Hafnia Posted August 22, 2017 Report Share Posted August 22, 2017 (edited) Lesser teams than us will get something against them. The reason? Their defence is poor. We spent so much focus on preventing their strengths opposed to exposing their weakness. Too much tinkering by koeman and again we started a game with players not looking like they know their job. He's spending a fortune yet seems to have no real idea on how best to use his players. Yes city are strong but ffs are we gonna play the top 4 like this home and away? It didn't take a mistake for them to score... it took a matter of time. They should have been out of sight after 30 minutes - 9 times out of 10 they will have been. Edited August 22, 2017 by Hafnia Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paddock Posted August 22, 2017 Author Report Share Posted August 22, 2017 Lesser teams than us will get something against them. The reason? Their defence is poor. We spent so much focus on preventing their strengths opposed to exposing their weakness. Too much tinkering by koeman and again we started a game with players not looking like they know their job. He's spending a fortune yet seems to have no real idea on how best to use his players. Yes city are strong but ffs are we gonna play the top 4 like this home and away? It didn't take a mistake for them to score... it took a matter of time. They should have been out of sight after 30 minutes - 9 times out of 10 they will have been. No it never, it was a mistake it was a stupid header but like I say he's young and will learn. You could see by his face he knew he'd fucked up. Positives are we defended fantastically against one of the best attacking teams jn the world- we made a mistake and they punished us- it's what teams like that do. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hafnia Posted August 22, 2017 Report Share Posted August 22, 2017 No it never, it was a mistake it was a stupid header but like I say he's young and will learn. You could see by his face he knew he'd fucked up. Positives are we defended fantastically against one of the best attacking teams jn the world- we made a mistake and they punished us- it's what teams like that do. There were positives undoubtedly. But considering everything I don't believe we adopted the right approach. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aaron Posted August 22, 2017 Report Share Posted August 22, 2017 There were positives undoubtedly. But considering everything I don't believe we adopted the right approach. What is the alternative? Go attacking and leave us vulnerable at the back against some of the best attacking talent on the planet? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paddock Posted August 22, 2017 Author Report Share Posted August 22, 2017 What is the alternative? Go attacking and leave us vulnerable at the back against some of the best attacking talent on the planet? This is going to be an issue all season- some fans (not aimed at you Haf) are going to think because we've brought in new players and spent money we should be playing City at their own game and beating them by attacking. They've spent close to 250 mlllion this window on top of an already vastly superior squad. We need to keep things in perspective- new players or not we are nowhere near their standard. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hafnia Posted August 22, 2017 Report Share Posted August 22, 2017 What is the alternative? Go attacking and leave us vulnerable at the back against some of the best attacking talent on the planet? The alternative to not being ultra defensive is not "attacking leaving us vulnerable at the back" - "BALANCED" - is the word we had 5 defenders - 2 defensive midfielders and Tom Davies acting as a hybrid - allowing their defence to sit on the half way line as we had zero pace to hit them on the counter, mirallas or lookman would have made them sit deeper... As it was our super tactical sit back and invite them approach with 8 men in our area resulted in them having ridiculous chances galore which on another day will have seen us get absolutely battered before the half time whistle. People are seemingly forgetting that we didn't shut them out with these tactics - it was just good fortune on our behalf that they didn't have the game out of sight early on. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StevO Posted August 22, 2017 Report Share Posted August 22, 2017 7 minutes from a win at City? We didn't lose. I'm disappointed not to win but way more positives than negatives. We are solid at the back, no doubts about that. Rooney and DCL were great, Koeman had its tactics spot on, aim to pick on their weak defenders. If we never lost Morgan to the red card I think we see that game out. No issue with Koeman at all with this game. markjazzbassist 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aaron Posted August 22, 2017 Report Share Posted August 22, 2017 The alternative to not being ultra defensive is not "attacking leaving us vulnerable at the back" - "BALANCED" - is the word we had 5 defenders - 2 defensive midfielders and Tom Davies acting as a hybrid - allowing their defence to sit on the half way line as we had zero pace to hit them on the counter, mirallas or lookman would have made them sit deeper... As it was our super tactical sit back and invite them approach with 8 men in our area resulted in them having ridiculous chances galore which on another day will have seen us get absolutely battered before the half time whistle. People are seemingly forgetting that we didn't shut them out with these tactics - it was just good fortune on our behalf that they didn't have the game out of sight early on. Mirallas and Lookman don't give us the defensive cover though, that's the problem. I agree with you on the zero pace to an extent, DCL has pace, our tactic to play it long to him caused their defence all sorts of problems, they didn't know how to deal with him, other than that yeah zero pace. Out of curiosity, who would you of sacrificed to play either Mirallas or Lookman? For me, we did keep them shut out with these tactics, Aguero, one of the worlds best strikers was kept quiet all night, as was KDB, they only had 6 shots on target all game. The sit back and counter attack worked in our favour, frustrate the opposition, which showed with Walker walking. going toe to toe with City would have resulted with a bigger score line for City, that I'm sure of. I suppose we will have to agree to disagree on this, I am very much in the Koeman got his tactics correct camp for this game. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bailey Posted August 22, 2017 Report Share Posted August 22, 2017 (edited) I just didn't think the tactic was as effective as is being made out. They had some great opportunities before and after we scored and if those goals go in and we get beat people will hold a different view. I think we had 1 shot on target, if they had that efficiency we would have conceded 4 or 5. I expect that playing away at the big sides Koeman will set us up defensively and to play on the counter. No problem with that at all, but we were poor when it came to causing a threat, like we were a lot of last season away from home against half decent sides. If you play defensively you need to be a threat and we weren't. Rooney and Davies were caught between defence and attack (same as Rooney was last season), and it was only because DCL did unbelievably well up top that we had any joy whatsoever (yet again why did he start at RB last week). Our back 5 looked shaky in parts, remember Jags falling on his arse but somehow able to get the block in, Keane caught out when they hit the post, Williams and Keane getting well out of position when trying to intercept. Then when they went to 10 men they still had the best chances. We got lucky and on another occasion we won't get as lucky and ship a few. Unless we are having a Leicester season and we are going to win the league! Edited August 22, 2017 by Bailey Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lowensda Posted August 22, 2017 Report Share Posted August 22, 2017 Draw away. Win at home. Every game. That's my view. I have doubts about Koeman but yesterday he got tactics spot on. Of it wasn't for the ref, the outcome could have been different but that's all ifs and buts. A point at City is VERY good. How anyone can see the negatives in it, I have no idea! markjazzbassist 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SpartyBlue Posted August 22, 2017 Report Share Posted August 22, 2017 Lesser teams than us will get something against them. The reason? Their defence is poor. We spent so much focus on preventing their strengths opposed to exposing their weakness. Too much tinkering by koeman and again we started a game with players not looking like they know their job. He's spending a fortune yet seems to have no real idea on how best to use his players. Yes city are strong but ffs are we gonna play the top 4 like this home and away? It didn't take a mistake for them to score... it took a matter of time. They should have been out of sight after 30 minutes - 9 times out of 10 they will have been. I think your'e overstating what happened in the first 30 minutes. They didn't have any clear cut chances really and we looked threatening on the break. In the few minutes leading up to our goal they were certainly dangerous and should have scored but it's City at home against an Everton side that is still learning itself and who didn't have it's best lineup. High expectations are fine but yours are a little unreasonable at this early stage. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shukes Posted August 22, 2017 Report Share Posted August 22, 2017 Better finishing from them and the opinion on tactics would be different. I your happy with how we played last night then you are happy with mediocre. It was rubbish to watch as an Everton fan, and was anyone surprised when they scored? I wasn't, it was on the cards from the off. They hit the post from six yards out. Aguero miss hitting that volley inside our area? You play negative against sides like that and generally you will get turned over. Last night was more blind luck than anything. One thing it showed me was that we are a long way from the top four still. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johnh Posted August 22, 2017 Report Share Posted August 22, 2017 Draw away. Win at home. Every game. That's my view. I have doubts about Koeman but yesterday he got tactics spot on. Of it wasn't for the ref, the outcome could have been different but that's all ifs and buts. A point at City is VERY good. How anyone can see the negatives in it, I have no idea! I'm afraid that view completely ignores the circumstances. We would all have settled for a point before the game, but we were only playing against 10 men for a good part of the game. There was a major opportunity to get all three points and we had one attempt on their goal in the second-half. At half-time, Koeman appears to have told them 'park the bus'. Very disappointing and negative given the circumstances. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeO Posted August 22, 2017 Report Share Posted August 22, 2017 7 minutes from a win at City? We didn't lose. I'm disappointed not to win but way more positives than negatives. We are solid at the back, no doubts about that. Rooney and DCL were great, Koeman had its tactics spot on, aim to pick on their weak defenders. If we never lost Morgan to the red card I think we see that game out. No issue with Koeman at all with this game. Morgan was sent off after they equalised . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SpartyBlue Posted August 22, 2017 Report Share Posted August 22, 2017 (edited) I'm afraid that view completely ignores the circumstances. We would all have settled for a point before the game, but we were only playing against 10 men for a good part of the game. There was a major opportunity to get all three points and we had one attempt on their goal in the second-half. At half-time, Koeman appears to have told them 'park the bus'. Very disappointing and negative given the circumstances. You're making the assumption that however the players performed tactically it was because RK had instructed them to do so. Given that Koeman expressed frustration that we didn't do more high tempo passing in the second half, and that he changed formation while subbing in two attack minded midfielders prior to their equalizing goal, I find it unlikely he wanted us to play in the way you describe. Edited August 22, 2017 by SpartyBlue Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hafnia Posted August 22, 2017 Report Share Posted August 22, 2017 You're making the assumption that however the players performed tactically it was because RK had instructed them to do so. Given that Koeman expressed frustration that we didn't do more high tempo passing in the second half, and that he changed formation while subbing in two attack minded midfielders prior to their equalizing goal, I find it unlikely he wanted us to play in the way you describe. How many wants does he want it? He sets us out with 9 players of a defensive outlook (excluding Rooney and dcl) and he thinks we should be ok to just turn into an attacking unit on the basis of 2 subs? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
duncanmckenzieismagic Posted August 22, 2017 Report Share Posted August 22, 2017 I've deliberately kept out of all these threads because I knew some would be lining up to volley Koeman over this. Endbof the day they are a much much MUCH better side than us- Koeman got his tactics right- we nicked a goal and defended excellently. If you go toe to toe with City with the players they have (even with 10 men) you're getting twatted. It was a stupid header from Holgate, to just nod it up in the air into your own box like that is schoolboy stuff and if he doesn't do that we win 1-0 and things are totally different. Such a shame because he was excellent all game as well, he should have flicked it out for a corner but he's young and will learn from it all. 4 points from the first 2 games is more than most where expecting- point against Chelsea and if we beat Spurs we'll be flying from a set of extremely difficult matches. I totally agree , thought he got his tactics and subs spot on again last night Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Newty82 Posted August 22, 2017 Report Share Posted August 22, 2017 He set out for damage limitation. He got it. Set out for a draw at best. Got it. I don't like it so much, I'd prefer us to go a bit more attacking. At least to give us a chance (but then the set up did give us a chance!). But then I expected us to most likely get beat. It's different as a fan. As the team manager, his job is to get as many points as possible, however possible. Unfortunately, the way we set up meant that we couldn't take advantage of being a man up. The team wasn't set up for it. They were like flys around shit...everywhere. I don't think there is much room to be overly critical of anyone really. Very tough game. MikeO 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
London Blue Posted August 22, 2017 Report Share Posted August 22, 2017 How many wants does he want it? He sets us out with 9 players of a defensive outlook (excluding Rooney and dcl) and he thinks we should be ok to just turn into an attacking unit on the basis of 2 subs? Most teams have at least 6 defensive players, goalkeeper, 4 defenders, and a defensive midfield player, we had 8, 5 at the back, Pickford and 2 defensive midfielders. When he brought Klaassen and Siggy on he took us back to a more balanced side 4 defenders, 2 defensive midfielders, and 4 attacking players. Those two subs (in theory) gave us more attacking options and outlets in midfield and the final third. City have one of the best midfields in europe, so it was never going to be that easy, even when they were a man down. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bailey Posted August 23, 2017 Report Share Posted August 23, 2017 Better finishing from them and the opinion on tactics would be different. I your happy with how we played last night then you are happy with mediocre. It was rubbish to watch as an Everton fan, and was anyone surprised when they scored? I wasn't, it was on the cards from the off. They hit the post from six yards out. Aguero miss hitting that volley inside our area? You play negative against sides like that and generally you will get turned over. Last night was more blind luck than anything. One thing it showed me was that we are a long way from the top four still. Completely right, especially the bit in bold. City have one of the best midfields in europe, so it was never going to be that easy, even when they were a man down. I only thought that De Bruyne and Silva were any good on Monday. Fernandinho solid but unspectacular (as he is), Sane & Sterling werent at their best. They are a decent attacking team but thats a terrible defensive midfield. The first two give up when they have to sprint more than 10 yards and then you are up against a slow and unsettled back 3, which was the one thing Koeman did do well in using DCL to exploit that. I was actually really disappointed with City, I was expecting a lot more (in both games). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paddock Posted August 23, 2017 Author Report Share Posted August 23, 2017 We are still going to be apart from the top 4. Just because we've spent money doesn't mean we'll catch them. Most of the top 4 will outspend us or spend similar and already have much better squads. Wevaren't going to catch them in one go, it's a case of building, gelling and bit by bit getting closer. It'll Be 3 years before we can get in amongst them but that's only if the 3 years are spent buying correctly and being together as a tram. We now have no pre maddonnas like Lukaku who think they are too good for us in the squad- everyone except Baarkley who will soon be gone ants to be here, they've signed knowing we're a project and they know it'll take time but they've bought into it and believe in it. We're doing alright. Romey 1878, MikeO, markjazzbassist and 1 other 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bailey Posted August 23, 2017 Report Share Posted August 23, 2017 We are still going to be apart from the top 4. Just because we've spent money doesn't mean we'll catch them. Most of the top 4 will outspend us or spend similar and already have much better squads. Wevaren't going to catch them in one go, it's a case of building, gelling and bit by bit getting closer. It'll Be 3 years before we can get in amongst them but that's only if the 3 years are spent buying correctly and being together as a tram. We now have no pre maddonnas like Lukaku who think they are too good for us in the squad- everyone except Baarkley who will soon be gone ants to be here, they've signed knowing we're a project and they know it'll take time but they've bought into it and believe in it. We're doing alright. I think it is more to do with tactics than it is players tbh. Obviously having very good players helps but as you saw with Leicester a couple of years ago and even against Arsenal the other week, its not the be all and end all. You can play defensive but create good chances and enough of them. Its not even just the City game, each week we have barely knocked the door down and I don't expect that to change on Thursday. Defensively we are certainly a lot more like a top 4 side, but offensively we are miles off. Its still early in the season so hopefully that will change as the season develops. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paddock Posted August 23, 2017 Author Report Share Posted August 23, 2017 I think it is more to do with tactics than it is players tbh. Obviously having very good players helps but as you saw with Leicester a couple of years ago and even against Arsenal the other week, its not the be all and end all. You can play defensive but create good chances and enough of them. Its not even just the City game, each week we have barely knocked the door down and I don't expect that to change on Thursday. Defensively we are certainly a lot more like a top 4 side, but offensively we are miles off. Its still early in the season so hopefully that will change as the season develops. The Leicester story is heavily based on team spirit which I said we needed to catch up. I wouldn't say Ranieri was a master tactician nor did he out fox every manager that season. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
duncanmckenzieismagic Posted August 23, 2017 Report Share Posted August 23, 2017 I am sure Koeman didn't intend for it to be such a rearguard action, sometimes you just have to accept the quality of the opposition To say that if you are happy with the performance means you are happy with mediocrity is absolute bollocks. The squad has had a major overhaul yet it's still a work in progress , we are still missing the focal point up front . Added to that is the time it's going to take some of those players to get used to the league/ get fit/ gel as a team. Taking all that into account, I'm happy with the wayvwe played , happy we are progressing on the pitch , happy we are moving forward off the pitch , but am I fuck happy with mediocrity MikeO, markjazzbassist and Romey 1878 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shukes Posted August 23, 2017 Report Share Posted August 23, 2017 I am sure Koeman didn't intend for it to be such a rearguard action, sometimes you just have to accept the quality of the opposition To say that if you are happy with the performance means you are happy with mediocrity is absolute bollocks. The squad has had a major overhaul yet it's still a work in progress , we are still missing the focal point up front . Added to that is the time it's going to take some of those players to get used to the league/ get fit/ gel as a team. Taking all that into account, I'm happy with the wayvwe played , happy we are progressing on the pitch , happy we are moving forward off the pitch , but am I fuck happy with mediocrity That's fine that your happy with it. Myself, I think it's absolute bollocks that any fan can be happy with how we played! The result yes, but the performance was shit and boring. I'm just surprised that you enjoy watching that type of performance. Each to their own I suppose. I am happy that we are moving forward. Happy and understand that it's a work in progress. But as a fan, I cannot be happy with performances like that. Imagine Koeman telling his players how pleased he was with how they played? Haha sounds pathetic doesn't it. Ok boys we got Chelsea next, sit back and hope they play shit. If they do and we get a bit of luck, we might come away with a point..... get in there lads! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
markjazzbassist Posted August 23, 2017 Report Share Posted August 23, 2017 That's fine that your happy with it. Myself, I think it's absolute bollocks that any fan can be happy with how we played! The result yes, but the performance was shit and boring. I'm just surprised that you enjoy watching that type of performance. Each to their own I suppose. I am happy that we are moving forward. Happy and understand that it's a work in progress. But as a fan, I cannot be happy with performances like that. Imagine Koeman telling his players how pleased he was with how they played? Haha sounds pathetic doesn't it. Ok boys we got Chelsea next, sit back and hope they play shit. If they do and we get a bit of luck, we might come away with a point..... get in there lads! so martinez re-hire for you then? attack all out and no plan B. no thanks mate, one dimensional. this was a Plan B, it will not be every week. I'm glad for once we have something else we can do, Moyes was only defensive, martinez only attack, nice to have a manager that can do both (and players as well). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shukes Posted August 23, 2017 Report Share Posted August 23, 2017 so martinez re-hire for you then? attack all out and no plan B. no thanks mate, one dimensional. this was a Plan B, it will not be every week. I'm glad for once we have something else we can do, Moyes was only defensive, martinez only attack, nice to have a manager that can do both (and players as well). Not at all. I said the opposite in the above post. Still not happy with negative boring football. If I was, I would just look at results. But I'm a fan of football, so I look at it differently. Again... I'm happy with the point away at city. I'm happy with our progression. I'm also happy with our direction. But that was boring. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
duncanmckenzieismagic Posted August 23, 2017 Report Share Posted August 23, 2017 That's fine that your happy with it. Myself, I think it's absolute bollocks that any fan can be happy with how we played! The result yes, but the performance was shit and boring. I'm just surprised that you enjoy watching that type of performance. Each to their own I suppose. I am happy that we are moving forward. Happy and understand that it's a work in progress. But as a fan, I cannot be happy with performances like that. Imagine Koeman telling his players how pleased he was with how they played? Haha sounds pathetic doesn't it. Ok boys we got Chelsea next, sit back and hope they play shit. If they do and we get a bit of luck, we might come away with a point..... get in there lads! I would have been much happier with a 10 - 0 away win but it was never going to happen was it? Koeman pretty much used the same tactics he did in the 4-0 win against City at Goodison however City were too strong for us and pushed us back, nobody complained then! We make a few signings and suddenly some fans think we are Barcelona . It's going to take time before we can go toe to against sides like City away Would you have preferred a Martinez Analfield Derby type of performance? There were lots of positives to be taken from the game and we got a good result , so yes I'm happy Each to their own indeed but don't then go trying to tell people what they are happy with MikeO and markjazzbassist 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shukes Posted August 23, 2017 Report Share Posted August 23, 2017 (edited) Eh? Don't try telling people there opinions are bollocks either mate. I watched the match. City were shit. If you think they were otherworldly then I don't know what to say. Although they were shit, we were lucky. If you think out luck was down to excellent tactics then again... I'm lost haha. Another day we could have easily lost that against ten men, easily with that performance. And I'm my opinion, whether you like it or not is irrelevant, anyone that is happy with that are happy with the good old plucky Everton days! And I'm not telling everyone what they are happy with. Any half witted person could understand what I meant. Your the only one I was telling! Edited August 23, 2017 by Shukes Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeO Posted August 23, 2017 Report Share Posted August 23, 2017 I love respectful, well argued, informed debate. I'd better go down the pub. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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