Brexit...

[Matt]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-63627801

Shocker. 

[MikeO]

 

[Palfy]

5 hours ago, MikeO said:

 

That's why Labour need to run with taking us back in the union, the percentage wanting to return will get bigger and bigger in the next two years, we just need a party to have to give us the vehicle to return. 

[MikeO]

5 minutes ago, Palfy said:

That's why Labour need to run with taking us back in the union, the percentage wanting to return will get bigger and bigger in the next two years, we just need a party to have to give us the vehicle to return. 

Is there any guarantee they'd take us back?

[Palfy]

2 minutes ago, MikeO said:

Is there any guarantee they'd take us back?

No guarantee, but if they run their campaign with their number one pledge to hold a referendum to return, and they won the election with that at the top of their manifesto, then it would destroy them as a party possibly for ever they reneged on such a commitment. 

[MikeO]

1 minute ago, Palfy said:

No guarantee, but if they run their campaign with their number one pledge to hold a referendum to return, and they won the election with that at the top of their manifesto, then it would destroy them as a party possibly for ever they reneged on such a commitment. 

I meant is there any guarantee that the EU would take us back as a country, or would they tell us to fuck off and cash in on all the "opportunites" we've created for ourselves?

[Palfy]

17 minutes ago, MikeO said:

I meant is there any guarantee that the EU would take us back as a country, or would they tell us to fuck off and cash in on all the "opportunites" we've created for ourselves?

I would like to think they would, we would meet every requirement necessary to become a member again. 

[Matt]

I never thought anything but want us to be part of the EU but it absolutely should not be a political tool.

[Palfy]

4 hours ago, Matt said:

I never thought anything but want us to be part of the EU but it absolutely should not be a political tool.

Unfortunately I can't see it being any other way, it was used as a political tool that led to us leaving, so unless one party promotes a referendum on a return or still remain out vote, how else can we return. There could be a new party formed who's main objective was a return to the EU, but like the Greens who stand for saving the planet and the future of generations, there rise as never materialised and yet they stand for the most important thing in politics saving the planet, which sadly tells me if we ever wish to return we need a mainstream party, and preferably Labour to promise to give us that referendum in their first term if they were to be voted into government. 

[MikeO]

9 hours ago, Palfy said:

Unfortunately I can't see it being any other way, it was used as a political tool that led to us leaving, so unless one party promotes a referendum on a return or still remain out vote, how else can we return. There could be a new party formed who's main objective was a return to the EU, but like the Greens who stand for saving the planet and the future of generations, there rise as never materialised and yet they stand for the most important thing in politics saving the planet, which sadly tells me if we ever wish to return we need a mainstream party, and preferably Labour to promise to give us that referendum in their first term if they were to be voted into government. 

https://therejoineuparty.com/

[Bailey]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-63941509

[Matt]

https://youtu.be/VNFIllQwpm8

 

[Palfy]

Fuck off major if we have any military disputes with China we will simply attack them with nuclear weapons, that seems to be the acceptable solution. 

[MikeO]

Astonishing, Sunak saying that only NI will be in the incredible (unbelievably special/unique)position of having free access to both UK and EU markets, good for them....but didn't England, Scotland and Wales have that as well quite recently? If it's so good why did he campaign to give it up? Irony bypass.

 

[Matt]

3 minutes ago, RPG said:

I think that Brexit is about much more than free trade. In fact, as many brexit advocates have stated many times, if the EU had remained the free trade association that we joined in 1973, we might have remained ‘in.’

But once it started trying to become the United States of Europe it stepped outside the mandate on which it was sold to the UK public and we didn’t, and don’t’ wish to become a vassal state of the United States of Europe.

Doesn't change the fact that Sunak is bigging up the amazing opportunity of being part of the EU market as a massive plus, which we all had prior to this half-baked scheme. 

[Matt]

1 minute ago, RPG said:

Precisely the point that at least 17.4 million people made. The free trade association was fine but as soon as you put us in a situation where we have to give up sovereignty to keep free trade then you can stick your free trade where the sun doesn’t shine.

 

Also, a european trade association made sense in 1973. Today’s world is very different and whilst desirable, is certainly not essential and is certainly not worth giving up our sovereignty for - that is the argument whch people who are anti brexit just do not want to have as they will never win it.

Which sovereignty did we give up again? Or gain? 

I'll wait for the complete lack of either to be pulled out of thin air. 

Still avoiding the irony I see

 

[Matt]

1 minute ago, RPG said:

We have had this discussion a million times before and I’m not going to waste my time going over it again. Suffice to say that at least 17.4 million people can see the point that you either can’t or won’t.

So no evidence still? Gotchya 

It is a waste of time debating fiction and lies, I'll agree with you there. This evening is going bad enough without this too

[Matt]

4 minutes ago, RPG said:

No, you have got nothing. The EU wants UK and other current member states to give up their sovereignty. Not my words but those of none other than Verhofstadt.

Triple gotcha. Game over. You lost.

https://www.google.com/search?q=verhofstadt+give+up+sovereignty+eu+speech&client=safari&channel=ipad_bm&ei=6bf_Y-zgC4We4-EPnsOI4AU&oq=verhofstadt+give+up+sovereignty+eu+speech&gs_lcp=ChNtb2JpbGUtZ3dzLXdpei1zZXJwEAMyBQgAEKIEOgoIABBHENYEELADOgcIABAeEKIEOgQIHhAKOgQIIRAKSgQIQRgAUJwcWIt2YIKBAWgBcAB4AIABygGIAdoLkgEGMTkuMC4xmAEAoAEByAEIwAEB&sclient=mobile-gws-wiz-serp#fpstate=ive&vld=cid:6e23b562,vid:wCVw0nWgHog

1 man is not the EU. So yeah, you've got nothing. Gnight

[MikeO]

5 minutes ago, RPG said:

No, you have got nothing. The EU wants UK and other current member states to give up their sovereignty. Not my words but those of none other than Verhofstadt.

Triple gotcha. Game over. You lost.

https://www.google.com/search?q=verhofstadt+give+up+sovereignty+eu+speech&client=safari&channel=ipad_bm&ei=6bf_Y-zgC4We4-EPnsOI4AU&oq=verhofstadt+give+up+sovereignty+eu+speech&gs_lcp=ChNtb2JpbGUtZ3dzLXdpei1zZXJwEAMyBQgAEKIEOgoIABBHENYEELADOgcIABAeEKIEOgQIHhAKOgQIIRAKSgQIQRgAUJwcWIt2YIKBAWgBcAB4AIABygGIAdoLkgEGMTkuMC4xmAEAoAEByAEIwAEB&sclient=mobile-gws-wiz-serp#fpstate=ive&vld=cid:6e23b562,vid:wCVw0nWgHog

And he's in charge of what exactly? One man's opinion doesn't define the EU.

[Matt]

6 minutes ago, RPG said:

Matt, you can't continue ignoring and trying to discredit opinions that do not fit your personal beliefs and agenda mate. The various issues that you refuse to acknowledge, including, inter alia, sovereignty, are real issues that were, are and remain important to the people who voted for brexit. If we could have a free trade agreement with EU without being part of a United States of Europe, then fine. But we can't so we have to choose. We made the choice in 2016 and are out. That is the simple fact that people can choose to accept or not. But not accepting it won't change anything and just risks making people bitter.

I've got exactly what I want, thanks.

Gnight.

I asked for evidence, you trotted out an out of context remark. I've not ignored it, I looked up the whole piece and even then still see it as 1 guy making a statement which could just as easily be used for NATO, or any other international organisation. Provide actual evidence. Please. I've been begging for years, and I'm still waiting. 

Sovereignty is a buzzword thrown around, with no definition. I asked you and have asked you over and over what we lost and gained. Much like the Brexit plan, there's nothing to it. Just a word, an idea, but no idea how to achieve it or to justify it. 

You got what you want? Bully for you old boy. I lost my entire way of living after being refused by the government to have a vote in the referendum, as did many, many thousands of expats, the same government and parliament that lied, cheated and stole to get what they wanted without actually knowing what that was. I lost my freedom of movement and subsequently a job in Austria.

So apologies for insisting on actual evidence and plans over and over even though I know they don't exist. If that's bitter, wanting actual answers rather than clips or buzzword, then colour me lemon. I think it's more not letting a bunch of lying scumbag millionaires getting away with things without repercussions, the same people who are now putting part of the UK back into the EU (to all intents and purposes).

[Palfy]

The proof is clear now from a financial side that leaving the EU has been a complete disaster, Brexiteers were told by Boris that there would be no costs they needed us much more than we needed them, it was an oven ready deal, we were going to save 360 million a week to plough into NHS, how many of those 17.4 million voted out just on those lies. Then the little Britain element were fed the lies of we will take control of our borders, we will not give up our sovereignty, now our country's borders are more open then ever from people outside of the EU, the amount of South Americans I encounter on my visits to where we have contracts is now far more than I ever experienced of EU nationals when we were in the EU, and these are low skilled South Americans mainly from Brazil, they are the element on the skills base that those fighting for Brexit said wouldn't be allowed in the country, at least when in the EU the low skilled work force that was arriving from other EU countries could be vetted on a database that gave you some history of that person, not so with the South Americans we have no clue of their past which is dangerous to say the least. On the case of Sovereignty that is now the only thing left the hardened Brexiteers have left in their arsenal to say they made the right decision to vote leave, everything else they used to vote leave on, the facts and the evidence because they are being lived through prove they were wrong and the remainers right, except Sovereignty because there is no true evidence for or against, so Brexiteers use hear say in their evidence as fact that Sovereignty was an issue and they saved our Sovereignty. EU law was agreed to by all member states, any article in the EU laws that any member didn't agree with they had the power of a veto to stop that being ratified and becoming EU law, so whilst in the EU we always had the power to veto anything that threatened our Sovereignty. We only have as any source of evidence regarding Sovereignty to look at the existing 27 members to see if they have lost their Sovereignty and the answer is as yet no they haven't, and Poland being good evidence that you can use your veto if you feel that something isn't right for your country, which they did and stood firm on as Britain has on many occasions, so you would only in my opinion lose your sovereignty if you agreed to hand over your Sovereignty. 
I firmly believe Brexit has been a complete failure and I cannot find one factually proven benefit to our country since we left, and trust me I have looked, and if anyone comes back at me with sovereignty I will say bollocks where is the evidence that we would have lost our sovereignty and democracy if we stayed in the EU. 

[Palfy]

46 minutes ago, RPG said:

One very obvious benefit is that we are freeing ourselves from being subject to EU rules that could be and would have been imposed on us as a vassal state of the United States of Europe. That is very important to people who know and appreciate the true meaning of freedom. I have no sympathy for the argument that it is better to be a comfortable slave than a poor free man. I find it a very selfish and short sighted way to view the situation as we have no right to give up the freedom of future generations, won for us by our previous generations. We are the custodians of that freedom. It is not ours to give away.

It may take time but the UK will offer the opportunity to be a comfortable free man and that is something that the EU would never have allowed.

It is not 'only sovereignty' as you described it. Sovereignty is very important and it embodies everything that a free UK stands for and which was being stripped away from us, one inch (sorry cm) at a time by the EU. It is not 'only' Sovereignty. Sovereignty is a very powerful quality and it is worth fighting for if necessary - just ask any Ukrainian. It makes me laugh that many people who are trying to decry the sovereignty argument are the first one's to support it when it comes to Ukraine maintaining their sovereignty. Russia is trying to strip sovereignty away by military means, the EU by political means but the intended outcome (minus the deaths) is the same.

The crux of the matter is that the UK is a democracy, whilst the USE is a Federation and has much less democracy and transparency than UK. The two political systems were never going to merge happily and remember that the EU (then known as the common market) was missold to the UK electorate as a pure free trade association amid assurances that there would never be any political union or loss of sovereignty. That was a lie. If it had remained a free trade association I am sure we would still be 'in' but political union with the rest of Europe is not what we signed up for and, as demonstrated in 2016, is not what we want.

Regarding trade figures; Covid-19 and Ukraine war is probably distorting matters considerably. It will, of course, take time to build new trading relationships, strengthen existing ones and expand our manufacturing base after EU decimated it. But it can and, I believe, will be done

Would you or I have got a vote on Von de Leyden as President of EU if we had voted remain?

Did I get a vote for Liz Truss or Rushi Sunak being Prime Minister. The deals that have been made with countries to try and bridge the cap of us leaving the EU don't even scratch the service of what we gave up, a deranged Liz Truss going round the world signing trade deals that were sailing this country down the river, and in particular it's farmers was frankly embarrassing yet the even more deranged Boris Johnson was hailing them as some great success. What happened to the oven ready deal all leavers were talking about, what happened to the deal with the USA that was going to change the fortunes of every man woman and child in this country, what happened to taking control of our borders so that no one could come here to work unless they had a skill that was needed, all rubbish and lies to pray on people into believing leave was right for them and the country. 
And to defend the decision to vote leave we will make it all about Sovereignty, like I said any EU laws that were made were agreed to by all members or they wouldn't be in existence, and to be fair to the EU they gave people more rights and protection and freedom than was ever experienced by any generation before, what was so bad about workers rights, what was so bad about governments working together on sharing information on terrorism, on returning criminals to the country they had committed crimes in, on giving people the freedom to work and travel freely in other EU countries. We weren't giving up our Sovereignty or democracy and they weren't being taken from us, you say generations before had fought for our freedom yes they did in 2 world wars started in Europe, if the EU was In existence in 1913 and 1939 those wars would not have happened. 
Russia's invasion of Ukraine bares no resemblance whatsoever with us being in the EU, and to try and make a case that a country that is fighting for its survival whilst having horrific war crimes committed against it is in someways comparable is in poor taste, and there are no similarities with what's happening Ukraine to us or any other country in the EU. In fact you have scored an own goal as to the strength and security that being in a union brings, if Ukraine was in NATO do you think Russia would have dared attack Ukraine knowing full well they would have been destroyed by the full force of NATO, I say not a chance in hell. 

[MikeO]

 

[Palfy]

9 minutes ago, MikeO said:

 

Funny but so true. 

[Palfy]

In 2019 the Tories pledged that they would cut net migration from 25,000, when figures are released shortly for last year they are expected to pass 700,000. For those that voted out because they believed that we would be financially better off, or we would ditch EU laws and rules, or we would take control back over our borders and cut migration. Are you now regretting your decision or did you vote out for none of the above, maybe you were persuaded because of the big red bus. But if it was for none of the above then please tell me why and if you think it has been successful and met your expectations that the country would be more successful outside of the EU. 

[Palfy]

2 hours ago, RPG said:

I’m not regretting Brexit one iota. Easy for me to say as I don’t live in the UK and I do have sympathy for those who feel adversely affected by Brexit but I still maintain that, long term, we are, or will be, far better off (not just financially) by being out of EU.

There is no long term for Brexit ever becoming a success, every month that passes sees more Brexit policies and promises fall by the wayside, I honestly can’t find one positive or one promise from the Brexit campaign that has come close to being a reality, the reality is Brexit has been catastrophic failure. And long term future of success will be the United Kingdom returning to the EU.  The ready cooked deal has poisoned everyone including those who voted for it. 

[Matt]

On 20/05/2023 at 14:12, RPG said:

That’s your opinion which you seem very attached to and I fully respect your right and freedom to have. Mine is different. I supported Brexit because it freed us from EU control of our domestic policies and restored our Sovereignty - which I know is a dirty word and concept for some, but we have fought too many wars (winning most) to give away in peacetime what we fought so hard to hold onto in wartime at such a high price.

I remain very pro Europe but very anti EU.

Except it hasn't and won't any time soon according to the Conservatives.

https://youtube.com/shorts/702DwdrmAfk?feature=share

 

[Matt]

12 minutes ago, RPG said:

Patience Grasshopper. It’s a process not a light switch moment.

It's been 7 years. I could've made a candle from my earwax and burnt it down by now. 

Ignorance is bliss seems more accurate. 

[Matt]

1 minute ago, RPG said:

These type of changes take decades. Things are happening but Rome wasn’t built in a day. The EU has spent over 40 years trapping us in its administrative prison. A controlled but inexorable exit from all Brussels interference is the way to go.

I can agree with the timeline part at least (whilst screwing the younger generations 1 step further than the old generations already have), not least because there's still no fucking plan and still no definition of what it actually means, even between Leave voters. 

 

 

[Matt]

8 minutes ago, RPG said:

Yes, those generations that fought and won two world wars to preserve and ensure the freedom of the next generations really shouldn’t have bothered, should they.

There is a saying (can’t remember it verbatim) which goes:

Hard times produce strong people. (1940/50s)

Strong people produce good times.(1960/70/80s)

Good times produce weak people. (1990/2000)

Weak people produce hard times. (2000 onwards)

Alternatively, I can recommend a google search for ‘The Tytler Cycle’

I am hoping that we are now back at the start of the cycle and Brexit is as good a place to start as any.

When most are now dead or regretting their decisions, whilst pushing the country into recession that sees their pensions suffer? 

I highly doubt many from WW1 voted, what with the Brexit vote being 98 years after the end of the war. 

Good a place a start? It's been 7 fucking years and there's still no idea what it means. When is this "start" going to happen?

I'm a child of the 80s by the way. I would not say the 70s and 80s up here were good times, not even close. Funny coincidence, we had the Conservatives in charge then too didn't we...

[MikeO]

 

[Palfy]

2 hours ago, MikeO said:

 

Putting it more simply Brexiteers are idiots they never new what they were voting for in reality, remainers new what they were voting for they were already living in that reality. I could go simpler but I don’t want to appear to abusive to Brexiteers they must be feeling gullible and financially impacted as it is. The saddest thing for me is that a generation are going to have to bare the brunt of this disaster, how are the 52% going to make this right for their children and grandchildren, the answer is there not they are going to bury their heads in the sand and leave to the remainers to sort their mess. 7 years later and it still pains that I could happily kick everyone of them. 

[Palfy]

3 hours ago, RPG said:

This Brexiteer doesn't consider himself an idiot.

You say you don't want to be abusive to Brexiteers in the sentence after you called them idiots! What's that - Remain speak for 'Great Decision to Leave EU?'

I am certainly not feeling gullible and still believe that Brexit is the best thing for the long term benefit of the UK.

And you finish with more abuse to the Brexiteers that you don't want to abuse by saying that you could 'happily kick every one of them' This Brexiteer would happily kick you back - hard!

On a more cerebal level, of course the last few years were going to be painful. Ukraine, Covid-19 etc are global problems which have impacted every economy in the world. To suggest that if we had voted Remain we would have been spared those effects is, without wishing to be too abusive to Remainers, total bolleaux. But one thing that no impact on the global economy can take away from the UK is our Sovereignty - yes, that dirty word that Remainers don't like because they struggle to either fully understand the concept and its importance or they fail to produce one credible argument why they can justify letting the day to day affairs of the UK be micromanaged and legally controlled by a bunch of unelected tax dodgers in Brussels - or Strasbourg, depending on which week of the month it is.

As far as next generations are concerned, look back just 2 - 3 generations and see what they did for us. It is not unreasonable to expect a little pay back from future generations is it - especially if you want to continue being protected by all the freedoms that free people in the UK and around the free world have fought and died to protect and preserve for us? If you don't fancy playing your part in preserving our hard won freedoms, then Putin's Russia will probably give you instant citizenship, today, Comrade.

The really sad thing to see is the level of ignorance related to the preservation of freedom. Freedom isn't free and once you lose it, the cost of recovering it goes up exponentially. Maybe the real failing of us old codgers is not getting that message through to a generation of people who have made the grave mistake of taking their own freedom for granted.

Have a look at the Tytler Cycle for a simple explanation of the concept and maybe ask yourself where you think we are as a country in that cycle, right now.

Idiot. 

[Palfy]

On 31/05/2023 at 10:02, RPG said:

Being a child of the 80s you have no experience of what the 40s and 50s were like. Believe me, the 70s and 80s were superb times by comparison (even if the 80s didn’t suit your political preferences - but thats a separate discussion).

Most seniors are, like me, pro Europe and anti EU. Sure, the remnants of the Remain lobby can trot out the odd old guy who will regurgitate their sound bites for them, but the majority are happy to be out of EU.

Idiot. 

[Palfy]

2 hours ago, RPG said:

And for those people who are blinkered enough to only view Brexit through economic googles, even that argument doesn't really stand up any longer. Have a look at Germany for example, supposedly the strongest economy in the EU:

German economy bids goodbye to years of plenty (msn.com)

Caused by in the main Brexit, only recently watched a news report on the effect Brexit had on the EU and in particular Germany who were our biggest trading partner before Brexit. Other countries suffering due to Brexit doesn’t make it right, yet no other EU countries failings since Brexit come anywhere near close to ours. A complete own goal by mainly idiots with a racist agenda regarding borders, and even that promise of we will take back control over our borders failed with an increase of nearly 700% more migrants entering the country legally , the right wing press and government don’t like to report that, and for people of my generation and older that was the biggest reason they voted Brexit, because they believed that taking control of our borders meant no more migrants and refugees because that’s how the Brexit campaigners sold it to them, by praying on the insecurities of the oldest generation in the country. 

[Palfy]

44 minutes ago, RPG said:

So, if you really believe that the UK leaving the EU is hurting the EU's strongest economy that badly, it surely demonstrates how much we (over) contributed to the EU in the first place does it not and that we are therefore better off out of it? Your argument shoots itself down, no need for me to do it.

You need to get off your racist/idiots soap box here Palfy. I know many pro brexit people and none of them are either racist or idiots. Many of them are non white and a surprisingly large amount are, I am confident to say, far better educated and qualified to speak on the matter than you or I.

Some people have been disadvantaged by Brexit, mainly those Brits who either lived, worked, did business or had a second home in EU. The solution to that was simple but the EU chose not to give retrospective rights to those Brits in that situation - further evidence (if ever it were needed) of the dictatorial and controlling nature of the United States of Europe. If the EU had remained what we had signed up for and what it was sold to us as (a Common Market / Free Trade Area) then it may have been a success. But it is now trying to build a United States of Europe and and it is concentrating on politics and sovereignty stripping ahead of any genuine common market / free trade agenda.

I find it mind boggling though that you can try to blame German'y economic collapse on Brexit. That is getting desperate Palfy.

Not at all blaming it all on Brexit obviously other factors have contributed, or are you unaware of Covid and the war in Ukraine I really didn’t think I would need to spell that out, but of course Brexit has contributed anyone with the modicum of knowledge would realise that. Please explain why we are much worse off than any other the countries in the EU since Brexit, or of course you can always try denying it or pretending it hasn’t happened as most Brexiteers seem to do. And of course the generation I was talking about are mainly institutionalised racist that unfortunately was normal for the time they grew up in 40s, 50s, 60s, and even the 70s, let’s not forget in those decades people from different ethnic backgrounds were a very small percentage to now and wouldn’t have tipped the balance in the slightest on those who are white indigenous and are mainly institutionalised racist, of which I include myself in that category all though every day I do try to change my thoughts and I’m very much guided fortunately by my children. 

[Palfy]

2 hours ago, RPG said:

The link I posted referred to Germany taking up the title of the sick man of Europe - with supporting data in the article for how Germany deserves the title. I think that provides all the answer you need. So, Germany is in a worse position than the UK for starters which shoots down your argument again.

All countries are suffering but Germany is not suffering by 'in the main Brexit' as you stated in your initial reply. To try to mainly blame Brexit for Germany's economic demise is inaccurate and unfair. I am pleased to see you retract that statement. Of course, as I have already previously stated, Ukraine and Covid-19 has impacted the economy's of all countries and is the reason that the UK has seen higher interest rates - nothing to do with Brexit. The ECB has a rate of 4.0% with further rate hikes signalled, USA is at 5.0% with further rate hikes signalled and UK is also at 5.0% with further rate hikes signalled. Inflation in those areas is running at 7.0%, 4.0% and 6.5% (CPIH) respectively. So we are doing better than EU and comparable with USA in the global battle against inflation. For reference with the rest of the world, Turkey has inflation of 40% and an interest rate of 15%, Australia has an interest rate of 4.1% and inflation of 7.8% with further interest rate rises signalled.

So, we are not doing worse than all other countries in the EU (as you wrongly stated) and we are doing considerably better than or comparable with most countries on the world stage - which is the post brexit benchmark.

It would, however, be a big mistake to look at selected figures in isolation. For example, inflation in Russia at the moment is only 2.5% see https://tradingeconomics.com/russia/inflation-cpi but you would not really want to be holding or buying Roubles at the moment.

Change is always the same. Some people will welcome it, embrace it and make a great success of it. Some may not welcome it but are still smart enough to make a success of it. Then there are the people who desperately cling to the past and look for any reason to try to undermine the future. Those that accept the new reality and adapt to it best will be the one's who thrive and prosper.

The future of the UK is to be successful on the global stage, free of any dictats imposed by the United States of Europe.

Why talk about countries out of the EU and how poor their economies are that just proves that you are better off in the EU when discussing what is more economically advantageous, and out of 28 countries in the EU when Britain left we suffered considerable more and still are. But not saying the world in general isn’t feeling the effects of other outside factors to their economies, but of all the EU economies at the time of Brexit ours is by far the worst and getting worse every day. The magnificent trade deals we were promised with the biggest economies out side of the EU never materialised, so in desperation Truss and Johnson signed trade agreements with smaller countries that didn’t benefit us at all instead they had the opposite effect, further desperation to try and prove Brexit a success when the reality is it’s an utter disaster. 

[Palfy]

1 hour ago, RPG said:

The rest of the world is relevant as that is our post brexit benchmark.

I disagree that we would be better off had we stayed in the EU but, even if we were not better off, I would still be in favour of brexit. You spoke about considering future generations, but to stay in the EU just to make a Euro would be selling the freedom of our future UK generations - totally the opposite of what previous UK generations fought to protect and preserve for us.

The Common Market/EEC/EU spent 43 years stripping the UK of its manufacturing assets and attempting to take away its sovereignty one cm at a time and it will take time to undo all that damage Maybe you and I won't see the full benefit in our lifetimes (though I am confident we will see some) but that is a price I am prepared to pay as a debt of honour to previous generations and because of our responsibility to future UK generations.

Not going to respond for a day or 2 not long come out the operating theatre with my full right knee replacement. Catch up with you tomorrow hopefully. On predict-a text and nearly pressed honey instead of hopefully, now that would have been a first for the Brexiteers and remainers living in harmony

[Palfy]

1 minute ago, RPG said:

Get well soon. I had no idea you were going under the knife. No doubt we will continue our verbal sparring soon.

Thanks mate I hope to. But do you ever get the feeling that we are going over old ground all over again. 

[Gwlad]

2 hours ago, Palfy said:

Not going to respond for a day or 2 not long come out the operating theatre with my full right knee replacement. Catch up with you tomorrow hopefully. On predict-a text and nearly pressed honey instead of hopefully, now that would have been a first for the Brexiteers and remainers living in harmony

Get fit soon and do all the physio. My brother had a knee replacement a couple of years ago, the operation area was a picture 

[Palfy]

46 minutes ago, Gwlad all over said:

Get fit soon and do all the physio. My brother had a knee replacement a couple of years ago, the operation area was a picture 

Cheers mate. I have seen what the scaring looks like and I’m contemplating what tattoo I can have to turn it into a work of art. All ideas will be considered. 

[MikeO]

5 minutes ago, Palfy said:

Cheers mate. I have seen what the scaring looks like and I’m contemplating what tattoo I can have to turn it into a work of art. All ideas will be considered. 

Leave it, scars are tattoos with better stories!

[Gwlad]

Brexit or comparing operation scars? That's Toffeetalk at its best 

[Palfy]

3 hours ago, MikeO said:

Leave it, scars are tattoos with better stories!

In your case very true mate, they are definitely the stories of a life well worth fighting for

[Romey 1878]

13 hours ago, MikeO said:

Leave it, scars are tattoos with better stories!

A titty shot as soon as I log in on a Tuesday morning. What more can a man want?

[Matt]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-66731164

1 step in the right direction I guess...

[Matt]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-6678665

...

 

[MikeO]

4 minutes ago, Matt said:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-6678665

...

[Matt]

1 minute ago, MikeO said:

How ironic

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-66786650

 

[MikeO]

9 minutes ago, Matt said:

How ironic

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-66786650

Read that in bed this morning, nothing like a good chuckle to start the day.

[MikeO]