Cornish Steve Posted May 15 Report Share Posted May 15 Does anyone remember Arteta's first season with Arsenal? He began by presiding over Arsenal's worst start in 46 years: 13 points from 12 games and 15th in the league table. Here's his run of 10 games leading up to the holiday period in his first full season as manager (2020): Man City 1-0 Arsenal LOST Arsenal 0-1 Leicester LOST Man Utd 0-1 Arsenal WON Arsenal 0-3 Aston Villa LOST Leeds 0-0 Arsenal DRAW Arsenal 1-2 Wolves LOST Spurs 2-0 Arsenal LOST Arsenal 0-1 Burnley LOST Arsenal 0-0 Southampton DRAW Everton 2-1 Arsenal LOST But the owners had patience. They stuck with him, and now look where they are. Matt 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Palfy Posted May 15 Report Share Posted May 15 4 hours ago, dunlopp9987 said: You and Haf keep going on about the last 10 games as if that's the only positive spot this year. Selective memory problems blocking out the run from end of September-end of December where we went 10-2-3? I don’t keep going on about the last 10 games as the only positives, that post was the first time I mentioned the last 10 in a direct response to Steve who referenced the last 10 game’s in his post to me. I said a manager is judged by the now and not 6, 12, 18 months down the line yes if you have good spells you are applauded which is rightly so, but if you have a bad run of games particularly no wins in 14 99,9% of the time you are sacked, and I believe that if we had a working board and an owner that hadn’t gone AWOL he would have been sacked long before it got to 14, just like like in nearly every case of manager been sacked by their club since the start of the PL. If you don’t agree with me then show me the evidence that of all the managers to be sacked in the PL how many had a worse run than his 14 before being sacked and how many survived after the same run he went on. But don’t accuse me of going about the last 10 games or selective memory problems, just to try and make yourself look clever in your search for likes from the select few you keep sucking up to, because it’s embarrassing to see every time you do it, it really is embarrassing Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Palfy Posted May 15 Report Share Posted May 15 2 hours ago, Cornish Steve said: Does anyone remember Arteta's first season with Arsenal? He began by presiding over Arsenal's worst start in 46 years: 13 points from 12 games and 15th in the league table. Here's his run of 10 games leading up to the holiday period in his first full season as manager (2020): Man City 1-0 Arsenal LOST Arsenal 0-1 Leicester LOST Man Utd 0-1 Arsenal WON Arsenal 0-3 Aston Villa LOST Leeds 0-0 Arsenal DRAW Arsenal 1-2 Wolves LOST Spurs 2-0 Arsenal LOST Arsenal 0-1 Burnley LOST Arsenal 0-0 Southampton DRAW Everton 2-1 Arsenal LOST But the owners had patience. They stuck with him, and now look where they are. Not worse than Dyche’s bad run, and you’ve conveniently missed out the cup and Europa games they won plus the Fulham game they won, do his worst 14 games in a row too make a fairer comparison Steve. Hafnia 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt Posted May 15 Report Share Posted May 15 14 minutes ago, Palfy said: I don’t keep going on about the last 10 games as the only positives, that post was the first time I mentioned the last 10 in a direct response to Steve who referenced the last 10 game’s in his post to me. I said a manager is judged by the now and not 6, 12, 18 months down the line yes if you have good spells you are applauded which is rightly so, but if you have a bad run of games particularly no wins in 14 99,9% of the time you are sacked, and I believe that if we had a working board and an owner that hadn’t gone AWOL he would have been sacked long before it got to 14, just like like in nearly every case of manager been sacked by their club since the start of the PL. If you don’t agree with me then show me the evidence that of all the managers to be sacked in the PL how many had a worse run than his 14 before being sacked and how many survived after the same run he went on. But don’t accuse me of going about the last 10 games or selective memory problems, just to try and make yourself look clever in your search for likes from the select few you keep sucking up to, because it’s embarrassing to see every time you do it, it really is embarrassing But that's what you're doing mate. We keep hearing about the poor run, although it's been exaggerated that many times I'm not 100% of he true figure anymore, and never about the really positive runs that started and ended the season. Honestly it feels like this: MikeO 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt Posted May 15 Report Share Posted May 15 1 minute ago, Palfy said: Not worse than Dyche’s bad run, and you’ve conveniently missed out the cup and Europa games they won plus the Fulham game they won, do his worst 14 games in a row too make a fairer comparison Steve. No, he's compared like with like. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt Posted May 15 Report Share Posted May 15 Found a decent enough website for me to maybe do some numbers if work allows. https://footystats.org/clubs/everton-fc-144 For those who want to have a look too. Interesting reading really, I probably didn't panic that much about the 13 game winless run because we drew 7 of them and compared to the past 2 seasons... Still not good enough but it was flanked by a lot of green either side of it. Will try and dabble later but there's much better Excel analysts than me Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Palfy Posted May 15 Report Share Posted May 15 33 minutes ago, Matt said: But that's what you're doing mate. We keep hearing about the poor run, although it's been exaggerated that many times I'm not 100% of he true figure anymore, and never about the really positive runs that started and ended the season. Honestly it feels like this: We are talking about what gets managers sacked mate and you will find it to find many who haven’t been sacked for the run he went on, dumlopp accused me of going on about the last 10 games which I don’t because I don’t believe he should have still been here for the last 10 games, and the only times I’ve said anything about the last 7 games is that I believe the credit for them results should go to the players more than him. And the run was 14 games without a win, which imo he should have been sacked before it even got that far. Apologies Matt the run was 13 games without a win in the league. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RuffRob Posted May 15 Report Share Posted May 15 Dyche is going to be here next season, so we are all going to get to see if the now infamous '14 games' was an unlucky blip or not. for me last season is going to have an asterics next to it anyhow as one that was particularly difficult and unusual one to manage. nobody really know how certain off feild situations effected both winning streaks or not winning streaks. So as he's going to remain I will be getting fully behind him, what I would like to see next season is Goodison get the send off it deserves. We are currently on 5 home wins in a row so great foundation to go in to next season and make Goodion that horrible ground for the away teams to visit for one final year. He will currently have the majority of the Goodison faithful behind him, so up to Dyche to make the most of the goodwill he'll be getting to in to next season. StevO 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Palfy Posted May 15 Report Share Posted May 15 15 minutes ago, Matt said: No, he's compared like with like. Our worst run was over 13 games so he needs to compare Arsenal’s poorest run over 13 games and not 10 because it fits more with his agenda, Arsenal did have a poor run of results over 13 games but they did manage to win 4 and draw 2, and this is League games, if we just cherry picked our last 4 games we could say that we should be tied third with Palace, and that is an excellent position position even better than the last 10 mentioned by Steve which is still very good, and I don’t discredit that in any way I’ve supported this club for 57 years and I enjoy the good times more than the bad times, but I can’t budge from the opinion that he should have been sacked when we were in the midst of that terrible run. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Palfy Posted May 15 Report Share Posted May 15 20 minutes ago, RuffRob said: Dyche is going to be here next season, so we are all going to get to see if the now infamous '14 games' was an unlucky blip or not. for me last season is going to have an asterics next to it anyhow as one that was particularly difficult and unusual one to manage. nobody really know how certain off feild situations effected both winning streaks or not winning streaks. So as he's going to remain I will be getting fully behind him, what I would like to see next season is Goodison get the send off it deserves. We are currently on 5 home wins in a row so great foundation to go in to next season and make Goodion that horrible ground for the away teams to visit for one final year. He will currently have the majority of the Goodison faithful behind him, so up to Dyche to make the most of the goodwill he'll be getting to in to next season. There’s a lot of twists and turns a head before next season starts, we could secure new owners who decide Dyche doesn’t fit into their plans. If we have to sell our better players but can’t reinvest in the team because the money will be spent on daily running costs and Stadium payments, then I feel for Dyche if he is still the manager he or anyone else will be on a hiding to nothing, a team next season without a Pickford a Branthwaite and possibly a DCL is a very scary prospect. I still fear for our short term future and find it hard to imagine what the long term will look like if it all goes tits up in the short term. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wiggytop Posted May 15 Report Share Posted May 15 13 minutes ago, Palfy said: I can’t budge from the opinion that he should have been sacked when we were in the midst of that terrible run. Thankfully he wasn’t, if he had been sacked, we probably would be moaning about being relegated. Matt and StevO 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt Posted May 15 Report Share Posted May 15 3 minutes ago, Palfy said: There’s a lot of twists and turns a head before next season starts, we could secure new owners who decide Dyche doesn’t fit into their plans. If we have to sell our better players but can’t reinvest in the team because the money will be spent on daily running costs and Stadium payments, then I feel for Dyche if he is still the manager he or anyone else will be on a hiding to nothing, a team next season without a Pickford a Branthwaite and possibly a DCL is a very scary prospect. I still fear for our short term future and find it hard to imagine what the long term will look like if it all goes tits up in the short term. He already was and is Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt Posted May 15 Report Share Posted May 15 1 hour ago, Palfy said: We are talking about what gets managers sacked mate and you will find it to find many who haven’t been sacked for the run he went on, dumlopp accused me of going on about the last 10 games which I don’t because I don’t believe he should have still been here for the last 10 games, and the only times I’ve said anything about the last 7 games is that I believe the credit for them results should go to the players more than him. And the run was 14 games without a win, which imo he should have been sacked before it even got that far. Apologies Matt the run was 13 games without a win in the league. If it had been 13 games lost, I wouldn't be arguing anywhere near as much. But 7 draws should not be ignored if we want to focus on it so much. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Romey 1878 Posted May 15 Report Share Posted May 15 Aren't Luton currently on a run of one win in 16 or something like that? There is no talk of them getting rid of Edwards (and hasn't been all season) and nor should there be. Why? Because of the circumstances that you also have to take into account. I even said myself at the start of the season when they couldn't win that no matter what happens they should stick with him. I'm far from Dyche's biggest fan, there's lots of things I have issue with (but I can actually understand why he does some of the things he does, even if I don't like them), but I think I've been pretty consistent with my view of him all season long. There was no panic from me at the beginning of the season when results were not good, I backed him because the performances were there and we just couldn't score. Then we started picking up results and we looked on course to be comfortable. The PL had other ideas and threw a bomb into the middle of our season. The players, and manager for that matter, responded magnificently. Then we fell away in terms of results and that run really was horrific but, like earlier in the season, the performances weren't terrible and we should have had better results. The only time I had a wobble was the Chelsea result, I was worried at that point. But we put it right in the next game and ground out one of the biggest wins of our season after that and then have finished the season excellently. I can only speak for myself but I've not been up and down throughout the good and bad runs throughout the season and haven't gone to it's all rosy now after this run, because I've never thought everything was shit before it. Matt, MikeO, StevO and 1 other 3 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Goodison Glory Posted May 15 Report Share Posted May 15 I thought I already showed that there have been managers with similar or even worse winless records that Dyche - two were sacked, one wasn't, one probably won't be. Dyche wasn't. There was probably "just cause" to do so, and we can all have our opinions on that and none are right/wrong. History can't even tell us which path was the right one as the outcomes are not all the same. In the end he wasn't sacked (for whatever reason). And we stayed up. Hafnia and StevO 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeO Posted May 15 Report Share Posted May 15 2 hours ago, Palfy said: Not worse than Dyche’s bad run, and you’ve conveniently missed out the cup and Europa games they won plus the Fulham game they won, do his worst 14 games in a row too make a fairer comparison Steve. So have you If you include cup games our winless run was "only" ten Can understand you, anyone, wanting him sacked during that run...but surely you have to concede, in the light of subsequent matches, that not sacking him was the right choice? Matt and StevO 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hafnia Posted May 15 Author Report Share Posted May 15 7 hours ago, Goodison Glory said: Paul Jewell didn't win a single game all season for Derby County (in charge Nov to May)...worse still they didn't even sack him in the summer, then for some crazy reason thought he was the man to lead them back to the promised land. They were....wrong! Mick McCarthy won 2 in 25 for Sunderland ....including a run of 14 without a win....he was sacked!! Sheff Utd this year - Heckingbottom won 1 in 14...sacked. Chris Wilder then did a hold my beer moment and has gone 13 without a win..will prob be 14 by the weekend. Comparing ourselves to the 3 worst clubs in the history of the PL is prob not a good look....but thems the facts. Now you can argue this from both perspectives.....Dyche should have been sacked as his record was similar to the managers who presided over the shittest seasons in history. Conversely, you could say, Everton was right to have faith....they stuck by him and he delivered. My take is that yes, he was very lucky not to be sacked, but ultimately whoever the hell is making the decisions these days made the right call (whatever their motives were) Congratulations Goodison glory. you've managed to look at the posts without viewing the people making them and actually deciphering the point that dyches run of form - should and would have seen him sacked. This is the whole point of most of the posts being made by myself and Palfy. Take away the fact that we are Everton and not derby, Sunderland or sheff United and yeah the fact stands that dyche had the benefit of an extraordinary set of circumstances which stopped him getting the boot. This thread is beyond depressing, West Ham have let Moyes go because their fans and club realise that his ceiling isn't what they want. Good for them!!! Yeah they could implode and get relegated again in a few years - so what? They've been there before but they want a manager who can actually get a team to play football with the talented players that they have. meanwhile on toffeetalk "let's shout down those who say Dyche is lucky to be in a job" Palfy 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RuffRob Posted May 15 Report Share Posted May 15 36 minutes ago, Palfy said: There’s a lot of twists and turns a head before next season starts, we could secure new owners who decide Dyche doesn’t fit into their plans. If we have to sell our better players but can’t reinvest in the team because the money will be spent on daily running costs and Stadium payments, then I feel for Dyche if he is still the manager he or anyone else will be on a hiding to nothing, a team next season without a Pickford a Branthwaite and possibly a DCL is a very scary prospect. I still fear for our short term future and find it hard to imagine what the long term will look like if it all goes tits up in the short term. can't argue with that - scares me when talk of a near backbone potentially being sold. This year was as tough gig as a manager is going to get and next year might be as tough for different reasons. I don't see Dyche as the type who, throw is dummy out and walk away, see him as somebody who will deal with in and get on with the job. New owners or not, I don't see Dyche being swapped out by them. If any new owners have anything about them, they will try and keep the footballing part of the club ticking over for then first half of the season at least. Dyches teams are based on players working their nuts off being defensively strong and keeping games tight. To me that is the better foundation in your a mid to bottom half team. I definately don't see it as a time to try and get 'creative' or take some risks in the management department. Romey 1878, dunlopp9987 and Matt 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hafnia Posted May 15 Author Report Share Posted May 15 2 hours ago, Wiggytop said: Thankfully he wasn’t, if he had been sacked, we probably would be moaning about being relegated. Maybe we wouldn't dunlopp9987 and Matt 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post Formby Posted May 15 Popular Post Report Share Posted May 15 1 hour ago, Goodison Glory said: In the end he wasn't sacked (for whatever reason). And we stayed up. And that is all that really mattered. Irrespective of Dyche's abilities / lack of abilities, whoever made the decision to keep him on made the right call. Romey 1878, StevO, Matt and 2 others 5 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dunlopp9987 Posted May 15 Report Share Posted May 15 5 hours ago, Palfy said: I don’t keep going on about the last 10 games as the only positives, that post was the first time I mentioned the last 10 in a direct response to Steve who referenced the last 10 game’s in his post to me. I said a manager is judged by the now and not 6, 12, 18 months down the line yes if you have good spells you are applauded which is rightly so, but if you have a bad run of games particularly no wins in 14 99,9% of the time you are sacked, and I believe that if we had a working board and an owner that hadn’t gone AWOL he would have been sacked long before it got to 14, just like like in nearly every case of manager been sacked by their club since the start of the PL. If you don’t agree with me then show me the evidence that of all the managers to be sacked in the PL how many had a worse run than his 14 before being sacked and how many survived after the same run he went on. But don’t accuse me of going about the last 10 games or selective memory problems, just to try and make yourself look clever in your search for likes from the select few you keep sucking up to, because it’s embarrassing to see every time you do it, it really is embarrassing Fishing for likes? Have you noticed the only one liking your posts and vice versa is Haf? I'm glad you two found each other Matt, MikeO, Romey 1878 and 1 other 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RuffRob Posted May 15 Report Share Posted May 15 Something that will be interesting to watch next year is how West Ham fair without a steady Eddie David Moyes swaped out for a more modern or progressive coach. I would imagine a fair few of the Hammer fans appriciate Moyes and will be sorry to see him go, while others have been championing moving him out for something they think will be 'better' for a long time. We have witnessed a couple of false dawns, but generally a steady decline since Everton moved on from Moyes. Hammer fans need to be careful what they wish for. Having had relative success under Moyes over his 4 years, it will be interesting to see how many changes in manager they have over the next four years and what sort of sucess they have. Does our fan base mirror a little of that the Hammer want, when it comes down to Dyche? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Palfy Posted May 15 Report Share Posted May 15 2 hours ago, dunlopp9987 said: Fishing for likes? Have you noticed the only one liking your posts and vice versa is Haf? I'm glad you two found each other 100% posting for likes you always have and always will, wherever there’s a bandwagon to jump on you’re the first on it. Matt and StevO 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post Cornish Steve Posted May 15 Popular Post Report Share Posted May 15 4 hours ago, Hafnia said: Maybe we wouldn't If they had sacked him, maybe we'd be grousing about being relegated or maybe we wouldn't: We don't know. They didn't sack him, and we're definitely not grousing about being relegated: We do know. But let's move on. Dyche will most likely be our manager when the new season starts. I suggested that his goal this past season was to finish higher up the table than last season. What goals would you give him for next season? The same? Maybe we can put our differences about our manager aside and focus on what we expect him to achieve and how he should be measured. Sibdane, dunlopp9987, Wiggytop and 3 others 3 1 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dunlopp9987 Posted May 15 Report Share Posted May 15 1 hour ago, Palfy said: 100% posting for likes you always have and always will, wherever there’s a bandwagon to jump on you’re the first on it. Listen, have you ever been on a bandwagon?? So much fun. Drinks, music, friendship. Highly recommend, buddy Matt and StevO 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Palfy Posted May 15 Report Share Posted May 15 6 hours ago, MikeO said: So have you If you include cup games our winless run was "only" ten Can understand you, anyone, wanting him sacked during that run...but surely you have to concede, in the light of subsequent matches, that not sacking him was the right choice? I agree but if you applied the same logic to Arsenal 10 games starting from the first game Steve mentioned they lost 4 won 5 drew 1. In hindsight I wouldn’t argue that fact, what I’m trying convey is if the board hadn’t been an still is a complete farce he should have been sacked for that run and the decisions he made during that run, the fact that nobody was around to sack him he got away with it, you must agree that that isn’t how things pan out for managers, as you rightly said Mike you are judged on results, and if the results are as bad as that you don’t in normal circumstances make the end of the season. I watched nearly all the games in that run and some of team selections were baffling, the long ball was hurting us more than the teams we played, and his inability to change things mid game when it was blatantly obvious we needed to was alarming, these aren’t just my views, go back to the match day post and read for yourself what people were saying about our performances and his performances, I’m not saying anything new that others haven’t said about him I’m still of the same opinion about him as manager as I have pretty much been most of the time, yes you might find an odd few posts months ago when I got caught up in the euphoria of win and I let my emotions get the better of my judgement. But he’s not the type of manager I want to see at this club I haven’t checked but I’m sure you’ll do that but it feels like he’s got a worse record than Allardyce and I didn’t want him here, because he played a similar brand of football as Dyche. So there my opinions Mike and he will have to do a lot better next season for me to change them, and I’m not saying I can’t be changed but I very much doubt I will be. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Palfy Posted May 15 Report Share Posted May 15 5 minutes ago, dunlopp9987 said: Listen, have you ever been on a bandwagon?? So much fun. Drinks, music, friendship. Highly recommend, buddy Not the type you constantly jump on, so unfortunately I won’t be joining you I’d get more joy sticking needles in my eyes. Matt 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dunlopp9987 Posted May 15 Report Share Posted May 15 11 minutes ago, Palfy said: Not the type you constantly jump on, so unfortunately I won’t be joining you I’d get more joy sticking needles in my eyes. Oh yeah you absolutely would not enjoy the bandwagons I'm on. Feels like it'd be too much fun for you. A funeral march seems more your speed. Matt and StevO 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Palfy Posted May 15 Report Share Posted May 15 1 minute ago, dunlopp9987 said: Oh yeah you absolutely would not enjoy the bandwagons I'm on. Seems like it'd be too much fun for you. A funeral march seems more your speed. You’ll have to get your boy friend to come on here and confirm that for you because I’m certainly not going to take your word for it. dunlopp9987 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dunlopp9987 Posted May 15 Report Share Posted May 15 3 minutes ago, Palfy said: You’ll have to get your boy friend to come on here and confirm that for you because I’m certainly not going to take your word for it. Knew it was a matter of time before you resorted to mud-slinging Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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