Goodbye To The Gravy Guzzler

[Romey 1878]

http://www.teamtalk.com/news/everton-announce-arrival-of-new-goalkeeping-coach

[Matt]

Just now, Romey 1878 said:

http://www.teamtalk.com/news/everton-announce-arrival-of-new-goalkeeping-coach

Didn’t Dunc post that yesterday in the Longest Everton thread?

[Romey 1878]

Just now, Matt said:

Didn’t Dunc post that yesterday in the Longest Everton thread?

Probably, I'm still in a daze after watching us play "football".

[Matt]

Just a question after the “safety first” approaches we’ve seen over, admittedly, a busy period; if Koeman or Unsworth had served up that shite, would they get the same defence as Sam is getting now? Because if it was one of the other two, there’d be calls for a sacking I’m pretty sure 

[Romey 1878]

Just now, Matt said:

Just a question after the “safety first” approaches we’ve seen over, admittedly, a busy period; if Koeman or Unsworth had served up that shite, would they get the same defence as Sam is getting now? Because if it was one of the other two, there’d be calls for a sacking I’m pretty sure 

They did serve up that shite and they didn't get the same defence. So, question answered!

You can only play that shit for so long and get results. Yesterday it came to a shuddering halt but I don't see the approach changing, unfortunately. This is what we're stuck with.

I'm clinging on to the hope the approach will change after the transfer window, but do I truly believe it'll change? No, we'll just lump the ball up to a different striker than DCL. We'll still have an ineffectual Sigurdsson out wide. We'll still be relying on a goalkeeper to keep us in a game and hope we can nick something down the other end. We'll still have no creativity in the middle of the park. We'll still leave all our pace at home or on the bench, despite that being helpful if you're going to sit back and defend.

It was soul-destroying watching us getting battered every week, but it's soul-destroying in a completely different way watching us under this man.

[Bailey]

2 minutes ago, Matt said:

Just a question after the “safety first” approaches we’ve seen over, admittedly, a busy period; if Koeman or Unsworth had served up that shite, would they get the same defence as Sam is getting now? Because if it was one of the other two, there’d be calls for a sacking I’m pretty sure 

 

He should be seriously questioned after the last 3 games. We aren't keeping it tight enough at the back and we aren't creating enough chances ourselves.

I know there have been a couple of illnesses but he has been tinkering with a successful (ish) side and it has backfired on him. He has slowly started to take out the players that made us successful during that period and in some cases replacing them with players that clearly arent fully fit.

 

[Matt]

5 minutes ago, Romey 1878 said:

They did serve up that shite and they didn't get the same defence. So, question answered!

You can only play that shit for so long and get results. Yesterday it came to a shuddering halt but I don't see the approach changing, unfortunately. This is what we're stuck with.

I'm clinging on to the hope the approach will change after the transfer window, but do I truly believe it'll change? No, we'll just lump the ball up to a different striker than DCL. We'll still have an ineffectual Sigurdsson out wide. We'll still be relying on a goalkeeper to keep us in a game and hope we can nick something down the other end. We'll still have no creativity in the middle of the park. We'll still leave all our pace at home or on the bench, despite that being helpful if you're going to sit back and defend.

It was soul-destroying watching us getting battered every week, but it's soul-destroying in a completely different way watching us under this man.

One or two have defended his position (not his tactics) because of what he inherited, hence me asking. 

Otherwise i completely agree with you

[Formby]

I was a big supporter of the Allardyce appointment at the outset and still am. A few weeks ago, I honestly thought we would go down. I had never seen us play so poorly under Koeman and Unsworth (well, actually, I have, but it was about 1980). I can now see us staying up. That's all I care about at the moment. The squad is terrible so Allardyce hasn't much to work with. All those saying we should giving it a good go at these 'relegation' teams need to temper expectations. We have a few 'good' players, some okay prospects, and that's it. We have zero going forward. Without significant additions, we have no choice but to keep every game tight. Sad, but don't blame Allardyce for that.

 

[Romey 1878]

http://www.liverpoolecho.co.uk/sport/football/football-news/sam-allardyce-admits-wont-see-14096379

Next season... 

[Romey 1878]

Just now, Formby said:

I was a big supporter of the Allardyce appointment at the outset and still am. A few weeks ago, I honestly thought we would go down. I had never seen us play so poorly under Koeman and Unsworth (well, actually, I have, but it was about 1980). I can now see us staying up. That's all I care about at the moment. The squad is terrible so Allardyce hasn't much to work with. All those saying we should giving it a good go at these 'relegation' teams need to temper expectations. We have a few 'good' players, some okay prospects, and that's it. We have zero going forward. Without significant additions, we have no choice but to keep every game tight. Sad, but don't blame Allardyce for that.

 

Are you honestly saying that we don't have players to attack a team like West Brom, a team that hadn't won since August?

I'm not even talking going gung ho or anything like that, but entering their half and looking like we wanted to win would have been nice. If we don't have players to do that then things are worse than I thought.

[Matt]

27 minutes ago, Romey 1878 said:

http://www.liverpoolecho.co.uk/sport/football/football-news/sam-allardyce-admits-wont-see-14096379

Next season... 

Bemoaning no goalscorers but fields 8 defensive players at kick off?  

[duncanmckenzieismagic]

Just a question after the “safety first” approaches we’ve seen over, admittedly, a busy period; if Koeman or Unsworth had served up that shite, would they get the same defence as Sam is getting now? Because if it was one of the other two, there’d be calls for a sacking I’m pretty sure 

Koeman no, because this is his squad, he created this mess. Unsworth yes , for the exact same reason I am giving Allardyce slack, it’s needs must and I would rather watch us serve up this dross and pick up points and climb to safety than see us getting hammered every week and drop into the Championship

[c1982]

16 hours ago, duncanmckenzieismagic said:

We need more than a striker, we have absolutely nothing down the left

 

Agree. Until we sort our full-backs out, we won’t be an attacking force. Quality, attacking full-backs are the difference in this league in my opinion. Look at us since Coleman’s injury. Look at United without Valencia. The major difference between Man C this season to last is that Pep saw this and invested heavily. I think Kenny is more than capable down the right, with the hope that Seamus can return at some point but Cuco is simply not good enough. Credit where it’s due, he’s filled in and done okay defensively out of position but he, and I’ll say this about Baines too, offers no out ball on the left and, as a result, attacks lose any momentum - in Cuco’s case as he wants to cut back onto his right foot and Baines just doesn’t have the legs. We need to have the legs on each flank then obviously a reliable target for them to hit/work off.

Once we’ve got a natural left back with a proper engine then I expect we’ll see a more expansive Everton.

[nogs]

1 minute ago, c1982 said:

Agree. Until we sort our full-backs out, we won’t be an attacking force. Quality, attacking full-backs are the difference in this league in my opinion. Look at us since Coleman’s injury. Look at United without Valencia. The major difference between Man C this season to last is that Pep saw this and invested heavily. I think Kenny is more than capable down the right, with the hope that Seamus can return at some point but Cuco is simply not good enough. Credit where it’s due, he’s filled in and done okay defensively out of position but he, and I’ll say this about Baines too, offers no out ball on the left and, as a result, attacks lose any momentum - in Cuco’s case as he wants to cut back onto his right foot and Baines just doesn’t have the legs. We need to have the legs on each flank then obviously a reliable target for them to hit/work off.

Once we’ve got a natural left back with a proper engine then I expect we’ll see a more expansive Everton.

With all respect, that's a massive over simplification of what it is that's making us shite. 

[duncanmckenzieismagic]

With all respect, that's a massive over simplification of what it is that's making us shite. 

It may not be the only reason but it’s still a very valid point

[c1982]

5 minutes ago, nogs said:

With all respect, that's a massive over simplification of what it is that's making us shite. 

Of course but what I’m saying is, we all know we need a striker but if we don’t sort the left back position out too then there’s almost no point having that striker because we’ll have the same problems!

I personally think we need 3 players in Jan (which has already been alluded to by others and sounds like the areas EFC have identified too) a striker, left back and central midfielder. We could also do with selling or at least loaning out at least 5. I don’t know a lot about Tosun but like the sound of him, N’Zonzi should be a no brainer in my opinion and then this leaves the left back position... I just hope we can sign quality here and not Patrick van Ahnalt from Palace (who I fear Sam with target).

[EFC-Paul]

58 minutes ago, nogs said:

that's a massive over simplification 

Nogs aka Barry Allen 

[nogs]

45 minutes ago, c1982 said:

Of course but what I’m saying is, we all know we need a striker but if we don’t sort the left back position out too then there’s almost no point having that striker because we’ll have the same problems!

I personally think we need 3 players in Jan (which has already been alluded to by others and sounds like the areas EFC have identified too) a striker, left back and central midfielder. We could also do with selling or at least loaning out at least 5. I don’t know a lot about Tosun but like the sound of him, N’Zonzi should be a no brainer in my opinion and then this leaves the left back position... I just hope we can sign quality here and not Patrick van Ahnalt from Palace (who I fear Sam with target).

Yeah I agree with that. That was my point. A LB alone will not improve us. A LB and striker won't be enough either in my opinion. BBC gossip column quoted the Star as saying Allardyce was cooling on N'Zonzi to focus on LB and striker. I think that would be a mistake, we simply have to improve on the quality we have in the centre of the park if we are going to improve the football we play. And we haven't even mentioned CB yet. 

[Newty82]

2 hours ago, Matt said:

Just a question after the “safety first” approaches we’ve seen over, admittedly, a busy period; if Koeman or Unsworth had served up that shite, would they get the same defence as Sam is getting now? Because if it was one of the other two, there’d be calls for a sacking I’m pretty sure 

With them, we were playing shit AND getting beat. Well, smashed actually.

With Sam, the safety first approach has worked until yesterday in terms of results. Mostly.

I don't think anyone has defended the syle of play, but shown more understanding towards it's necessity than others.

As always, I'll wait before judging. If we go another 8 games and only lose one, I'll not complain too loudly even though I expect an improvement in football as we move along.

If we lose a load of games AND play total defensive 7-2-1 shite, then yes, I'll be as pissed off as Haf if we resign Lukaku or PeteO if Gana wins Player of the Year.

[duncanmckenzieismagic]

Sums it up nicely for me

http://www.liverpoolecho.co.uk/sport/football/football-news/everton-verdict-sam-allardyces-honeymoon-14096474

[pete0]

3 hours ago, Bailey said:

He should be seriously questioned after the last 3 games. We aren't keeping it tight enough at the back and we aren't creating enough chances ourselves.

It's a big squad and he's just used it during a busy period. If we had Holgate and Williams playing every game over Xmas you'd risk them burning out and getting injured. Come February I'd expect them to play every week.  If anything Sam has proved there's players here who aren't good enough. Michael Keane being the main one. 

[Formby]

3 hours ago, Romey 1878 said:

Are you honestly saying that we don't have players to attack a team like West Brom, a team that hadn't won since August?

I'm not even talking going gung ho or anything like that, but entering their half and looking like we wanted to win would have been nice. If we don't have players to do that then things are worse than I thought.

I don’t think we have the attacking players to hit a barn door. No faith in any of them. 

[Bailey]

6 minutes ago, pete0 said:

It's a big squad and he's just used it during a busy period. If we had Holgate and Williams playing every game over Xmas you'd risk them burning out and getting injured. Come February I'd expect them to play every week.  If anything Sam has proved there's players here who aren't good enough. Michael Keane being the main one. 

I get your point and I do understand some rotation but Holgate has barely played and Williams has had some rest time. At least play Jags and Holgate etc not swapping both in and out or moving to a 5 and back. 

Likewise in the midfield and up front swap like for like where possible. Against West Ham and the 2nd half against Swansea we had Gueye, Rooney and Davies in the midfield. A DM, a controlling midfielder and a box to box type player. Don't then bring in another DM and use Rooney as a 10, or 3 DMs.

Rotation is needed at times like these but he has gone about it all wrong in the last 3 games in my opinion (albeit illness at Chelsea can' be helped).

[nogs]

2 hours ago, duncanmckenzieismagic said:

Sums it up nicely for me

http://www.liverpoolecho.co.uk/sport/football/football-news/everton-verdict-sam-allardyces-honeymoon-14096474

 

It's worrying that Allardyce doesn't seem to know the best formation to play with this squad, which Koeman didn't either. To a certain extent I can understand that given how imbalanced our squad is. But come on - playing 4-3-3 with three DMs?? Against Bournemouth? And then bemoaning a lack of cutting edge?? 

What I really don't get is that we have plenty of wide options. So against the likes of West Brom and Bournemouth, why not play Rooney and Sigurdsson with Gana for cover in the middle of a 4-3-3, and then two proper wingers either side of DCL or Niasse? To me that's the obvious way to go to actually threaten the many average teams in the Prem. 

[London Blue]

2 hours ago, Formby said:

I don’t think we have the attacking players to hit a barn door. No faith in any of them. 

Lookman, Vlasic, Siggy, DCL, Rooney, Lennon and to a lesser extent Davies,  I am excluding Bolasie as he is still coming back from injury, are all effective and viable attacking options.

Fat Sam has chosen not to use them in sufficient numbers and had formations so defensive as to render any serious chance of winning mute.

When you play 3 at the back against the worst team in the league, or 8 defensive players against a team that has not won in 9 games and has a leaky defense then you are making a statement that you do not think you can win and are are of little attacking threat. As a result teams gain in confidence against us.

Because we don't use the players we have with pace and ability to stretch defenses, and we lack attacking outlets the play gets congested in a packed midfield where our creative / attacking players have little time and space to launch successful attacks. These break down and the opposition comes back to attack us again.

That is on Fat Sam, by choosing to be so negative,  to not use the players he has, his brand of hoofball is an anathema to everything our football club should stand for. 

[duncanmckenzieismagic]

It's worrying that Allardyce doesn't seem to know the best formation to play with this squad, which Koeman didn't either. To a certain extent I can understand that given how imbalanced our squad is. But come on - playing 4-3-3 with three DMs?? Against Bournemouth? And then bemoaning a lack of cutting edge?? 
What I really don't get is that we have plenty of wide options. So against the likes of West Brom and Bournemouth, why not play Rooney and Sigurdsson with Gana for cover in the middle of a 4-3-3, and then two proper wingers either side of DCL or Niasse? To me that's the obvious way to go to actually threaten the many average teams in the Prem. 

Probably because aside from Lennon none of our wide players offer any protection to the full backs , both Koeman and Unsworth tried it and the result was we got battered every week

[London Blue]

57 minutes ago, duncanmckenzieismagic said:

 

Probably because aside from Lennon none of our wide players offer any protection to the full backs , both Koeman and Unsworth tried it and the result was we got battered every week

 

 

Playing attacking wingers is not the reason we were so poor under Koeman and Unsworth.

In fact we rarely played two attacking wingers this season.

[c1982]

5 hours ago, nogs said:

Yeah I agree with that. That was my point. A LB alone will not improve us. A LB and striker won't be enough either in my opinion. BBC gossip column quoted the Star as saying Allardyce was cooling on N'Zonzi to focus on LB and striker. I think that would be a mistake, we simply have to improve on the quality we have in the centre of the park if we are going to improve the football we play. And we haven't even mentioned CB yet. 

I would like N’Zonzi but if we didn’t strengthen in midfield, I wouldn’t be too worried as believe the midfielders would look better with a quality left back and striker anyway. There’s a lack of options currently when in possession and the ball comes back at us too easily as a result of too many aimless balls to an overworked ‘prospect’ - a more balanced team with out balls on each flank and ahead will hopefully show the quality that we know we have already in central midfield.

[Paddock]

2 hours ago, duncanmckenzieismagic said:

 

Probably because aside from Lennon none of our wide players offer any protection to the full backs , both Koeman and Unsworth tried it and the result was we got battered every week

 

 

This is absolutely bang on for me- we’re stuck between a rock and a hard place because we are playing with a kid at right back and a poor player playing out of position at left back- when we play our wide players we get dry bummed down both flanks as there is zero protection for 2 vunerable full backs.

[Formby]

3 hours ago, London Blue said:

Lookman, Vlasic, Siggy, DCL, Rooney, Lennon and to a lesser extent Davies,  I am excluding Bolasie as he is still coming back from injury, are all effective and viable attacking options.

Fat Sam has chosen not to use them in sufficient numbers and had formations so defensive as to render any serious chance of winning mute.

And which of those would you trust to hit the barn door? Lookman and Vlasic have shown promise but have mostly looked out of their depth. Rooney is 32 and on his last legs. DCL is just not a finisher. Lennon? Siggy? You must be joking. We have no real threat up front. Hopefully, that will be soon addressed.

Hopefully, Allardyce will become more progressive when we have a more balanced squad and more threat. If not, he can go, too. Every fan would like to see us playing like Barcelona.