Ciro Immobile

[StevO]

2 hours ago, markjazzbassist said:

yeah the lack of finance knowledge on here shows how as fans we are lost when it comes to these things.  Carlo has mentioned it's a 5 year plan and project.  I would assume it's because he knows there's a ton of deadwood that needs removed and it can't all happen immediately, also he need time to build and mold the team, which takes time.  he realizes we can't do a walsh and try and buy a first team in 1 window.  

 

as for as buy to sell we are already up against FFP and won't get the ruling Man City got (we are honest and would give them the info they need and be indicted), so we do need to buy to sell because during turnover where we are fighting for Europa and CL but not making it yet (this year, possible next year) we will lose top players (Digne, Richarlison, etc), it's just how it goes.  until we reach CL a couple years in a row players will leave, that's just reality.  so yes we must always have an upside unless they are role players on the cheap (like thiago silva for a year or 2 or something).

I’m sorry Mark, but if you think you have a huge understanding of the finances of the club then I’m baffled. 
Go read the clubs accounts over the last few years, you’ll see how the finances work. 

Yes FFP is in play, but it’s not like we are trying to buy Neymar for £200m. 
 

Im glad Moshiri, Brands and Carlo are more ambitious than you. 

[Matt]

15 minutes ago, Makis said:

That doesn't really change anything. Annual payments will end up totaling 150 million no matter how you slice it. Contracts would be around 4 years, 5 max.

Actually changes quite a bit depending on how deals are structured. If the bulk is towards the end of the payment scheme, we might have sold the player by that time. Won’t argue with the contract part though. 

[markjazzbassist]

26 minutes ago, StevO said:

I’m sorry Mark, but if you think you have a huge understanding of the finances of the club then I’m baffled. 
Go read the clubs accounts over the last few years, you’ll see how the finances work. 

Yes FFP is in play, but it’s not like we are trying to buy Neymar for £200m. 
 

Im glad Moshiri, Brands and Carlo are more ambitious than you. 

More ambitious?  Lol.  Ambition has nothing to do with being smart financially. Chelsea are ambitious and stockpile young talent they sell on for profit, they are both financially smart and ambitious.  That’s what I’m talking about.  Not becoming west ham and just throwing money at any player that feigns interest hoping for a silver bullet.  Most of the people on here live in fairy land thinking we’ll spend 200m and be in CL and win the league next year.  It takes time, strategy and patience to achieve something like that.  Liverpool didn’t happen overnight.  They saw plenty of great players sold during their ascent because they knew it was part of the grander plan.  But go ahead and enjoy the short sighted money spunk and subsequent 10th place finish.  

[Shukes]

3 hours ago, Makis said:

You seriously think Immobile will make us a top four side? If not then your whole example is just a red herring. Can't think of many examples where one signing had such  a huge impact for a team. And almost always on hindsight the squad was much better than what it looked like (e.g. Cantona to ManU).

Haven't said that anywhere at anytime. 
I really think your misreading my point mate. 
 

My point is that we as a club should not be thinking of buying players to make profit. 
We should be buying players to make our team better... whatever age they are. That should be our primary business plan, and to be honest I really think it is.

I don’t have any idea if Immobile will make us better, as I don’t know enough about him. But my original point stands, a player at 30 should be in his prime, not past it.

I’ll leave it there though mate. Don’t want to argue about it, it’s all just opinions at the end of the day

[StevO]

2 minutes ago, markjazzbassist said:

More ambitious?  Lol.  Ambition has nothing to do with being smart financially. Chelsea are ambitious and stockpile young talent they sell on for profit, they are both financially smart and ambitious.  That’s what I’m talking about.  Not becoming west ham and just throwing money at any player that feigns interest hoping for a silver bullet.  Most of the people on here live in fairy land thinking we’ll spend 200m and be in CL and win the league next year.  It takes time, strategy and patience to achieve something like that.  Liverpool didn’t happen overnight.  They saw plenty of great players sold during their ascent because they knew it was part of the grander plan.  But go ahead and enjoy the short sighted money spunk and subsequent 10th place finish.  

Chelsea also got banned from transfers for how they went about all of that. 

Name the people on here who think we’ll spend £200n and be in CL and win the league. Talking absolute rubbish there. Please let’s see a list. 

[Shukes]

11 minutes ago, markjazzbassist said:

More ambitious?  Lol.  Ambition has nothing to do with being smart financially. Chelsea are ambitious and stockpile young talent they sell on for profit, they are both financially smart and ambitious.  That’s what I’m talking about.  Not becoming west ham and just throwing money at any player that feigns interest hoping for a silver bullet.  Most of the people on here live in fairy land thinking we’ll spend 200m and be in CL and win the league next year.  It takes time, strategy and patience to achieve something like that.  Liverpool didn’t happen overnight.  They saw plenty of great players sold during their ascent because they knew it was part of the grander plan.  But go ahead and enjoy the short sighted money spunk and subsequent 10th place finish.  

I would say it’s far from most people on here... in fact, I would be surprised if you can find one person on this forum that thinks that. 
 

Just because we want to see our team be ambitious, doesnt mean we expect CL football next year and want us to spend 200m. But we do expect to see us aiming for the CL. You can actually quote Carlo saying the same thing. 
Same as I don’t think any of us expect Richarlison to hit 30 gaols next year, yet Carlo says that MUST be his target.

Expectation and want are two completely different things

Edit: Liverpool are one of the highest spending teams in Europe over the last decade by the way. They have literally looked for that silver bullet... and eventually found it through attrition.

[Matt]

3 minutes ago, Shukes said:

I would say it’s far from most people on here... in fact, I would be surprised if you can find one person on this forum that thinks that. 
 

Just because we want to see our team be ambitious, doesnt mean we expect CL football next year and want us to spend 200m. But we do expect to see us aiming for the CL. You can actually quote Carlo saying the same thing. 
Same as I don’t think any of us expect Richarlison to hit 30 gaols next year, yet Carlo says that MUST be his target.

Expectation and want are two completely different things

Edit: Liverpool are one of the highest spending teams in Europe over the last decade by the way. They have literally looked for that silver bullet... and eventually found it through attrition.

Bingo!

[markjazzbassist]

2 minutes ago, Shukes said:

I would say it’s far from most people on here... in fact, I would be surprised if you can find one person on this forum that thinks that. 
 

Just because we want to see our team be ambitious, doesnt mean we expect CL football next year and want us to spend 200m. But we do expect to see us aiming for the CL. You can actually quote Carlo saying the same thing. 
Same as I don’t think any of us expect Richarlison to hit 30 gaols next year, yet Carlo says that MUST be his target.

Expectation and want are two completely different things

Maybe I’m just a realist in a forum of idealists?  If we can’t even make top ten how do we go to jumping into the top 4 in one shortened summer?  I certainly don’t have that expectation, would I like it?  Of course, but this is a very tough league and all those 11 teams above us will be improving as well.  If we got Europa next year or went all in on a cup (which gets Europa as well) that would be a big step forward.  I would be very surprised if carlo said CL is the goal next year, he seems more pragmatic than that.

[Matt]

11 minutes ago, StevO said:

Chelsea also got banned from transfers for how they went about all of that. 

Name the people on here who think we’ll spend £200n and be in CL and win the league. Talking absolute rubbish there. Please let’s see a list. 

Yahtzee!

[Matt]

4 minutes ago, markjazzbassist said:

Maybe I’m just a realist in a forum of idealists?  If we can’t even make top ten how do we go to jumping into the top 4 in one shortened summer?  I certainly don’t have that expectation, would I like it?  Of course, but this is a very tough league and all those 11 teams above us will be improving as well.  If we got Europa next year or went all in on a cup (which gets Europa as well) that would be a big step forward.  I would be very surprised if carlo said CL is the goal next year, he seems more pragmatic than that.

I don’t think you’re being a realist. I think you’re being overly cautious after being burnt since Moshiri took over and his combined failure with Walsh. That’s perfectly reasonable, but so is knowing that we have to spend stupid money wisely to make the next step, which is what nearly everyone is saying 

[Shukes]

10 minutes ago, markjazzbassist said:

Maybe I’m just a realist in a forum of idealists?  If we can’t even make top ten how do we go to jumping into the top 4 in one shortened summer?  I certainly don’t have that expectation, would I like it?  Of course, but this is a very tough league and all those 11 teams above us will be improving as well.  If we got Europa next year or went all in on a cup (which gets Europa as well) that would be a big step forward.  I would be very surprised if carlo said CL is the goal next year, he seems more pragmatic than that.

I agree with all that except Carlos targets. He will be aiming to get into Europe as an absolute minimum. He will have goals that need to reached. And each one reached will be a step to the next. If he doesn’t... then he isn’t worth the money we are paying for him. 
 

Carlo is a winner, he won’t settle for just doing better than this year. Like I said... just look at his Richarlison comments, does that seem pragmatic to you?

[Shukes]

Who would have ever though a thread about Immobile would generate so much discussion haha!

This thread is anything but Imobile!

[markjazzbassist]

1 minute ago, Matt said:

I don’t think you’re being a realist. I think you’re being overly cautious after being burnt since Moshiri took over and his combined failure with Walsh. That’s perfectly reasonable, but so is knowing that we have to spend stupid money wisely to make the next step, which is what nearly everyone is saying 

the second part is where i'm confused by your viewpoint.  if we have spent large on big name players for the past 3-4 years without success, and in fact have done more damage than success (seeing as our league position is worse than "tight times" with moyes/martinez), what makes you think that this is in fact the year that that strategy pays off? 

 

i'm not advocating a moyes era system, of getting frees/loans/castoffs for pennies on the dollar.  i'm advocating the liverpool system, they bought smartly and spent decent money on players for a good few years.  it wasn't until they had arrived at CL football that they then went wild on Van Dijk/Allisson/keita/fabinho etc spending 150m+ a window.  previous to that, they in fact sold their best players as part of the bigger plan!!! coutinho and sterling being the 2 i'm talking about.  they spent money no doubt, 37m on Mane, 36m Salah, but they have also got some players on the cheap as well (Robertson, Matip, Adrian, Minamino, etc).  Notice all the players they brought in were young, Mane, Salah, Firmino, Ox, Fabinho, Keita, robertson, allisson (i'm saying 26/27 and younger is "young").  none of their big players or even rotation players were 29/30+ when they bought them.  wierd i thought you needed the old vets and steady heads?  if you look at Pep he does the same thing (in regards to age), i haven't seen City buy a player that's old, they are all young.

[Palfy]

1 hour ago, Shukes said:

I would say it’s far from most people on here... in fact, I would be surprised if you can find one person on this forum that thinks that. 
 

Just because we want to see our team be ambitious, doesnt mean we expect CL football next year and want us to spend 200m. But we do expect to see us aiming for the CL. You can actually quote Carlo saying the same thing. 
Same as I don’t think any of us expect Richarlison to hit 30 gaols next year, yet Carlo says that MUST be his target.

Expectation and want are two completely different things

Edit: Liverpool are one of the highest spending teams in Europe over the last decade by the way. They have literally looked for that silver bullet... and eventually found it through attrition.

I love it when people rattle your gage Shukes, get in son

[Shukes]

2 minutes ago, Palfy said:

I love it when people rattle your gage Shukes, get in son

I’ve started it, now I’m ducking out and letting those two fight it out haha! 
 

making a new DVD... cowards way....

[Palfy]

That reality is it doesn’t really matter what we spend on player or whether we get a free, what matters is that what ever we do it works, and that has been the problem we have seen a lot of money spent and not much of it work for us. 
But that doesn’t mean we stop trying, does Moshiri trust Ancelotti, if it’s yes then he has to back him in the transfer market, and if Ancelotti wants Immobile and he’s available then with in reason he gets him.  

[Shukes]

Don’t make me agree with you, you won’t like me if I agree with you!!

[Hafnia]

4 hours ago, Makis said:

Usmanov's money is nowhere near enough and even if he bought the club outright he couldn't pump insane amounts of money into it.

He's a multi billionaire mate....  he's already sponsored us to a decent amount.  

[markjazzbassist]

1 hour ago, Palfy said:

That reality is it doesn’t really matter what we spend on player or whether we get a free, what matters is that what ever we do it works, and that has been the problem we have seen a lot of money spent and not much of it work for us. 
But that doesn’t mean we stop trying, does Moshiri trust Ancelotti, if it’s yes then he has to back him in the transfer market, and if Ancelotti wants Immobile and he’s available then with in reason he gets him.  

this is part of my point, there hasn't been a cohesive plan in place.  under moyes he had his plan, martinez his own plan, but once we got Walsh it was just buy whatever big name is available.  didn't matter that we already had players in those positions.  Brands was supposed to bring that cohesion and make all the signings part of a bigger strategy.  At least that was my hope with the DOF that we weren't just bringing in whomever each manager wants as "their guys" each time, but that the DOF would have an overall theme to signings.  you look at Dortmund, they are kinda the poster boys with the DOF idea with managers coming and going (klopp, tuchel, favre, etc) and they are still buying and bringing through young players that are skilled and getting CL, moving some on for nice profits, challenging the league/CL/cups.   Football and business wise doing very well.  Sevilla another one like that.  That was what i was hoping for.  maybe now i'm being too idealistic in that DOF role.  maybe Brands really is just Carlo's lackey to bring the guys in he wants.  i dunno.

[Shukes]

We can’t base our game plan on failed plans. 
We can’t dampen our ambitions due to previous managers failing theirs, otherwise.... just keep those managers on.

We have a manager... at last.... who should be demanding more. We should be aiming to give him that platform. 

[Shukes]

Not disagreeing though MJB, just your post was above mine

[Palfy]

2 minutes ago, markjazzbassist said:

this is part of my point, there hasn't been a cohesive plan in place.  under moyes he had his plan, martinez his own plan, but once we got Walsh it was just buy whatever big name is available.  didn't matter that we already had players in those positions.  Brands was supposed to bring that cohesion and make all the signings part of a bigger strategy.  At least that was my hope with the DOF that we weren't just bringing in whomever each manager wants as "their guys" each time, but that the DOF would have an overall theme to signings.  you look at Dortmund, they are kinda the poster boys with the DOF idea with managers coming and going (klopp, tuchel, favre, etc) and they are still buying and bringing through young players that are skilled and getting CL, moving some on for nice profits, challenging the league/CL/cups.   Football and business wise doing very well.  Sevilla another one like that.  That was what i was hoping for.  maybe now i'm being too idealistic in that DOF role.  maybe Brands really is just Carlo's lackey to bring the guys in he wants.  i dunno.

The money spent after Martinez wasn’t on it’s own down to Walsh, Koeman Moshiri and Kenwright all had a say in the players, I think Walsh was made the scape goat on a lot of purchases that went wrong, the first 2 years under Moshiri were based on the more money we spend the better we will become. 
For that to work you need the right manager not the right DOF, whether Walsh or Brands are good DOF becomes immaterial if the manager isn’t good enough, I don’t think you’re unrealistic in your assessment, but I do believe you are misinformed if you think the clubs you have mentioned are all being successful because of the DOF. 
For me a DOF is there to facilitate the manager in his quest to improve the team, not to tell the him what players he’s going to buy for him, why would any manager be dictated to on player acquisitions by a DOF, if that was the case then Walsh should have gone before Koeman and Allardyce and Brands should have gone before Silva. 

[Cornish Steve]

9 hours ago, markjazzbassist said:

the second part is where i'm confused by your viewpoint.  if we have spent large on big name players for the past 3-4 years without success, and in fact have done more damage than success (seeing as our league position is worse than "tight times" with moyes/martinez), what makes you think that this is in fact the year that that strategy pays off? 

 

i'm not advocating a moyes era system, of getting frees/loans/castoffs for pennies on the dollar.  i'm advocating the liverpool system, they bought smartly and spent decent money on players for a good few years.  it wasn't until they had arrived at CL football that they then went wild on Van Dijk/Allisson/keita/fabinho etc spending 150m+ a window.  previous to that, they in fact sold their best players as part of the bigger plan!!! coutinho and sterling being the 2 i'm talking about.  they spent money no doubt, 37m on Mane, 36m Salah, but they have also got some players on the cheap as well (Robertson, Matip, Adrian, Minamino, etc).  Notice all the players they brought in were young, Mane, Salah, Firmino, Ox, Fabinho, Keita, robertson, allisson (i'm saying 26/27 and younger is "young").  none of their big players or even rotation players were 29/30+ when they bought them.  wierd i thought you needed the old vets and steady heads?  if you look at Pep he does the same thing (in regards to age), i haven't seen City buy a player that's old, they are all young.

As you suggest, it took a few years for the Reds' strategy to reach fruition, and that should be our expectation, too. Build a team around a strategy, knit that team together, and improve each season. This is why, personally, I would not bring in any player older than about 27, because it may be five years before we peak. By all means take advantage of experience, but use that experience to train and mature the youngsters instead of becoming dependent on it. You're right that Liverpool did not bring in older players: They had a 5-year plan.

This is the difference between a Jagielka and a Baines, guys who forever guide and encourage young teammates, versus a Sigurdsson or Walcott, who appear to be more lone rangers.

[StevO]

15 hours ago, markjazzbassist said:

the second part is where i'm confused by your viewpoint.  if we have spent large on big name players for the past 3-4 years without success, and in fact have done more damage than success (seeing as our league position is worse than "tight times" with moyes/martinez), what makes you think that this is in fact the year that that strategy pays off? 

We haven’t spent on big name players though. We’ve spent big money on average players, who have been targeted as good enough to push us on. They just haven’t been good enough. 
Gylfi if probably the only one you could say was a big name, but even that should just be considered big price, as he was still only coming in from a small club and hadn’t achieved much. 
 

The reason any of us have hope that it’ll get better? That’s what supporting your team is all about. Why would you not have hope it’s gets better? Go watch the Sunderland documentary on Amazon. Relegation after relegation. The fans turn up thinking this could be our year. 
Liverpool fans every year for the last 30 years have turned up thinking this is the year we’ll win. You’ve got to have that, otherwise what’s the point? I turned up at the golf course yesterday thinking I’ll grab a couple of birdies today. I only made one par. You’ve got to have that hope that the next time it’s better than before. 

Throw into that mix that we know we are a club with money to spend, in the current climate there won’t be too many, so we could have a little advantage there. We also have Brands, he’s been involved in championship winning teams before. And the biggest, most different reason to anything we’ve had at the club since Howard in the 80’s, we’ve got Carlo fucking Ancelotti. He’s not here to grab a top half finish. 
 

I’ll say one thing though. If, with a billionaire owner, a successful DoF and Carlo, we still can’t be successful; then it’s time to give up. We’ve got everything in place now. Everything to give us what we’ve been craving for so long. For decades. It’s all here, we just need them to get it right. 

[StevO]

12 hours ago, markjazzbassist said:

this is part of my point, there hasn't been a cohesive plan in place.  under moyes he had his plan, martinez his own plan, but once we got Walsh it was just buy whatever big name is available.  didn't matter that we already had players in those positions.  Brands was supposed to bring that cohesion and make all the signings part of a bigger strategy.  At least that was my hope with the DOF that we weren't just bringing in whomever each manager wants as "their guys" each time, but that the DOF would have an overall theme to signings.  you look at Dortmund, they are kinda the poster boys with the DOF idea with managers coming and going (klopp, tuchel, favre, etc) and they are still buying and bringing through young players that are skilled and getting CL, moving some on for nice profits, challenging the league/CL/cups.   Football and business wise doing very well.  Sevilla another one like that.  That was what i was hoping for.  maybe now i'm being too idealistic in that DOF role.  maybe Brands really is just Carlo's lackey to bring the guys in he wants.  i dunno.

The clubs you’ve mentioned have been doing this for a long time. English football has only really been doing this not much more than ten years, at Everton probably only half of that. 
These kind of changes in a football club take time to get of the ground. Changing a management structure in any organisation can take years to be successful, but when your successes and failures happen on a pitch of a weekend afternoon it’s a lot harder again. 

[Romey 1878]

Mark, your view on this is totally out of character for you - you usually shit rainbows .

[Hafnia]

Fwiw.... had my first YouTube viewing of this lad.   His finishing sticks out as being somewhat assassin like.   Big enough, not necessarily quick.....  good movement. 

[markjazzbassist]

2 hours ago, Romey 1878 said:

Mark, your view on this is totally out of character for you - you usually shit rainbows .

I’m a unicorn what can I say

[Bailey]

20 hours ago, markjazzbassist said:

the second part is where i'm confused by your viewpoint.  if we have spent large on big name players for the past 3-4 years without success, and in fact have done more damage than success (seeing as our league position is worse than "tight times" with moyes/martinez), what makes you think that this is in fact the year that that strategy pays off? 

 

i'm not advocating a moyes era system, of getting frees/loans/castoffs for pennies on the dollar.  i'm advocating the liverpool system, they bought smartly and spent decent money on players for a good few years.  it wasn't until they had arrived at CL football that they then went wild on Van Dijk/Allisson/keita/fabinho etc spending 150m+ a window.  previous to that, they in fact sold their best players as part of the bigger plan!!! coutinho and sterling being the 2 i'm talking about.  they spent money no doubt, 37m on Mane, 36m Salah, but they have also got some players on the cheap as well (Robertson, Matip, Adrian, Minamino, etc).  Notice all the players they brought in were young, Mane, Salah, Firmino, Ox, Fabinho, Keita, robertson, allisson (i'm saying 26/27 and younger is "young").  none of their big players or even rotation players were 29/30+ when they bought them.  wierd i thought you needed the old vets and steady heads?  if you look at Pep he does the same thing (in regards to age), i haven't seen City buy a player that's old, they are all young.

Just in respect of your last comment about City signings, don't forget that Man City had a very old team to start with. Toure, Zabeleta, Silva, Sagna, Clichy, Caballero, Nolito, Kolarov, Navas, Bravo, Fernandinho were all above 30 and Aguero, Otamendi and Fernando were only at most a couple of years behind. City needed to bring in a lot of young players to compliment these older heads.

I don't think Klopp had the same problem but it would be hard to play Klopp's way as your at the end of your career.

5 hours ago, StevO said:

We haven’t spent on big name players though. We’ve spent big money on average players, who have been targeted as good enough to push us on. They just haven’t been good enough. 
Gylfi if probably the only one you could say was a big name, but even that should just be considered big price, as he was still only coming in from a small club and hadn’t achieved much. 

Throw into that mix that we know we are a club with money to spend, in the current climate there won’t be too many, so we could have a little advantage there. We also have Brands, he’s been involved in championship winning teams before. And the biggest, most different reason to anything we’ve had at the club since Howard in the 80’s, we’ve got Carlo fucking Ancelotti. He’s not here to grab a top half finish. 

I’ll say one thing though. If, with a billionaire owner, a successful DoF and Carlo, we still can’t be successful; then it’s time to give up. We’ve got everything in place now. Everything to give us what we’ve been craving for so long. For decades. It’s all here, we just need them to get it right. 

I agree with the first point entirely. We targeted so many of the wrong type of players but having so many managers in that short spell hasn't helped either because they all want different things as well. We desperately need a period of consolidation so that we can try and build something and allow both the manager and Brands to get things right.

I would though add on the point in bold that I don't believe for one second that any of our previous managers were here to make up the numbers.

[StevO]

4 hours ago, Bailey said:

Just in respect of your last comment about City signings, don't forget that Man City had a very old team to start with. Toure, Zabeleta, Silva, Sagna, Clichy, Caballero, Nolito, Kolarov, Navas, Bravo, Fernandinho were all above 30 and Aguero, Otamendi and Fernando were only at most a couple of years behind. City needed to bring in a lot of young players to compliment these older heads.

I don't think Klopp had the same problem but it would be hard to play Klopp's way as your at the end of your career.

I agree with the first point entirely. We targeted so many of the wrong type of players but having so many managers in that short spell hasn't helped either because they all want different things as well. We desperately need a period of consolidation so that we can try and build something and allow both the manager and Brands to get things right.

I would though add on the point in bold that I don't believe for one second that any of our previous managers were here to make up the numbers.

I agree too. But if Silva says he wants champions league you think ok he’s ambitious. If Carlo says it, you think he’s serious!