January Plans

[johnh]

18 minutes ago, Bailey said:

Target man would be someone whom the ball forward goes through, whether it be aerially or on the ground. A target man isnt an out and out goal scorer, they are their to win balls played forward to them and bring others into the game.

CF and Striker are the same thing for me. CF probably has a different meaning for the older generation but a target man would be a type of striker.

Im not saying he is, I am just saying he is better than DCL. Tosun is a slightly below average PL striker whereas DCL is a well below average PL striker.

There wasnt much else he could do with the chance. The ball was pulled back by Baines but it was quite a slow pull back and all Tosun could do was try and guide it at goal as he was fighting against the defender. It was a chance but it would have taken something special to score from that position.

Well if it was me I would have flicked it up with my right foot and hit it on the volley with my left foot into the top corner.

[Finn balor]

With strikers hard to find I think a lot of clubs will be looking at ours. As a selling club you will get better prices in January so would you sell Tosun and niasse? I would. Even if that means just having Charley and DCL. I’d use Theo as a makeshift striker 

[markjazzbassist]

7 minutes ago, Finn balor said:

With strikers hard to find I think a lot of clubs will be looking at ours. As a selling club you will get better prices in January so would you sell Tosun and niasse? I would. Even if that means just having Charley and DCL. I’d use Theo as a makeshift striker 

Yes.  Play DCL every match let him learn and grow.

[Bailey]

2 hours ago, Finn balor said:

With strikers hard to find I think a lot of clubs will be looking at ours. As a selling club you will get better prices in January so would you sell Tosun and niasse? I would. Even if that means just having Charley and DCL. I’d use Theo as a makeshift striker 

We need 3 strikers and Im not sure Richarlison wants to play up top. Relying on DCL for the reason of the season is not an option. 

If it was me, of the current crop and I could keep Richie sweet, I would switch between him and Tosun depending on opponent and use Niasse and DCL from the bench. 

[Shukes]

10 hours ago, Finn balor said:

With strikers hard to find I think a lot of clubs will be looking at ours. As a selling club you will get better prices in January so would you sell Tosun and niasse? I would. Even if that means just having Charley and DCL. I’d use Theo as a makeshift striker 

I would do the same.

As we saw Saturday, DCL had a decent half and we had many attacks, second half we felt on the ropes and our attacking play fizzled out.

As Bailey has pointed out, Tosun had more of the ball and more opportunity to do something with it. But watching it was blatantly obvious he isn’t at the level for this league sadly. 

Out of the two, DCL gets an assist and has an effort that he made himself saved smartly, though he should be doing better.

Tosun did nothing.

DCL is at the start of his career.

Tosun is in his prime.

Ideally though, I would get someone in.

[aaron]

Problems with short term shite signings -

Hard to move on so we are stuck with them (Niasse).

Want bumper pay as this maybe their last contract

Takes up funds from transfer fee's and wages

Uses up FFP spending power.

They are shite and may score 3 goals for us but it just isn'tt worth it.

 

Why do people want short term target man signings? If you want football like that then I suggest getting a time machine and going back and trying to watch Koeman and Bisto snorter football. 100% not the type of football I want to see. DCL gets picked because he has a stupid amount of pace and his link up play is fairly decent.

[Bailey]

3 hours ago, aaron said:

Problems with short term shite signings -

Hard to move on so we are stuck with them (Niasse).

Want bumper pay as this maybe their last contract

Takes up funds from transfer fee's and wages

Uses up FFP spending power.

They are shite and may score 3 goals for us but it just isn'ttt worth it.

 

Why do people want short term target man signings? If you want football like that then I suggest getting a time machine and going back and trying to watch Koeman and Bisto snorter football. 100% not the type of football I want to see. DCL gets picked because he has a stupid amount of pace and his link up play is fairly decent.

Great points!

Must admit I was think more along the loan route or cheap wages/fee. 

You are right though, use the player for 6 months but pay him for 3 years!

[Matt]

22 hours ago, Bailey said:

Target man would be someone whom the ball forward goes through, whether it be aerially or on the ground. A target man isnt an out and out goal scorer, they are their to win balls played forward to them and bring others into the game.

CF and Striker are the same thing for me. CF probably has a different meaning for the older generation but a target man would be a type of striker.

Your target man definition is DCL in a nutshell. 

CF for me is a jack of all trades (Niasse), a striker is someone who does nothing more than put the ball in the net (Tosun)

all three definions have the time and place, it’s up to the manager to know when to use them. 

[Bailey]

10 minutes ago, Matt said:

Your target man definition is DCL in a nutshell. 

CF for me is a jack of all trades (Niasse), a striker is someone who does nothing more than put the ball in the net (Tosun)

all three definions have the time and place, it’s up to the manager to know when to use them. 

Apart from the bring others into the game bit. I dont want a target man though, but if we are going to, Id want one that is better than DCL (without meaning to sound disrespectful to him). 

Btw I have never seen Niasse described as a jack of all trades

Im not sure what I would describe Tosun as. I might create a new category.... definitionless striker.

[Matt]

Just now, Bailey said:

Apart from the bring others into the game bit. I dont want a target man though, but if we are going to, Id want one that is better than DCL (without meaning to sound disrespectful to him). 

Btw I have never seen Niasse described as a jack of all trades

Im not sure what I would describe Tosun as. I might create a new category.... definitionless striker.

DCL hasn’t had a run of games to get into the flow, he’s always thrown in at the end to jump for the big belt up the field. 

Niasse is the definition of a jack of all trades. He excels at nothing but does everything averagely (except scoring important goals!); closes down, holds up play, runs channels. 

Tosuns finishing is excellent but he’s being asked to play on a way that doesn’t suit him so looks worse than he is. If only our managers actually played players to their strengths instead of asking them to do stuff they’re not comfortable with or in positions they’re not right for...

[Bailey]

37 minutes ago, Matt said:

DCL hasn’t had a run of games to get into the flow, he’s always thrown in at the end to jump for the big belt up the field. 

Niasse is the definition of a jack of all trades. He excels at nothing but does everything averagely (except scoring important goals!); closes down, holds up play, runs channels. 

Tosuns finishing is excellent but he’s being asked to play on a way that doesn’t suit him so looks worse than he is. If only our managers actually played players to their strengths instead of asking them to do stuff they’re not comfortable with or in positions they’re not right for...

DCL started 5 games in a row earlier in the season and he has also now started 5 of the last 6 games.

Last season he started 9 games in a row and another 5 games in a row earlier in the season, starting 20 games in total.

If this was season 1, I would understand it, but he has played a lot of games now and he desperately needs to kick on. We are at the stage now where he either has to start being productive or he needs to drop a level and find his feet.

Now if you had said master of none I would have agreed! In fairness Niasse is a pure poacher, albeit with better work rate than you normally expect.

There arent many strikers that play just because they can finish. Strikers have to do much more than that.

[nogs]

19 hours ago, Bailey said:

 

If it was me, of the current crop and I could keep Richie sweet, I would switch between him and Tosun depending on opponent and use Niasse and DCL from the bench. 

I don't get your logic on Tosun, you said in your own analysis he's below Prem average, why stand for that? I'd even suggest Niasse is a more natural goalscorer. 

I think we can a agree we need a striker. I'd be preparing a £60m bid for Callum Wilson in the summer and bring in an older, experienced forward in the meantime on an 18 month deal. Sell Niasse and Tosun to whichever bottom 6 club (or foreign side) coughs up the most cash and let DCL keep learning his trade, he is still only 21.

[Wiggytop]

 

21 minutes ago, nogs said:

I don't get your logic on Tosun, you said in your own analysis he's below Prem average, why stand for that? I'd even suggest Niasse is a more natural goalscorer. 

I think we can a agree we need a striker. I'd be preparing a £60m bid for Callum Wilson in the summer and bring in an older, experienced forward in the meantime on an 18 month deal. Sell Niasse and Tosun to whichever bottom 6 club (or foreign side) coughs up the most cash and let DCL keep learning his trade, he is still only 21.

I like Wilson also, and think we should keep DCL and let him learn alongside a better finisher than we have at present, I'm. not sure Wilson is worth £60m though, how much do you think we'd get for Niasse and Tosun? I'd be happy to pay £10m for Wilson over what we would get for our two.

[Bailey]

21 minutes ago, nogs said:

I don't get your logic on Tosun, you said in your own analysis he's below Prem average, why stand for that? I'd even suggest Niasse is a more natural goalscorer. 

I think we can a agree we need a striker. I'd be preparing a £60m bid for Callum Wilson in the summer and bring in an older, experienced forward in the meantime on an 18 month deal. Sell Niasse and Tosun to whichever bottom 6 club (or foreign side) coughs up the most cash and let DCL keep learning his trade, he is still only 21.

It was on the basis of what we have here at the moment and what will help us. Tosun is smarter, more experienced and whilst he lacks legs, we need to win the games we are dominating and he just has more guile. I would agree that Niasse is a more natural goal scorer but you just cant play off him reliably. Thats why I would keep him on bench because he is the perfect player to chuck on and cause havoc.

Im just at the stage where DCL has to start making strides forward and I dont see it. He has played a lot of games now, he isnt fresh out of the academy and whilst I do agree he needs to learn his trade for longer before he is written off, I dont think the right place for us is in our first team.

Fwiw there is no way I would spend that much on Wilson. If he was 22-23 with no previous injury problems then maybe but he isnt.

 

[markjazzbassist]

i like wilson a lot but 35m is the most i would pay, 60m is outrageous.  he's pretty much at his ceiling as well, i see him at 15 or so goals a year if he plays most of the year.  he's injured a lot.

[Finn balor]

I think Wilson will end up at Chelsea. He’s decent but nothing more 

[Matt]

12 hours ago, Bailey said:

DCL started 5 games in a row earlier in the season and he has also now started 5 of the last 6 games.

Last season he started 9 games in a row and another 5 games in a row earlier in the season, starting 20 games in total.

If this was season 1, I would understand it, but he has played a lot of games now and he desperately needs to kick on. We are at the stage now where he either has to start being productive or he needs to drop a level and find his feet.

Now if you had said master of none I would have agreed! In fairness Niasse is a pure poacher, albeit with better work rate than you normally expect.

There arent many strikers that play just because they can finish. Strikers have to do much more than that.

He’s also a kid trying to develop. Two runs of 5 games (I’m ignoring last season because where he was played and who was in charge) is not enough to develop understandings, especially when there’s change behind the front man. 

Id still give him until the end of the season, through thick and thin, and then see if we need to splash the cash, rather than bring in Llorente or someone else as an expensive short term fix. 

I also don’t agree that strikers need to do more. They have to strike the ball into the net. A forward has to do more. 

[nogs]

On the Wilson price, he's just coming up to 27, English, scoring goals, under contract and Chelsea are in for him. If we want a forward who you can be confident would improve us, that's what it's going to cost. Otherwise, back to 21 year old prospects and crossing our fingers. 

[Bailey]

10 hours ago, Matt said:

He’s also a kid trying to develop. Two runs of 5 games (I’m ignoring last season because where he was played and who was in charge) is not enough to develop understandings, especially when there’s change behind the front man. 

Id still give him until the end of the season, through thick and thin, and then see if we need to splash the cash, rather than bring in Llorente or someone else as an expensive short term fix. 

I also don’t agree that strikers need to do more. They have to strike the ball into the net. A forward has to do more. 

I get what you mean about last season, however I don't agree that you can just write it off. If anything I would have expected last years exploits to have made him a better player this season because he had a hard job. He has a lot more talent around him now and he still doesn't perform any better. We have clearly had changes in the squad, with Bernard and Richarlison but Walcott and Siggy were here last season and so was Gueye, Davies etc. Its not a completely different team.

However you want to term them, whoever plays up front in this league needs to do more than score goals. I can't even think of a single poacher or "striker" in the league that plays regularly. Hernandez is probably the closest thing.

I don't disagree that he needs more time to develop, but I haven't seen any progression between this season and last season and therefore I think we need to consider a different approach away from the first team.

[Aidan]

I can't see DCL being at Everton long term I have no doubt he will develop in to a good PL player but not one pushing for European football.

We need a striker. If we can get one in January great, if not I'm happy to hold off until the summer.

[Matt]

1 hour ago, Bailey said:

I get what you mean about last season, however I don't agree that you can just write it off. If anything I would have expected last years exploits to have made him a better player this season because he had a hard job. He has a lot more talent around him now and he still doesn't perform any better. We have clearly had changes in the squad, with Bernard and Richarlison but Walcott and Siggy were here last season and so was Gueye, Davies etc. Its not a completely different team.

However you want to term them, whoever plays up front in this league needs to do more than score goals. I can't even think of a single poacher or "striker" in the league that plays regularly. Hernandez is probably the closest thing.

I don't disagree that he needs more time to develop, but I haven't seen any progression between this season and last season and therefore I think we need to consider a different approach away from the first team.

The tactical side and a whole change in philosophy is enough to give most a second chance. Not to mention clearing out the stench of the last manager and ineptitude of Koeman. 

[Bailey]

1 hour ago, Matt said:

The tactical side and a whole change in philosophy is enough to give most a second chance. Not to mention clearing out the stench of the last manager and ineptitude of Koeman. 

He is currently having that chance now and isnt doing a great deal with it. Yes the whole side still isnt settled tactically and players have been inconsistent. My problem is that DCL hasnt pulled up a daffodil let alone a tree this season. 

I fully agree that we need to give lads time and if a loan wasnt to be considered then I still think he can do a good job coming off the bench, I dont think he does enough to warrant starting as the main forward in a PL side with ambitions of doing more than surviving. 

I would actually love to see him go on loan to a Championship club for the rest of the season. Go to a team like Leeds, score a bucket full of goals and then bring that back to Everton in the pre-season.

[Matt]

1 minute ago, Bailey said:

He is currently having that chance now and isnt doing a great deal with it. Yes the whole side still isnt settled tactically and players have been inconsistent. My problem is that DCL hasnt pulled up a daffodil let alone a tree this season. 

I fully agree that we need to give lads time and if a loan wasnt to be considered then I still think he can do a good job coming off the bench, I dont think he does enough to warrant starting as the main forward in a PL side with ambitions of doing more than surviving. 

I would actually love to see him go on loan to a Championship club for the rest of the season. Go to a team like Leeds, score a bucket full of goals and then bring that back to Everton in the pre-season.

Why not actually accept this season for what it is; damage repair and building for next?

[Bailey]

13 minutes ago, Matt said:

Why not actually accept this season for what it is; damage repair and building for next?

Because you might be happy to write the season off but lots of people wont. If we keep failing to score goals and pick up points pressure will mount around the club and that isnt going to help DCL or any of the other young lads. 

Its even getting to the stage where I think Davies might even benefit from a spell away from the club - cue an I told you so from @Markjazzbassist

[Matt]

12 minutes ago, Bailey said:

Because you might be happy to write the season off but lots of people wont. If we keep failing to score goals and pick up points pressure will mount around the club and that isnt going to help DCL or any of the other young lads. 

Its even getting to the stage where I think Davies might even benefit from a spell away from the club - cue an I told you so from @Markjazzbassist

This is a project. Projects take time and anyone having to suffer change short term can just suffer it if it means a better long term solution. The fans need to deal with that else accept the last 3 years as the norm. As for the players, they know how the game works. 

[markjazzbassist]

2 hours ago, Bailey said:

Because you might be happy to write the season off but lots of people wont. If we keep failing to score goals and pick up points pressure will mount around the club and that isnt going to help DCL or any of the other young lads. 

Its even getting to the stage where I think Davies might even benefit from a spell away from the club - cue an I told you so from @Markjazzbassist

im glad youre coming around on him 

[Finn balor]

Buy young on cheaper wages. Maybe we would accept offers for Gana me maybe sigi if we get the money back we paid? 

[nogs]

2 hours ago, Finn balor said:

Buy young on cheaper wages. Maybe we would accept offers for Gana me maybe sigi if we get the money back we paid? 

I really hope that is the strategy and is what I expected under Brands. We need a couple more big money signings down the spine of the team, CF most importantly, and then a real leader in CM or at CB (both ideally). Everywhere else, invest in the future. That's why I feel no excitement whatsoever being linked to yet more high cost wingers and AMs we don't need. 

[aaron]

10 hours ago, Matt said:

Why not actually accept this season for what it is; damage repair and building for next?

Terrible shout that.

[Matt]

44 minutes ago, aaron said:

Terrible shout that.

Why? What is there to accomplish this season in the league? FA Cup aside, there's nothing to play for, so why not prepare for next season?