General Election/UK Politics

[patto]

33 minutes ago, Hafnia said:

I feel sorry for them.  I feel sorry that the leadership they have is piss poor, I feel sorry that my mate has left the police cos he couldn’t stand the fact that crime in our region is escalating beyond control and it was making him sick.

i feel sorry that people get their houses attacked and feel like prisoners in their own home while feral pieces of shit run amok on their estate 

 

 

I understand everything you are saying but I don’t blame the  people on the beat they are trying to do a job with their hands tied behind their backs we have to blame our governments over the past 30 years they have encouraged mass immigration even to the point of giving them handouts when they hit the shore. 
and besides that we have our own problems with the Drugs and theft. 

[Hafnia]

27 minutes ago, patto said:

I understand everything you are saying but I don’t blame the  people on the beat they are trying to do a job with their hands tied behind their backs we have to blame our governments over the past 30 years they have encouraged mass immigration even to the point of giving them handouts when they hit the shore. 
and besides that we have our own problems with the Drugs and theft. 

I didn’t say that I did. If you look at my posts they clearly aim my frustrations at the likes of Rowley, Khan, and the people at the top of the tree. 

These police officers have mortgages to pay, so do their superiors, unless they walk from their jobs or make their lives very difficult by opposing those who give the orders - they have to do as they are told. 
 

for the future of our country policing needs to be uniformly zero tolerance. 
 

my cousin who is an inspector would have a very different way of policing if it was up to him - but it’s not, he does as he is told. 

[patto]

54 minutes ago, Hafnia said:

I didn’t say that I did. If you look at my posts they clearly aim my frustrations at the likes of Rowley, Khan, and the people at the top of the tree. 

These police officers have mortgages to pay, so do their superiors, unless they walk from their jobs or make their lives very difficult by opposing those who give the orders - they have to do as they are told. 
 

for the future of our country policing needs to be uniformly zero tolerance. 
 

my cousin who is an inspector would have a very different way of policing if it was up to him - but it’s not, he does as he is told. 

Problem is we don’t have the prisons for zero tolerance the country is massively overcrowded we don’t have enough housing to keep allowing illegal migrants to enter our country someone needs to have the balls to call a stop to it. 

[MikeO]

35 minutes ago, patto said:

Problem is we don’t have the prisons for zero tolerance the country is massively overcrowded we don’t have enough housing to keep allowing illegal migrants to enter our country someone needs to have the balls to call a stop to it. 

You need to get over the myth that immigrants, legal or otherwise, get provided with housing. It's not true.

Only if/when someone gets an asylum request granted so they have refugee status can they can join social housing waiting lists, and then they're subject to the same qualification criteria as everybody else. Nobody is "put to the bottom" of the list to make way for anyone.

And illegal immigrants don't get "handouts when they hit the shore" at all, they have zero entitlement to benefits...

Illegal immigrants cannot claim benefits in the UK. A person is classed as an illegal immigrant when they do not have the right to remain in the country.

The UK government, in response to a petition urging it to “Stop all benefits to illegal immigrants completely”, said in 2015: “Illegal immigrants and failed asylum seekers are not entitled to, and do not get, benefits from the UK’s welfare system”.

 

 

[London Blue]

Haff, firstly working time directives don't apply to the Police so that not the first shift I have done that went past 18 hours.

 

2 hours ago, Hafnia said:

 

Dave Gilmores son got 16 months for swinging on a flag on the cenotaph.   This is the two tier policing we are talking about. 

No Haff it is not, as the Tweet correctly states, climbing on a war memorial is not illegal. 

Dave Gilmores son was arrested charged and convicted for violent disorder. His actions are listed below from BBC news report of the court hearing:

He was seen hanging from a Union flag on the Cenotaph and leaping on to the bonnet of a Jaguar - part of a royal convoy.

Gilmour was previously found by a judge at Kingston-upon-Thames Crown Court to have thrown a rubbish bin at the vehicle.

 So not "Two Tier Policing" but the difference between someone breaking the law, (Gilmore), and someone being disrespectful which is not a criminal offence (protester).

In this country we have enshrined in law the right to protest and freedom of expression, which is a very good thing in my opinion. People must be free to express themselves and protest as long as it does not break the law.

The Law is not decided by the Police, it is decided by parliament who legislate and the courts who interpret the law and set legal precedents. When major protests take place we regularly have lawyers present to advise on if laws have been broken.

With the Palestinian Peace protest last weekend,  there were over 300,000 people protesting, the vast, vast, majority peacefully. There were offences committed regarding antisemitism and hate crimes, and arrests were made. Where it was not practicable to arrest at the time. Trust me as someone who deals with large crowd dynamics one of the last things you want in a large crowd with children, and elderly people is panic. By charging in to make an arrest when you have an opportunity to gather evidence and affect an arrest later you achieve the same result, but it is more proportionate. Everything we do as Police Officers has to be  proportionate. 

The counter protesters mainly made up of far right groups engaged in violence and disorder from the start and were arrested because of the threat and risk they caused. 

This is a case of the Police acting upon the evidence presented to it and the legal powers available to it.

We could not object to the Palestinian protest as it according to the law we have to have evidence of serious disorder.

Sir Mark Rowley said earlier this week the legal threshold which would allow him to ask the Home Office for permission to ban the march had not been met. He also stressed there are no powers in UK law to ban a static demonstration. If we tried to ban the march we would have to go before a court to show the evidence to back this up, we did not have it so we could not ask the Home Secretary to ban it.

Do we the Police make mistakes, yes we do as in the case of the Sarah Everard vigil, but they are honest mistakes, remember at the time we were under Covid restrictions which complicated things. Many aspects of policing demonstrations are balancing acts between peoples right to protest and peoples rights to go about their normal lives, through in Covid restrictions and it makes it much more complicated.

 

I'll deal with the other half of Haffs wisdoms later 

 

 

[patto]

34 minutes ago, MikeO said:

You need to get over the myth that immigrants, legal or otherwise, get provided with housing. It's not true.

Only if/when someone gets an asylum request granted so they have refugee status can they can join social housing waiting lists, and then they're subject to the same qualification criteria as everybody else. Nobody is "put to the bottom" of the list to make way for anyone.

And illegal immigrants don't get "handouts when they hit the shore" at all, they have zero entitlement to benefits...

Illegal immigrants cannot claim benefits in the UK. A person is classed as an illegal immigrant when they do not have the right to remain in the country.

The UK government, in response to a petition urging it to “Stop all benefits to illegal immigrants completely”, said in 2015: “Illegal immigrants and failed asylum seekers are not entitled to, and do not get, benefits from the UK’s welfare system”.

 

 

I’m not going into this again with you maybe your town/city/village is different but I know what is happening in Liverpool regarding the so called housing list. 

[MikeO]

13 minutes ago, patto said:

I’m not going into this again with you maybe your town/city/village is different but I know what is happening in Liverpool regarding the so called housing list. 

The law is the law wherever you live, and Liverpool City council won't be breaking it.

[patto]

7 minutes ago, MikeO said:

The law is the law wherever you live, and Liverpool City council won't be breaking it.

Maybe you should try speaking to some local Liverpool people who are on the list some have been on it for years. 

[MikeO]

9 minutes ago, patto said:

Maybe you should try speaking to some local Liverpool people who are on the list some have been on it for years. 

Just like everywhere in the country, that's not down to immigration, it's down to government failures.

[Matt]

1 hour ago, MikeO said:

Just like everywhere in the country, that's not down to immigration, it's down to government failures.

Exactly this, and to deflect attention away from themselves, the Cuntservatives have pointed their grubby little fingers at the easy target whilst raking in the money and keeping it away from the areas that actually need it. You've got to be willfully ignorant to not see that. 

[Hafnia]

8 hours ago, London Blue said:

Haff, firstly working time directives don't apply to the Police so that not the first shift I have done that went past 18 hours.

 

No Haff it is not, as the Tweet correctly states, climbing on a war memorial is not illegal. 

Dave Gilmores son was arrested charged and convicted for violent disorder. His actions are listed below from BBC news report of the court hearing:

He was seen hanging from a Union flag on the Cenotaph and leaping on to the bonnet of a Jaguar - part of a royal convoy.

Gilmour was previously found by a judge at Kingston-upon-Thames Crown Court to have thrown a rubbish bin at the vehicle.

 So not "Two Tier Policing" but the difference between someone breaking the law, (Gilmore), and someone being disrespectful which is not a criminal offence (protester).

In this country we have enshrined in law the right to protest and freedom of expression, which is a very good thing in my opinion. People must be free to express themselves and protest as long as it does not break the law.

The Law is not decided by the Police, it is decided by parliament who legislate and the courts who interpret the law and set legal precedents. When major protests take place we regularly have lawyers present to advise on if laws have been broken.

With the Palestinian Peace protest last weekend,  there were over 300,000 people protesting, the vast, vast, majority peacefully. There were offences committed regarding antisemitism and hate crimes, and arrests were made. Where it was not practicable to arrest at the time. Trust me as someone who deals with large crowd dynamics one of the last things you want in a large crowd with children, and elderly people is panic. By charging in to make an arrest when you have an opportunity to gather evidence and affect an arrest later you achieve the same result, but it is more proportionate. Everything we do as Police Officers has to be  proportionate. 

The counter protesters mainly made up of far right groups engaged in violence and disorder from the start and were arrested because of the threat and risk they caused. 

This is a case of the Police acting upon the evidence presented to it and the legal powers available to it.

We could not object to the Palestinian protest as it according to the law we have to have evidence of serious disorder.

Sir Mark Rowley said earlier this week the legal threshold which would allow him to ask the Home Office for permission to ban the march had not been met. He also stressed there are no powers in UK law to ban a static demonstration. If we tried to ban the march we would have to go before a court to show the evidence to back this up, we did not have it so we could not ask the Home Secretary to ban it.

Do we the Police make mistakes, yes we do as in the case of the Sarah Everard vigil, but they are honest mistakes, remember at the time we were under Covid restrictions which complicated things. Many aspects of policing demonstrations are balancing acts between peoples right to protest and peoples rights to go about their normal lives, through in Covid restrictions and it makes it much more complicated.

 

I'll deal with the other half of Haffs wisdoms later 

 

 

Make mistakes?  Of course you make mistakes.  You are under the belief that the laws you are enforcing are done so consistently. It’s the arrogance and toxicity that has led to over 1000 met police being suspended or on reduced duties. 

Plenty of arrests were made for “breach of peace” on Saturday, yet your twitter operative chose to forget that given option for the flag wavers on the cenotaph…. Hmmm funny that. 

If the “right wing hooligans” who wanted to get close to the cenotaph on Saturday who were kettled among many other veterans and patriots, mounted the monument with flags - you are telling me they wouldn’t be arrested in the same way that great peace protesters who scaled Nelson’s column in 2014 were arrested? Bollocks and you know it. 
 

Practical and proportionate?  Maybe that could be contrived as “not wanting to stir the hornets nest that you fear the most” …. Let’s be honest that all we are seeing, as per below and the reply from your employers.   The Jay report was an insight into how the police force react when the fear of racism accusations actually prevents them from doing their job fully. 
 

Listen, you’ve got your job to do and I’m sure you do it well. You have your superiors to take your orders off and you’ve got bills to pay.  I get it. 

 

The publics trust is at an all time low in the force. I’ve always backed the police, so this isn’t an agenda.

[Matt]

1 hour ago, Hafnia said:

Make mistakes?  Of course you make mistakes.  You are under the belief that the laws you are enforcing are done so consistently. It’s the arrogance and toxicity that has led to over 1000 met police being suspended or on reduced duties. 

Plenty of arrests were made for “breach of peace” on Saturday, yet your twitter operative chose to forget that given option for the flag wavers on the cenotaph…. Hmmm funny that. 

If the “right wing hooligans” who wanted to get close to the cenotaph on Saturday who were kettled among many other veterans and patriots, mounted the monument with flags - you are telling me they wouldn’t be arrested in the same way that great peace protesters who scaled Nelson’s column in 2014 were arrested? Bollocks and you know it. 
 

Practical and proportionate?  Maybe that could be contrived as “not wanting to stir the hornets nest that you fear the most” …. Let’s be honest that all we are seeing, as per below and the reply from your employers.   The Jay report was an insight into how the police force react when the fear of racism accusations actually prevents them from doing their job fully. 
 

Listen, you’ve got your job to do and I’m sure you do it well. You have your superiors to take your orders off and you’ve got bills to pay.  I get it. 

 

The publics trust is at an all time low in the force. I’ve always backed the police, so this isn’t an agenda.

I think the fact you can pull individual instances when there was 888,000 reported last year says a lot about the standards to be honest. Don't get me wrong, it needs to be better but then it needs to be supported and the government has systematically cut funding over 13 years. Standards are naturally going to drop and the only people who can actually change that, for a change, is the public. 

[Palfy]

28 minutes ago, Matt said:

I think the fact you can pull individual instances when there was 888,000 reported last year says a lot about the standards to be honest. Don't get me wrong, it needs to be better but then it needs to be supported and the government has systematically cut funding over 13 years. Standards are naturally going to drop and the only people who can actually change that, for a change, is the public. 

For me it’s the people who work in Met that are it’s biggest problem the Met is full of racist, sexist, and homophobic bullying with a boy’s club culture, if you have the time and inclination try and read Baroness Louise Casey’s report, trust me it’s an eye opener, I don’t see how more money will change and improve the culture of the Met until they weed out the arseholes, the downside to this is there are probably more arseholes in the Met than decent people. 

[Hafnia]

1 hour ago, Matt said:

I think the fact you can pull individual instances when there was 888,000 reported last year says a lot about the standards to be honest. Don't get me wrong, it needs to be better but then it needs to be supported and the government has systematically cut funding over 13 years. Standards are naturally going to drop and the only people who can actually change that, for a change, is the public. 

The government have shafted the people of this country from policing, healthcare, justice system, to education. Not gonna argue with that. 
 

I actually started pricing private secondary schools last week, a bit extreme and financially out of my league but fook me….. if I’m doing that it shows how little I trust our government to run things properly 

[Matt]

1 hour ago, Palfy said:

For me it’s the people who work in Met that are it’s biggest problem the Met is full of racist, sexist, and homophobic bullying with a boy’s club culture, if you have the time and inclination try and read Baroness Louise Casey’s report, trust me it’s an eye opener, I don’t see how more money will change and improve the culture of the Met until they weed out the arseholes, the downside to this is there are probably more arseholes in the Met than decent people. 

It's not full of at all. There are more than acceptable number of cunts like there are in any group, but to label all nearly 50,000 people with the same brush as those evil exceptions is just insulting and ignorant. 

[London Blue]

3 hours ago, Hafnia said:

Make mistakes?  Of course you make mistakes.  You are under the belief that the laws you are enforcing are done so consistently. It’s the arrogance and toxicity that has led to over 1000 met police being suspended or on reduced duties. 

Plenty of arrests were made for “breach of peace” on Saturday, yet your twitter operative chose to forget that given option for the flag wavers on the cenotaph…. Hmmm funny that. 

If the “right wing hooligans” who wanted to get close to the cenotaph on Saturday who were kettled among many other veterans and patriots, mounted the monument with flags - you are telling me they wouldn’t be arrested in the same way that great peace protesters who scaled Nelson’s column in 2014 were arrested? Bollocks and you know it. 
 

Practical and proportionate?  Maybe that could be contrived as “not wanting to stir the hornets nest that you fear the most” …. Let’s be honest that all we are seeing, as per below and the reply from your employers.   The Jay report was an insight into how the police force react when the fear of racism accusations actually prevents them from doing their job fully. 
 

Listen, you’ve got your job to do and I’m sure you do it well. You have your superiors to take your orders off and you’ve got bills to pay.  I get it. 

 

The publics trust is at an all time low in the force. I’ve always backed the police, so this isn’t an agenda.

Firstly Haff, yes officers make mistakes of course, we are humans put into difficult positions where we have to make split second decisions.

With regard to the 1000 officers suspended or on restricted duties, I don't know where you got that number from and I would be interested to know. Suspended and on restricted duties is a practice used on officers while an investigation is carried out. As I am sure you know, they have to go through due process and an allegation does not mean they are guilty, after all innocent until proven guilty also applies to Police Officers!! 

The great thing now is that we have body warn cameras so it's much easier and faster to resolve complaints. Infact the number of complaints against officers came down once cameras were introduced.

Thats not to say there are not bad officers who deserve to be sacked, sadly they are, and frankly the sooner they are out of the force the better. I fully accept the Baroness Casey report and am ashamed that some officers act that way. The commissioner is determined to change the culture in the MET and the vast majority of officers, myself included are committed to helping him do that, but it will take time.

I am sure that the laws we police are enforced pretty consistently, you have to remember that we the Police do not make charging decisions, that is the job of the Crown Prosecution Service. The man on the Cenotaph was arrested for violent disorder as he jumped on a car and threw a bin at another vehicle, the CPS made the decision to charge him and the court convicted him. He was not just waving a flag he was being violent, a big difference and remember our actions have to be proportionate. 

With regard to the video, I would first remind Mr Atherton that the protestors are British people too, although this does not give them the right to attack people. The video is confusing and it's difficult to judge exactly what is happening. The officers' actions are being looked at, their video footage will be reviewed and they will be spoken to find out their decision making process. All officers in command have decision logs to record why they did what they did, or did not do what they didn't do. Hopefully this will provide clarity and learning so officers make better decisions next time.

The so called "Patriots and veterans" who tried to get to the Cenotaph on Saturday were breaking the law because an exclusion zone was put in place to protect a lawful ceremony taking place by the Western Front Association at the Cenotaph. I am pretty sure that actual veterans could have applied to them to take part. Instead, they tried to push their way through to the Cenotaph and attacked Police Officers who stopped them. They also shouted things like "You're not British anymore" at Police, charming.....

If they had just been waving flags and climbing on monuments not in the exclusion zone then, as we have established, they would not of been committing offenses, and we would have no grounds to take action. Lawful and proportionate remember.  

They were violent, Police feared they would go on to cause more violence or disorder and they were arrested. Like I said there were legal experts advising Police in real time as to what offences had been committed and what constituted a crime. 

Lastly Haff the Police are a disciplined service and I like all other officers follow orders, but I am responsible for the actions I take. Nobody can order a Police Officer to arrest someone, unless they are wanted, each arrest has to be based on the genuine held belief that a crime has been committed and the person has committed it. I have a duty to call out bad behaviour and I have, several times, and will continue to do so. I do not and will not turn a blind eye as you suggest.

I suggest Haff you become a special constable, then you could see for yourself how the Police work, you could call out bad behaviour and maybe you could help bring down crime in your area.  So Haff what are you waiting for I'll send you the link to apply if you like?

[Palfy]

1 hour ago, Matt said:

It's not full of at all. There are more than acceptable number of cunts like there are in any group, but to label all nearly 50,000 people with the same brush as those evil exceptions is just insulting and ignorant. 

The report says rife and that it is institutionalised. With 800 or so officers suspended and probably more under investigation is that just the tip of the iceberg, let’s not forget one of the criticisms of the Met over many years was that never formally acknowledged or investigated complaints about officers accused of sexual or racist misconduct against male officers, they dismiss complaints and close ranks, that 800 or so could easily be 8000 or more if the truth be known, like it says it is rife. So why would you throw more money at something that is institutionally rotten, wouldn’t the most rational thing be that they should have to clean their act up instead of being given more money to be put in the pockets of the wrong type of officers. And yes I feel sorry for the officers who under difficult circumstances due to some of their colleagues conduct are still trying to do their jobs as professionally as possible. Unfortunately there is a lack of trust and respect in our police officers nationally, they have shown to many times that they seem to think they are above the law, they are meant to look after the public not harm the public. 

[Hafnia]

7 hours ago, London Blue said:

Firstly Haff, yes officers make mistakes of course, we are humans put into difficult positions where we have to make split second decisions.

With regard to the 1000 officers suspended or on restricted duties, I don't know where you got that number from and I would be interested to know. Suspended and on restricted duties is a practice used on officers while an investigation is carried out. As I am sure you know, they have to go through due process and an allegation does not mean they are guilty, after all innocent until proven guilty also applies to Police Officers!! 

The great thing now is that we have body warn cameras so it's much easier and faster to resolve complaints. Infact the number of complaints against officers came down once cameras were introduced.

Thats not to say there are not bad officers who deserve to be sacked, sadly they are, and frankly the sooner they are out of the force the better. I fully accept the Baroness Casey report and am ashamed that some officers act that way. The commissioner is determined to change the culture in the MET and the vast majority of officers, myself included are committed to helping him do that, but it will take time.

I am sure that the laws we police are enforced pretty consistently, you have to remember that we the Police do not make charging decisions, that is the job of the Crown Prosecution Service. The man on the Cenotaph was arrested for violent disorder as he jumped on a car and threw a bin at another vehicle, the CPS made the decision to charge him and the court convicted him. He was not just waving a flag he was being violent, a big difference and remember our actions have to be proportionate. 

With regard to the video, I would first remind Mr Atherton that the protestors are British people too, although this does not give them the right to attack people. The video is confusing and it's difficult to judge exactly what is happening. The officers' actions are being looked at, their video footage will be reviewed and they will be spoken to find out their decision making process. All officers in command have decision logs to record why they did what they did, or did not do what they didn't do. Hopefully this will provide clarity and learning so officers make better decisions next time.

The so called "Patriots and veterans" who tried to get to the Cenotaph on Saturday were breaking the law because an exclusion zone was put in place to protect a lawful ceremony taking place by the Western Front Association at the Cenotaph. I am pretty sure that actual veterans could have applied to them to take part. Instead, they tried to push their way through to the Cenotaph and attacked Police Officers who stopped them. They also shouted things like "You're not British anymore" at Police, charming.....

If they had just been waving flags and climbing on monuments not in the exclusion zone then, as we have established, they would not of been committing offenses, and we would have no grounds to take action. Lawful and proportionate remember.  

They were violent, Police feared they would go on to cause more violence or disorder and they were arrested. Like I said there were legal experts advising Police in real time as to what offences had been committed and what constituted a crime. 

Lastly Haff the Police are a disciplined service and I like all other officers follow orders, but I am responsible for the actions I take. Nobody can order a Police Officer to arrest someone, unless they are wanted, each arrest has to be based on the genuine held belief that a crime has been committed and the person has committed it. I have a duty to call out bad behaviour and I have, several times, and will continue to do so. I do not and will not turn a blind eye as you suggest.

I suggest Haff you become a special constable, then you could see for yourself how the Police work, you could call out bad behaviour and maybe you could help bring down crime in your area.  So Haff what are you waiting for I'll send you the link to apply if you like?

As I’ve already said blue, I’m not underestimating the work you do. My best mate left for Hendon in 98 and I spent many a weekend down in Notting Hill, Hanger Lane, Gainsborough, Islington with him and his work across various stations, Drank with his mates, his bosses.  It doesn’t make me a special - but Im certainly not ignorant as to the challenges of the job.

London has got completely out of control. You can tell me till you are blue in the face that the policing isn’t 2 tier and I’m not having it. Sadiq Khan should not do another day in office.
 

you wonder where the gammons are coming from? it’s the infuriation that the right wing propaganda fuels. Yes, just like there is propaganda on the other side that shows law abiding people supposedly acting like thugs. 
 

its a powder keg situation now and no doubt you will all be told all eyes are watching.  By the way, who was the woman arrested for praying silently, bizarre application of the law. 

https://news.sky.com/story/amp/more-than-1-000-police-officers-suspended-or-on-restricted-duties-met-reveals-12964644

 

[Matt]

6 hours ago, Palfy said:

The report says rife and that it is institutionalised. With 800 or so officers suspended and probably more under investigation is that just the tip of the iceberg, let’s not forget one of the criticisms of the Met over many years was that never formally acknowledged or investigated complaints about officers accused of sexual or racist misconduct against male officers, they dismiss complaints and close ranks, that 800 or so could easily be 8000 or more if the truth be known, like it says it is rife. So why would you throw more money at something that is institutionally rotten, wouldn’t the most rational thing be that they should have to clean their act up instead of being given more money to be put in the pockets of the wrong type of officers. And yes I feel sorry for the officers who under difficult circumstances due to some of their colleagues conduct are still trying to do their jobs as professionally as possible. Unfortunately there is a lack of trust and respect in our police officers nationally, they have shown to many times that they seem to think they are above the law, they are meant to look after the public not harm the public. 

800 of 50000 is 1.6%, its hardly rife. What that is language being used to make a problem bigger than it is because it's in the spotlight and opinion is that something drastic needs to be done. 

I understand that public opinion is that its rife. But the public also complains whilst voting in the Torys over and over which complaining services are getting worse, so I don't listen to it much. I prefer to look things up and a 1.6% is still too high, but it's not rife. 

[Hafnia]

1 hour ago, Matt said:

800 of 50000 is 1.6%, its hardly rife. What that is language being used to make a problem bigger than it is because it's in the spotlight and opinion is that something drastic needs to be done. 

I understand that public opinion is that its rife. But the public also complains whilst voting in the Torys over and over which complaining services are getting worse, so I don't listen to it much. I prefer to look things up and a 1.6% is still too high, but it's not rife. 

You joking?!  1061 either suspended or on limited duties out of 34000 is 3.1%……. That is absolutely shambolic!!!  This will be the tip of the iceberg. 
 

I’ve worked in HR  for the past 15 years…. They are appalling numbers and clearly point to a bad culture which will have been enabled by those in positions of seniority. There will be far far more to come from this. 
 

my mate left the met and is one of the most liberal, chilled decent people you could wish to meet. His view was that for a person that abhorred racism, he found himself having to have words with himself as to how his thoughts were changing.  Both by exposure from hatred towards the police, how fellow colleagues spoke and treated people.

he changed as a person. Desensitised would be the word. 

 

[Matt]

31 minutes ago, Hafnia said:

You joking?!  1061 either suspended or on limited duties out of 34000 is 3.1%……. That is absolutely shambolic!!!  This will be the tip of the iceberg. 
 

I’ve worked in HR  for the past 15 years…. They are appalling numbers and clearly point to a bad culture which will have been enabled by those in positions of seniority. There will be far far more to come from this. 
 

my mate left the met and is one of the most liberal, chilled decent people you could wish to meet. His view was that for a person that abhorred racism, he found himself having to have words with himself as to how his thoughts were changing.  Both by exposure from hatred towards the police, how fellow colleagues spoke and treated people.

he changed as a person. Desensitised would be the word. 

 

I took my stats direct from the mets page, but 1 or 3%, that's not rife, it's not commonplace. Its still too high and not acceptable, but painting 50000 people working for the met for the actions of 1-3% is just ridiculous.

[Palfy]

3 hours ago, Matt said:

800 of 50000 is 1.6%, its hardly rife. What that is language being used to make a problem bigger than it is because it's in the spotlight and opinion is that something drastic needs to be done. 

I understand that public opinion is that its rife. But the public also complains whilst voting in the Torys over and over which complaining services are getting worse, so I don't listen to it much. I prefer to look things up and a 1.6% is still too high, but it's not rife. 

That’s the terminology used in the report by Baroness Casey, I also understand that Met are going to reopen thousands of cases of sexual and racial complainants over the course of time, that were not previously disclosed or dealt with properly. Understandably it’s not good for them or officers like London Blue who are trying to make a difference, yet it has to be good for the public and in the long run good for the Met. 

[Hafnia]

2 hours ago, Matt said:

I took my stats direct from the mets page, but 1 or 3%, that's not rife, it's not commonplace. Its still too high and not acceptable, but painting 50000 people working for the met for the actions of 1-3% is just ridiculous.

Trust me…. 1% is bad, very bad. 3% is diabolical.   
 

its the result of cascading behaviours 

[Matt]

5 minutes ago, Hafnia said:

Trust me…. 1% is bad, very bad. 3% is diabolical.   
 

its the result of cascading behaviours 

I said it's not good enough, but it's still the vast minority.

[Matt]

19 minutes ago, Palfy said:

That’s the terminology used in the report by Baroness Casey, I also understand that Met are going to reopen thousands of cases of sexual and racial complainants over the course of time, that were not previously disclosed or dealt with properly. Understandably it’s not good for them or officers like London Blue who are trying to make a difference, yet it has to be good for the public and in the long run good for the Met. 

Yeah, and her language choice is also inaccurate. 

[Hafnia]

13 minutes ago, Matt said:

I said it's not good enough, but it's still the vast minority.

 

let me put it into context, a heavy commercial absence month is 6% of the total working capacity lost to sickness….

we are talking 3% of an expected working capacity being impacted because the employees are under investigation.  The cost to HR alone in dealing with those cases will run into millions of pounds. 
 

if you took a toxic hairy arsed archaic factory environment with rife bullying, incompetence, misconduct - it wouldn’t be near 0.5% of the workforce that would be suspended or under investigation.  The met is broken 
 

yes it’s the minority… surely you wouldn’t expect it to be the majority 

[Matt]

15 minutes ago, Hafnia said:

 

let me put it into context, a heavy commercial absence month is 6% of the total working capacity lost to sickness….

we are talking 3% of an expected working capacity being impacted because the employees are under investigation.  The cost to HR alone in dealing with those cases will run into millions of pounds. 
 

if you took a toxic hairy arsed archaic factory environment with rife bullying, incompetence, misconduct - it wouldn’t be near 0.5% of the workforce that would be suspended or under investigation.  The met is broken 
 

yes it’s the minority… surely you wouldn’t expect it to be the majority 

Well when people keep saying rife, that would be the vast majority. But it isn't, so it's not. That's all Im getting at, that and don't tar 10s of 1000s of hard working people with the same brush as that tiny relative minority. 

[Hafnia]

13 minutes ago, Matt said:

Well when people keep saying rife, that would be the vast majority. But it isn't, so it's not. That's all Im getting at, that and don't tar 10s of 1000s of hard working people with the same brush as that tiny relative minority. 

 

When Covid was at its most rife - 4% of the population had it.  People didn’t act as though “oh it’s ok, I won’t wear a mask or take precautions”.  
 

As I have said repeatedly, I’m not judging good police officers, I’m highlighting that there is an evident issue of a toxic culture.  You are trying to portray that the numbers don’t indicate a big issue…. Im telling you categorically that it’s a huge issue. These numbers are bad. 

[Matt]

13 minutes ago, Hafnia said:

 

When Covid was at its most rife - 4% of the population had it.  People didn’t act as though “oh it’s ok, I won’t wear a mask or take precautions”.  
 

As I have said repeatedly, I’m not judging good police officers, I’m highlighting that there is an evident issue of a toxic culture.  You are trying to portray that the numbers don’t indicate a big issue…. Im telling you categorically that it’s a huge issue. These numbers are bad. 

I give up. Just because people don't understand the words they're using doesn't meant they're correct. 

Anyway, I'll leave it alone. That's not what I'm saying but no point trying to continue explaining.

[Matt]