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Has Martinez got it wrong?

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Moyes took us down to 17th after promising so much and spent many more years dining out on above average finishes.

 

I'll hold this season this far down to Roberto not knowing all the answers just yet. But he better learn and fast. He also better show a far more readily acceptance to change when his "philosophy" isn't reaping rewards.

 

I'm fuckin furious with him and for anyone who thinks I'm Mr "always right" - I never seen this with RM. He's made a complete balls up of this season and proved me wrong. Call me mad but we need a complete grenade launching in that dressing room. he has got to start tearing players apart.

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In fact yeah, all this Twitter bollocks with videos etc etc, get a grip. We dont want prefects walking round finch farm like under moyes but when we ain't performing I don't wanna see the afro/Belgian clique filming shite.

 

Get serious Roberto, too much shite going on.

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Where did I compare them?

I think that something we all miss is where Martinez is in his career. He is in the early days. He's 41 years of age. A very young manager.

Moyes was 39 when we appointed him. Martinez 40. How many years did it take Moyes to develop his playing style? How many players did he sign? How many mistakes were made?

We gave Moyes 11 years. After Moyes' 2nd full season in charge, where we finished 17th, Moyes said he learned a lot from that dreadful season about himself as a Manager, he said himself that he then altered his approach. Moyes was then 41 years of age.

See the similarities?

What ever we think, Martinez will get it right. Martinez is a clever man. A man who studies the game in depth.

The idea behind our play is dead right. Keep the ball. Make the opposition chase and tire. And attack with pace. Unfortunately the pace bit is missing just now!

There could be many many reasons why it isn't happening as it should just now. And we can debate it until we curl up and die.

But I believe we are in the right hands. Whatever happens this season, and I still believe we'll push for 4th, we will be better equipped for the next season and so on and so forth.

Where did I compare them?

You are sentenced to life.

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In fact yeah, all this Twitter bollocks with videos etc etc, get a grip. We dont want prefects walking round finch farm like under moyes but when we ain't performing I don't wanna see the afro/Belgian clique filming shite.

 

Get serious Roberto, too much shite going on.

You a bit angry old chap?!

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You are sentenced to life.

He didn't compare them, that's the point. Stop being a knob! I may be a knob when it comes to things like Lukaku, moyes, kenwright. People I see as a subject relevant to the performance of our club.... You pick individuals out on a forum that you want to have a spat with.

 

Even mid matches you do it with mirallas, McGeady, McCarthy, Barry or whoever you attach a poster as being someone who differs with you.

 

Your post on this occassion wasn't even accurate, he was stating the need not to compare.

 

Seriously....

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You are sentenced to life.

Such a nerd.

 

Pointing out some basic similarities in the point of their career with Everton is not quite comparing them as such.

 

Comparing them would be to use league finishes, money spent, points gained, cups won, goals for, goals against etc etc.

 

I get where your trying to come from. But as always it's the wrong angle and as always your taking something out of context and as always trying to make something out of nothing. Same old same.

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You a bit angry old chap?!

Been on a driver improvement course today and had too much coffee.

 

To be honest best £75 fine I've spent. Quite humbling experience really. You spend so many years convincing yourself that the wrong things you do are right.

 

Back to Davie moyes.......

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He didn't compare them, that's the point. Stop being a knob! I may be a knob when it comes to things like Lukaku, moyes, kenwright. People I see as a subject relevant to the performance of our club.... You pick individuals out on a forum that you want to have a spat with.

 

Even mid matches you do it with mirallas, McGeady, McCarthy, Barry or whoever you attach a poster as being someone who differs with you.

 

Your post on this occassion wasn't even accurate, he was stating the need not to compare.

 

Seriously....

I wouldn't worry about it. He only ends up whinging and playing the victim.

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Such a nerd.

Pointing out some basic similarities in the point of their career with Everton is not quite comparing them as such.

Comparing them would be to use league finishes, money spent, points gained, cups won, goals for, goals against etc etc.

I get where your trying to come from. But as always it's the wrong angle and as always your taking something out of context and as always trying to make something out of nothing. Same old same.

Hahaha ;)

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Been on a driver improvement course today and had too much coffee.

 

To be honest best £75 fine I've spent. Quite humbling experience really. You spend so many years convincing yourself that the wrong things you do are right.

 

Back to Davie moyes.......

Haha, have you? Been speeding have we?! Is that we're you take a fine but no points? They show you some nasty car crash videos and lecture you?

 

Oh yeah, Moyesie....

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He didn't compare them, that's the point. Stop being a knob! I may be a knob when it comes to things like Lukaku, moyes, kenwright. People I see as a subject relevant to the performance of our club.... You pick individuals out on a forum that you want to have a spat with.

Even mid matches you do it with mirallas, McGeady, McCarthy, Barry or whoever you attach a poster as being someone who differs with you.

Your post on this occassion wasn't even accurate, he was stating the need not to compare.

Seriously....

Everything!!! I post about is relevant to the performance of players.

 

Do you know how many times I've wanted to post 'seriously' under your posts...... You go on and on and on and on, you still go on. Any post of yours that says Rom, Lukaku I don't even read.... Do you know why??? Because I've read it a thousand times before.

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Haha, have you? Been speeding have we?! Is that we're you take a fine but no points? They show you some nasty car crash videos and lecture you?

 

Oh yeah, Moyesie....

To be honest they have nailed it. Mine was due care and attention. Reality is I was lane hopping around a traffic jam and a young clean shaven chap in an unmarked BMW decided "you would fail your driving test for that " warranted a ticket.

 

I have taken it as a positive "wake up call". You develop horrible habits behind a wheel. The course was more a psychology lesson, not what you do wrong or what you should do right. More "this is why you behave like a knob head - know the triggers and address them"

 

Pretty good.

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To be honest they have nailed it. Mine was due care and attention. Reality is I was lane hopping around a traffic jam and a young clean shaven chap in an unmarked BMW decided "you would fail your driving test for that " warranted a ticket.

 

I have taken it as a positive "wake up call". You develop horrible habits behind a wheel. The course was more a psychology lesson, not what you do wrong or what you should do right. More "this is why you behave like a knob head - know the triggers and address them"

 

Pretty good.

Nice.

 

No danger of that up here in Cumbria...no police...and only one lane roads!!!

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Everything!!! I post about is relevant to the performance of players.

 

Do you know how many times I've wanted to post 'seriously' under your posts...... You go on and on and on and on, you still go on. Any post of yours that says Rom, Lukaku I don't even read.... Do you know why??? Because I've read it a thousand times before.

No you call out forum posters with an excitable semi-on mid match like some 10 year old kid who got a question right on blockbusters.

 

Do I say "hey Matt, look Rom just shinned it to an opponent - he's great isn't he"....,no I've got respect for my fellow members. It's not about beating someone down and holding them to their words. We all want the best for our club.

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No you call out forum posters with an excitable semi-on mid match like some 10 year old kid who got a question right on blockbusters.

Do I say "hey Matt, look Rom just shinned it to an opponent - he's great isn't he"....,no I've got respect for my fellow members. It's not about beating someone down and holding them to their words. We all want the best for our club.

No you try to justify everything you've ever said about players mid-game which is just as annoying. That's why I call you out.

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No you try to justify everything you've ever said about players mid-game which is just as annoying. That's why I call you out.

So that's why you 'call out' Haf.

 

Can I ask why you 'call out' Me? Bailey? MikeO? Millwallforever? Paddock? Etc etc?

 

In fact, can you name a forum member that you have never 'called out'??? You seem to have had run ins with just about all the regular posters.

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So that's why you 'call out' Haf.

Can I ask why you 'call out' Me? Bailey? MikeO? Millwallforever? Paddock? Etc etc?

In fact, can you name a forum member that you have never 'called out'??? You seem to have had run ins with just about all the regular posters.

why the fuck do you insist on bringing other people into this.... Is it so you can get everyone to agree with you and make me feel bad and you to justify being the good guy?

 

I've never called Millwallforever ,out if anything it's he who calls me out.... But I just see it as banter. I find him ok. Paddock I'm fine with I like him. Mike leaves the odd little fishing hook for me sometimes - he's no saint. Bailey I just never agree with.... Everything he posts is the polar opposite .

 

Don't think I've had any disagreement with anyone else. Everyone else seems fine. Maybe Matt, but thes a mutual distance now. He's fine.

 

TenaciousJ. Romey, Markjazzbassist, tonkaroost etc etc regular posters never have run ins with.

 

You though , are always in and around any debate involving me.. Anywhere you can jump in you will. You've tried to pick Paddock of a few times. You are far from the nice guy you try to protect to everyone you are.

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why the fuck do you insist on bringing other people into this.... Is it so you can get everyone to agree with you and make me feel bad and you to justify being the good guy?

 

I've never called Millwallforever ,out if anything it's he who calls me out.... But I just see it as banter. I find him ok. Paddock I'm fine with I like him. Mike leaves the odd little fishing hook for me sometimes - he's no saint. Bailey I just never agree with.... Everything he posts is the polar opposite .

 

Don't think I've had any disagreement with anyone else. Everyone else seems fine. Maybe Matt, but thes a mutual distance now. He's fine.

 

TenaciousJ. Romey, Markjazzbassist, tonkaroost etc etc regular posters never have run ins with.

 

You though , are always in and around any debate involving me.. Anywhere you can jump in you will. You've tried to pick Paddock of a few times. You are far from the nice guy you try to protect to everyone you are.

Is this cotto?

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I can see this fruit writing again.... I can honestly say he's the only bloke who makes me fill threads for pages with off topic drivel. I'm going to bow out before it gets real messy (like it always does with him).

 

By Newty, I couldn't give a shite what you're writing.

I can see this fruit writing again.... I can honestly say he's the only bloke who makes me fill threads for pages with off topic drivel. I'm going to bow out before it gets real messy (like it always does with him).

 

Bye Newty, I couldn't give a shite what you're writing.

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why the fuck do you insist on bringing other people into this.... Is it so you can get everyone to agree with you and make me feel bad and you to justify being the good guy?

 

I've never called Millwallforever ,out if anything it's he who calls me out.... But I just see it as banter. I find him ok. Paddock I'm fine with I like him. Mike leaves the odd little fishing hook for me sometimes - he's no saint. Bailey I just never agree with.... Everything he posts is the polar opposite .

 

Don't think I've had any disagreement with anyone else. Everyone else seems fine.

 

You though , are always in and around any debate involving me.. Anywhere you can jump in you will. You've tried to pick Paddock of a few times. You are far from the nice guy you try to protect to everyone you are.

No no no. I'm just wondering why you seem to have quite a few disagreements with people. I thought you might have some insights. Maybe not.

 

Nothing to do with this nice guy stuff. Thats a part of your imagination. When have I tried to be the nice guy? Or more importantly, what have you got that shows I'm not a nice guy??? Your right though, I shouldn't name anyone. And shouldn't have used the term 'call out'...just disagreements maybe.

 

Just a couple of things...I'm not always in and around debates involving you exclusively. I get involved in debates on the forum because that's what we all do. A lot of time recently I completely ignore your input for obvious reasons,mainly because you go off like this. Also, I have not at all 'picked off' anyone. No one at all. Of course, feel free to prove me wrong. But you can't. Because I haven't. Instead of claiming that I jump into your 'debates', how about you ask yourself why you're always involved in so many disagreements?

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I can see this fruit writing again.... I can honestly say he's the only bloke who makes me fill threads for pages with off topic drivel. I'm going to bow out before it gets real messy (like it always does with him).

 

Bye Newty, I couldn't give a shite what you're writing.

It won't get messy. It's just a conversation. Stop being so touchy. By the way, I don't make you do anything. You choose to do it.

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Guest rusty747

As time goes by I am more and more concerned. Bobby has this unwavering devotion to tippy tappy possession football which is fine. Last year he inherited a squad of players who had played a compleyely different style, under Moyes, for many years. But Bobby got them to buy in to his grand ideas and it seemed to be working.

 

However, this year, Bobby has brought in more players of his own choosing and is getting less out of them than the ones he inherited from Moyes.

 

That is either bad business in the transfer market, bad management or both.

 

Yes, we have injuries but we also have the strength in depth (on paper at least) to still thrive. That we are not doing is down to Bobby.

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Nothing like us playing shit and getting beat regularly to bring drama to a frustrated board :lol:

 

Very True Paddock. My question with everyone bashing the RM philosophy of no Plan B and just Tiki Taka pass it around, how has Arsenal gotten 11 straight CL qualifications playing the exact same system? They pass around all day with huge possession stats, don't ever switch to hoof ball, and frequently pass sideways and backwards. Goes to show it's not the philosophy or that it's been "found out", just that we need better players.

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how has Arsenal gotten 11 straight CL qualifications playing the exact same system?

Because they are a better and more lucrative side which dwarfs us in every department financially and commercially which obviously brings in a much higher standard of player

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Very True Paddock. My question with everyone bashing the RM philosophy of no Plan B and just Tiki Taka pass it around, how has Arsenal gotten 11 straight CL qualifications playing the exact same system? They pass around all day with huge possession stats, don't ever switch to hoof ball, and frequently pass sideways and backwards. Goes to show it's not the philosophy or that it's been "found out", just that we need better players.

Easy they have better players, more money (to buy even more better players) a better manager, a better board a better stadium a better business plan better everything really but most importantly a much better squad of players who are suited to that style of play.

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The Arsenal thing...its only been the last couple of seasons that Arsenal have really splashed the cash. Before that, they had one of the lowest net spends in the league.

 

I know we can argue about the stadium, finances etc but Arsenes way has also been to buy relatively cheap.

 

The key is that through fierce criticism, Arsene has stuck to his principles of play and development.

 

Roberto will sort it out. We just seem a bit lost at the moment with a fair bit of players moving around up top etc.

 

I'm pretty sure that even Sir Alex Ferguson had critics throughout his career.

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Been on a driver improvement course today and had too much coffee.

 

To be honest best £75 fine I've spent. Quite humbling experience really. You spend so many years convincing yourself that the wrong things you do are right.

 

Back to Davie moyes.......

We could have saved you £75....... :rofl:

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I think when Stones is fit and with a few more games under his belt he will be able to play 'the Martinez' way, likewise McCarthy, Naismith also looks capable.Besic looks to have a great future, but he needs a bit more time.

 

Lukaku's looking sound with his injury behind him.I think Ross is one of the players Martinez needs to work with, he seems to recieve the ball and just about fucking explodes with intent.....get that energy harnessed, work on his head as well as his feet and we could just start seeing the best young talent in England.

 

So prem forms looking a bit dodgy, but I think he's working on the bigger picture......just need a bit more luck and a couple of wins.

 

Tippy Tappy footballs great when you win.........and shite when you lose, for me the jurys out, but he didn't come here for the short term, so I guess we just hold on tight.

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i think he needs to go back and look and see what was successful last season. last season was a combo of moyes and martinez tactics, sometimes we went direct, sometimes we played out the back, it wasn't cut and dry always play out the back. in addition he changed our formation up, we did 433 sometimes (arsenal) and it really did well. we even played 3 at the back. youngsters were given a chance, everyone was loaned out. subs made a difference and weren't always conventional. injuries were standard level.

 

this season its' 4231, best players play no matter what position, no youngsters get a chance and aren't even loaned (except kennedy and pennington). always pass from the back. their whole side could be in our third and romelu could be wide open but pass out the back. subs are far and few between, most games we don't even use all 3 (even though we have the deepest squad ever) and are ill timed. injuries have become an epidemic. its as if there is sometime wrong with the training regimen.

 

i hope he goes back to last seasons tapes and corrects these issues. i've always backed roberto and still will, i think he's a great manager, but sometimes wrong and he's not changing it and i'm getting worried. he wasn't like this last year.

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i think he needs to go back and look and see what was successful last season. last season was a combo of moyes and martinez tactics, sometimes we went direct, sometimes we played out the back, it wasn't cut and dry always play out the back. in addition he changed our formation up, we did 433 sometimes (arsenal) and it really did well. we even played 3 at the back. youngsters were given a chance, everyone was loaned out. subs made a difference and weren't always conventional. injuries were standard level.

 

this season its' 4231, best players play no matter what position, no youngsters get a chance and aren't even loaned (except kennedy and pennington). always pass from the back. their whole side could be in our third and romelu could be wide open but pass out the back. subs are far and few between, most games we don't even use all 3 (even though we have the deepest squad ever) and are ill timed. injuries have become an epidemic. its as if there is sometime wrong with the training regimen.

 

i hope he goes back to last seasons tapes and corrects these issues. i've always backed roberto and still will, i think he's a great manager, but sometimes wrong and he's not changing it and i'm getting worried. he wasn't like this last year.

Agree with all of this.

 

I've kept quiet on this until now, but today was a joke.

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i think he needs to go back and look and see what was successful last season. last season was a combo of moyes and martinez tactics, sometimes we went direct, sometimes we played out the back, it wasn't cut and dry always play out the back. in addition he changed our formation up, we did 433 sometimes (arsenal) and it really did well. we even played 3 at the back. youngsters were given a chance, everyone was loaned out. subs made a difference and weren't always conventional. injuries were standard level.

 

this season its' 4231, best players play no matter what position, no youngsters get a chance and aren't even loaned (except kennedy and pennington). always pass from the back. their whole side could be in our third and romelu could be wide open but pass out the back. subs are far and few between, most games we don't even use all 3 (even though we have the deepest squad ever) and are ill timed. injuries have become an epidemic. its as if there is sometime wrong with the training regimen.

 

i hope he goes back to last seasons tapes and corrects these issues. i've always backed roberto and still will, i think he's a great manager, but sometimes wrong and he's not changing it and i'm getting worried. he wasn't like this last year.

It's exactly the same formula as last season Mark. Nothing different whatsoever except maybe the Moyes mentality and defensive mindedness of the back four is gone.

 

We're predictable mate we play the same way every game wxcept a slight variation. We are playing 3 number 10s snd mixing them round in a forward 3 and it doesn't work. It's like watching the fucking chuckle brothers.. To me.. To you (google it) we have no width, no penetration and no idea. We're so narrow it's blindingly obvious. Any manager with half a clue will tell his team to press our back four high, harrassthem when they have the ball , snuff our full back out by the left and right mids dropping deep to double up on them and squeeze our front 3 in tight in the final third. Finally sit back and let them have it. Job done.

 

There's no variation in tactics it's just a mixture of players playing the same way. We're asking numerous players to play in a system or style they're not accustomed to and opposition managers see this and exploit it.

 

What planet is he on expecting Jagielka and Distin to spray balls across the back and stroll forward with it like they're Bobby Moore and Sergio Ramos? It's fucking ridiculous they can't do it yet they're instructid to play this way and they're terrified when they have the ball like rabbits in a head light. It's fucking cannon fodder to a decent front two and that's why two solid centre halves are all of a sudden looking like Sunday league players.

 

I can't fathom for the life of me whypeople can't and haven't seen this happening. I've been whining and whining about it and probably doing everyones heads in but it's really happening right in front of every fuckers eyes and everyone keeps expecting a false dawn every game and us to click and go on this unbeaten run.... Well I'm telling you now it's not going to come , Martinez will drag us down into a mid to bottom table team in 3 years flat. What will come next is we'll lose Mirallas, the league money will drop and Barkley will be sold (not a bad thing in my eyes but thats for another thread) then Stones, McCarthy and so on and he'll replace them with shite.

 

He'll fuck this club over until we're ruined mark my words. Everyone will jump all over me for saying this but whatever, lets see in 2 years time and the sad thing is I'll take no pleasure out of being right it'll be to the detrement of us all but too late.

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I thought martinez was going to be a big success here but now I have major doubts.

im starting to think he talks a load of shite.

what today was all about I havnt got a clue, a top manager would have changed it at half time.

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Phil Neville on MOTD, that little shit won't fail to try a point scoring exercise to get digs in.

 

BTW paddock, Barkley was the only man in that side today bar besic, had the courage to try and run the ball and do stuff. I really don't see where you are coming from with him. Do you need proving right? His ability for his age as a centre midfielder is way and above anything else you would have seen in this league since fabregas emerging.

 

On a day where lukaku completely shit out of an aerial challenge in the box to score an own goal, you mention Barkley. Imagine if it was Barkley who had that performance today.... Seriously.

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I seen the shit talk over a year ago!

 

We just aren't a good side atm. So mis jointed and this brand of possession based football is boring to watch and also pretty fruitless.

 

I'm worried about the players we have, especially out wide. Pienaar is pretty much finished.... He's always been a big player for us. McGeady just isn't good enough and that's pretty much all we've got out wide. Martinez is then filling these gaps playing Barkley out wide and now Naismith.

 

The back four is also a major worry. Coleman looks lost a shadow of his former self. Baines seems to be anonymous these days - certainly not the player he was. Jagielka and Distin look awful.

 

I'm struggling to work out if the players are now on a downward spiral or it's down to the manager. It's possibly a mix of the two. However he doesn't seem to be changing anything.

 

Barry has to be dropped. He's been absolutely shite.

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I seen the shit talk over a year ago!

 

We just aren't a good side atm. So mis jointed and this brand of possession based football is boring to watch and also pretty fruitless.

 

I'm worried about the players we have, especially out wide. Pienaar is pretty much finished.... He's always been a big player for us. McGeady just isn't good enough and that's pretty much all we've got out wide. Martinez is then filling these gaps playing Barkley out wide and now Naismith.

 

The back four is also a major worry. Coleman looks lost a shadow of his former self. Baines seems to be anonymous these days - certainly not the player he was. Jagielka and Distin look awful.

 

I'm struggling to work out if the players are now on a downward spiral or it's down to the manager. It's possibly a mix of the two. However he doesn't seem to be changing anything.

 

Barry has to be dropped. He's been absolutely shite.

Of course you seen this over a year ago. I'm pretty certain you never got excited about finishing top 4 and then I'm the summer you didn't dream of big things with the £28m capture of lukaku.

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Of course you seen this over a year ago. I'm pretty certain you never got excited about finishing top 4 and then I'm the summer you didn't dream of big things with the £28m capture of lukaku.

I was the first one to say on here Martinez talks shit & I can't listen to him over a year ago. Which a lot of people didn't like on here. Now there's loads of people on to him.

 

I was excited about this season. I thought we'd kick on. But we have been nothing short of dire. The usually solid back four is a shambles after 1 year in charge.

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I was the first one to say on here Martinez talks shit & I can't listen to him over a year ago. Which a lot of people didn't like on here. Now there's loads of people on to him.

 

I was excited about this season. I thought we'd kick on. But we have been nothing short of dire. The usually solid back four is a shambles after 1 year in charge.

I will agree, at times of 7/10 onwards then positivity is great. When it's 4/10 they need bollocking.

 

I actually think Martinez went ape shit on them today and refused to bail them out.

 

 

There we go, Phil nev said Everton are a winable game for palace....

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I still believe in Martinez. He hasn't come out and spouted a load of over the top positives. He's been honest.

 

But he does need to decide who he wants to play as a starting 11. And in what position.

 

It feels like he is tinkering a bit too much. However, some of this is forced...injuries, extra fixtures etc.

 

I think he is as frustrated as us at the moment.

 

Has he got it wrong? Well the table doesn't lie. Neither do our performances. But I won't write the season off yet...not when I know we are capable of more than this.

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I honestly think he's just got too big for his boots. Same as Rodgers.

Do you really? I'm not sure about that one.

 

Rodgers has much less excuse, the amount of money he's been allowed to spend. The number of players he has brought in.

 

Martinez isn't even midway through his 2nd season. I'll reserve full judgement for a little longer. But he needs to get these players going pretty quickly.

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I think there is a bit of a case of “second season syndrome“, teams have wised up on closing us down quickly. This is compounded by the lack of width we have. When we dont play with 2 wingers are full backs have nobody to play off or a fast oulet to get the ball forward quickly. Everyone drifts inside and attacks stall.

 

Mirallas and Oviedo being injured and Pienaar being injured and not up to the form of old as well as Mcgeady taking longer to settle, and Atsu not up to scratch means we just havent had the width.

 

We desperatly need to sign a couple ofwingers in Jan and hope they can link up with Baines and Coleman quickly.

 

I also think Jags came back shell shocked from the world cup which affected the whole team.

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