Brexit...

[pete0]

1 hour ago, MikeO said:

Just in the wrong thread.

Sorry, feel free to move. I was deciding between coronavirus or government thread. No idea how I ended up posting in the wrong one completely. 

[johnh]

21 hours ago, holystove said:

70% of Nissan cars made in Sunderland are exported to the EU.  The UK market is way too small to sustain the plant.

My guess, Nissan is crossing their fingers for no tarriffs on cars between EU and UK on cars; doesnt look likely though.

I don't think companies like Nissan 'cross their fingers' on a deal of this scale.  I suspect that they have had numerous discussions with the EU, behind closed doors - which appears to be the way things get done in the EU.

[Palfy]

47 minutes ago, johnh said:

I don't think companies like Nissan 'cross their fingers' on a deal of this scale.

Totally agree with that statement John, they are a global business after all not a market stall that might fly by the seat of their pants. 
But I do feel that there is going to be some sour grapes towards them because they’ve chosen the UK over Spain. 

[holystove]

4 hours ago, johnh said:

I don't think companies like Nissan 'cross their fingers' on a deal of this scale.  I suspect that they have had numerous discussions with the EU, behind closed doors - which appears to be the way things get done in the EU.

I'm sorry John but that's not how any of this works.  If there is no deal between the EU and the UK that put tarriffs at 0% on cars , there won't be a 0% tarriff on cars.  

They only way to "avoid" these tarriffs is if the UK government promises to pay the 10% tarriff instead of Nissan.  Reportedly they got this promise from Theresa May in 2016 and I assume Nissan is still counting on that. (https://www.irishtimes.com/business/manufacturing/uk-letter-vowed-to-protect-nissan-from-brexit-fallout-1.3781568)

Coincidentally such 'State Aid' would be illegal as an EU member state.  So of course EU to UK, Nissan would still have to pay those tarriffs.  I don't know if this influenced the decision.

 

[Palfy]

26 minutes ago, holystove said:

I'm sorry John but that's not how any of this works.  If there is no deal between the EU and the UK that put tarriffs at 0% on cars , there won't be a 0% tarriff on cars.  

They only way to "avoid" these tarriffs is if the UK government promises to pay the 10% tarriff instead of Nissan.  Reportedly they got this promise from Theresa May in 2016 and I assume Nissan is still counting on that. (https://www.irishtimes.com/business/manufacturing/uk-letter-vowed-to-protect-nissan-from-brexit-fallout-1.3781568)

Coincidentally such 'State Aid' would be illegal as an EU member state.  So of course EU to UK, Nissan would still have to pay those tarriffs.  I don't know if this influenced the decision.

 

The truth is Holystove nobody really knows how any of this is going to pan out, it seems that the goal posts are constantly moving between the EU and Britain. 
I am beginning to feel that the EU are more afraid of a no deal than our government, my biggest fear I will be honest was Britain crashing out with a no deal.

 I am still very much a pro EU supporter, but it saddens me to say that Britain appear to be gaining the upper hand, which in reality I don’t feel will make us a stronger economy but maybe not quite as weak as one thought, but for the EU a no deal and Britain riding the waves could lead to the near break up of the EU, if not definitely more member states leaving. 
And that would be a very sad time for Europe and the world. 

[johnh]

16 hours ago, holystove said:

I'm sorry John but that's not how any of this works.  If there is no deal between the EU and the UK that put tarriffs at 0% on cars , there won't be a 0% tarriff on cars.  

They only way to "avoid" these tarriffs is if the UK government promises to pay the 10% tarriff instead of Nissan.  Reportedly they got this promise from Theresa May in 2016 and I assume Nissan is still counting on that. (https://www.irishtimes.com/business/manufacturing/uk-letter-vowed-to-protect-nissan-from-brexit-fallout-1.3781568)

Coincidentally such 'State Aid' would be illegal as an EU member state.  So of course EU to UK, Nissan would still have to pay those tarriffs.  I don't know if this influenced the decision.

 

But the French government can inject multi-millions into Renault?   Still, France and Germany are law's unto themselves in the EU and Germany's stance in this respect could signal the end of the euro and the end of the EU as we know it.

[Matt]

1 hour ago, johnh said:

But the French government can inject multi-millions into Renault?   Still, France and Germany are law's unto themselves in the EU and Germany's stance in this respect could signal the end of the euro and the end of the EU as we know it.

Countries having their own rules? The rich dictating the poor? Sounds all too familiar 

[johnh]

On 31/05/2020 at 14:47, Matt said:

Countries having their own rules? The rich dictating the poor? Sounds all too familiar 

Eh?

[Palfy]

On 31/05/2020 at 13:34, johnh said:

But the French government can inject multi-millions into Renault?   Still, France and Germany are law's unto themselves in the EU and Germany's stance in this respect could signal the end of the euro and the end of the EU as we know it.

The French government owns 15% of Renault and has promised them a multi billion euro bailout or loan. 
Which is why I can’t see Renault in conjunction with Nissan being allowed to build 2 models in the UK, I can see the French government for the good of the EU trying to get Renault to object to Nissans decision to shut Barcelona over Sunderland, by using their friendship and alliance as a leaver, after all in the bigger picture if we succeed after Brexit then the EU will have failed.

[Matt]

52 minutes ago, johnh said:

Eh?

Great Britain and the Conservatives mate. 

[MikeO]

28 minutes ago, Palfy said:

The French government owns 15% of Renault and has promised them a multi billion euro bailout or loan. 
Which is why I can’t see Renault in conjunction with Nissan being allowed to build 2 models in the UK, I can see the French government for the good of the EU trying to get Renault to object to Nissans decision to shut Barcelona over Sunderland, by using their friendship and alliance as a leaver, after all in the bigger picture if we succeed after Brexit then the EU will have failed.

I think you mean "lever" Palfy mate, there's quite a difference.

[Palfy]

1 hour ago, MikeO said:

I think you mean "lever" Palfy mate, there's quite a difference.

you’re right,  I don’t think there’s much hope for me Mike 61 in 3 months, I going down hill rapidly, it will soon be a full time occupation for you covering my gaffes. 
I hope you’re hourly rate is reasonable

[holystove]

On 31/05/2020 at 14:34, johnh said:

But the French government can inject multi-millions into Renault?   Still, France and Germany are law's unto themselves in the EU and Germany's stance in this respect could signal the end of the euro and the end of the EU as we know it.

You can, under certain circumstances, ask for an exemption of state aid.  The EU commission will assess this and make a binding ruling.  In corona-times, each member state that has asked to save a certain part of their economy has gotten the exemption beause we are in unprecedented times.   Asking for a exemption on state-aid because you chose to leave the Single Market would not have gotten the green light from the Commission .

[Matt]

https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-52934128

[Matt]

https://www.bbc.com/news/business-52960677

[MikeO]

I see Farage has lost his LBC show...

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/entertainment-arts-53006006

 

[holystove]

In light of the UK - US trade negotations there are a lot of really interesting post-brexit decisions to be made by the UK.   See for example this statement by the US "national pork producers council".

"As the United Kingdom moves to the final stages of the process of withdrawing from the European Union, it has many stark choices in front of it. Among the most important is whether it will maintain the EU’s non-science-based and protectionist SPS barriers to agricultural trade, or whether it will instead jettison the EU’s “precautionary” approach to regulatory decision making and open itself to modern agricultural production methods of the kind practiced by the United States." (http://nppc.org/wp-content/uploads/2019/01/P-NPPC-UK-FTA-1.15.19-Comments-FINAL.pdf)

To be clear, they want the UK to allow sow stalls (where the mothers can't move) and using additives and antibiotics banned in the EU.   

If the UK government chooses to deregulate sectors such as these, this will ofcourse impact market access to the EU.  Also, does the UK want to export and underwrite animal cruelty? 

So, what to do?  Does 'global Britain' mean the UK is open for everything?

(here I was, worried, with brexit done on the 31st of January, that the interesting bit had ended).

[Tonsta]

Whilst i agree with the above, i am more confused than ever, as we allow cruelty in this country condemned by all our vets, but allow it under the guise of religion.

[markjazzbassist]

1 hour ago, holystove said:

In light of the UK - US trade negotations there are a lot of really interesting post-brexit decisions to be made by the UK.   See for example this statement by the US "national pork producers council".

"As the United Kingdom moves to the final stages of the process of withdrawing from the European Union, it has many stark choices in front of it. Among the most important is whether it will maintain the EU’s non-science-based and protectionist SPS barriers to agricultural trade, or whether it will instead jettison the EU’s “precautionary” approach to regulatory decision making and open itself to modern agricultural production methods of the kind practiced by the United States." (http://nppc.org/wp-content/uploads/2019/01/P-NPPC-UK-FTA-1.15.19-Comments-FINAL.pdf)

To be clear, they want the UK to allow sow stalls (where the mothers can't move) and using additives and antibiotics banned in the EU.   

If the UK government chooses to deregulate sectors such as these, this will ofcourse impact market access to the EU.  Also, does the UK want to export and underwrite animal cruelty? 

So, what to do?  Does 'global Britain' mean the UK is open for everything?

(here I was, worried, with brexit done on the 31st of January, that the interesting bit had ended).

ouch, i've always held europe (UK too) in high regards due to it's high standards for food quality.  lowering yourself to the US standards is akin to eating dog food.

[Matt]

The government has no problem with people suffering in place of wealth, why the fuck would they care about animals!

[Palfy]

47 minutes ago, markjazzbassist said:

ouch, i've always held europe (UK too) in high regards due to it's high standards for food quality.  lowering yourself to the US standards is akin to eating dog food.

We no mate we’ve had KFC McDonald’s and Dominos here for years, you can’t beat healthy British food Black pudding suet puds dumplings fry ups Turkey twislers

[markjazzbassist]

1 hour ago, Palfy said:

We no mate we’ve had KFC McDonald’s and Dominos here for years, you can’t beat healthy British food Black pudding suet puds dumplings fry ups Turkey twislers

i don't mean the cuisine, i mean the raw food.  in most of europe local and organic are standard due to EU food standards.  In the US these are seen are Premium foods you have to pay a high price for at specialty markets ala Whole Foods or Trader Joe's.  Mainstream stores carry some local and/or organic food, but usually not much.  it's all we buy, so it's tough because our grocery bills are so high.  i'd rather pay more for groceries now than pay for the health bills later that will come with eating anti-biotic pumped, steroid animal products or produce washed or fertilized with cancerous roundup and other products.  we've been getting most of our food direct from farmers in a CSA (community supported agriculture) for years now, but still need to hit the grocery for items every week that they don't have.

[Palfy]

23 minutes ago, markjazzbassist said:

i don't mean the cuisine, i mean the raw food.  in most of europe local and organic are standard due to EU food standards.  In the US these are seen are Premium foods you have to pay a high price for at specialty markets ala Whole Foods or Trader Joe's.  Mainstream stores carry some local and/or organic food, but usually not much.  it's all we buy, so it's tough because our grocery bills are so high.  i'd rather pay more for groceries now than pay for the health bills later that will come with eating anti-biotic pumped, steroid animal products or produce washed or fertilized with cancerous roundup and other products.  we've been getting most of our food direct from farmers in a CSA (community supported agriculture) for years now, but still need to hit the grocery for items every week that they don't have.

I know mate just a bit of banter

[holystove]

18 hours ago, markjazzbassist said:

i don't mean the cuisine, i mean the raw food.  in most of europe local and organic are standard due to EU food standards.  In the US these are seen are Premium foods you have to pay a high price for at specialty markets ala Whole Foods or Trader Joe's.  Mainstream stores carry some local and/or organic food, but usually not much.  it's all we buy, so it's tough because our grocery bills are so high.  i'd rather pay more for groceries now than pay for the health bills later that will come with eating anti-biotic pumped, steroid animal products or produce washed or fertilized with cancerous roundup and other products.  we've been getting most of our food direct from farmers in a CSA (community supported agriculture) for years now, but still need to hit the grocery for items every week that they don't have.

Lower food standards do mean lower prices, though.  Food is much cheaper in the US compared to here.  Lower food prices are one of the benefits of brexit that can probably come true.  I understand the UK government want to allow the "inferior" food to be sold in the UK and have the consumer decide what they want.  Cheap food (US), EU-certified food, or Premium foods as you describe.  

[markjazzbassist]

2 hours ago, holystove said:

Lower food standards do mean lower prices, though.  Food is much cheaper in the US compared to here.  Lower food prices are one of the benefits of brexit that can probably come true.  I understand the UK government want to allow the "inferior" food to be sold in the UK and have the consumer decide what they want.  Cheap food (US), EU-certified food, or Premium foods as you describe.  

watch as disease rates soar just like they do the in the US.

[Palfy]

4 hours ago, holystove said:

Lower food standards do mean lower prices, though.  Food is much cheaper in the US compared to here.  Lower food prices are one of the benefits of brexit that can probably come true.  I understand the UK government want to allow the "inferior" food to be sold in the UK and have the consumer decide what they want.  Cheap food (US), EU-certified food, or Premium foods as you describe.  

That’s very true, I remember thinking on my first trip to the states that there was very little value to food, with all you can eat buffet breakfasts for a few bucks, and locals piling it on and leaving most of it, or coming back with 2 plates piled up and just picking at it. 
That can only be profitable if you’re costs are very low. 

[holystove]

4 hours ago, markjazzbassist said:

watch as disease rates soar just like they do the in the US.

Yes very true, disproportionally affecting the poor.  

Also watch local farmers go bust because they can't compete with industrialized US farming.  And even if you, as a consumer, choose not to eat the US beef/pork/.., you won't know where your restaurateur gets his food (..you can't take a pretty good guess though).

[Matt]

35 minutes ago, holystove said:

Yes very true, disproportionally affecting the poor.  

Also watch local farmers go bust because they can't compete with industrialized US farming.  And even if you, as a consumer, choose not to eat the US beef/pork/.., you won't know where your restaurateur gets his food (..you can't take a pretty good guess though).

The source of the meat has to be declared here in Switzerland, so you always know. Means the local farmers are protected but then they also drive prices up to ridiculous levels. I remember buying a 2kg leg of New Zealand lamb a few years ago for about £20, here it would cost close to £160-180.

ive also always enjoyed the food in the US. the in-laws usually go to their local butchers or farmers market, but even the stuff I’ve had from Walmart was good. Plus I love Wendy’s. I do go on a meat feast in the US because I can’t really here, to anywhere near the same extend at least, but all the above might be why I end up losing weight (usually 2-3kg in 14 days) whilst I’m there. 

[markjazzbassist]

1 hour ago, holystove said:

Yes very true, disproportionally affecting the poor.  

Also watch local farmers go bust because they can't compete with industrialized US farming.  And even if you, as a consumer, choose not to eat the US beef/pork/.., you won't know where your restaurateur gets his food (..you can't take a pretty good guess though).

yes good point.  the farm to table movement at restaurants is a big thing here.  it's really changed a lot of the restaurant landscape as diners prefer knowing where their food is coming from and would rather support restaurants that buy from local farmers.

 

1 hour ago, Matt said:

The source of the meat has to be declared here in Switzerland, so you always know. Means the local farmers are protected but then they also drive prices up to ridiculous levels. I remember buying a 2kg leg of New Zealand lamb a few years ago for about £20, here it would cost close to £160-180.

ive also always enjoyed the food in the US. the in-laws usually go to their local butchers or farmers market, but even the stuff I’ve had from Walmart was good. Plus I love Wendy’s. I do go on a meat feast in the US because I can’t really here, to anywhere near the same extend at least, but all the above might be why I end up losing weight (usually 2-3kg in 14 days) whilst I’m there. 

i love fast food too matt, it's an addiction i've yet to best (quit sugar and booze for months before).  i don't eat it often, maybe 1 time a month, but if we're out of food or on a drive, i'm not going to turn it down   wendy's is from Ohio, so we have them everywhere.  I am a big fan of Chipotle, they are healthier and don't use antibiotic meat, and source as much as they can locally and organic, but it's still fast food

[Matt]

Enjoy it Mark. Our local burger place closed due to the virus and it was sublime. It still pops up on google when I’m looking for a takeout and both the wife and I sigh with disappointment! Everything came from within a 20km radius, the cheese and bread from within 200 metres!