepting a mid table finish to see good passing football. Not for me. If you want the benefits from the nice football you have to put the ball in the back of the net. Of late we have looked toothless at times.

[Hafnia]

That is one of the worst comments I've read in a while. Accepting a mid table finish to see good passing football. Not for me. If you want the benefits from the nice football you have to put the ball in the back of the net. Of late we have looked toothless at times.

 

How old are you? "worst comments for a while" - that in itself is the worst comment in itself. Do you actually read the rest of other peoples posts?

 

I take the time to quantify my statements and you just come out with the usual juvenile nonsense. Grow up. Use the forum to exhange debate, not to antogonize other posters.

 

To make allowances for your I.Q - 10th-12th was acceptable for me in the sense of allowing for the change in footballing principles that will reap reward in the long run. A little bit like throwing moss killer on a lawn - it will look worse for a period in order to look better in the long run... understand it a bit better now?