Where are we really?

[Oztoffee]

I've supported this club for as long as I can remember, and that's along time indeed. I went missing in 1974 to 1979 to NZ and was completely out of touch with football in a rugby-mad country. I got the odd Football Echo from me Dad, but that was it. A couple of years back in Blighty and off to OZ since then.

The reason for the potted history is to let you know that my close attachment to the Blues has been marred by distance a couple of times so there are long periods where I had little idea of what was happening.

When I was in UK the blues were a team to be reckoned with, a team with a long and glorious history that counted for something, a team that other clubs looked up to, wanted to emulate, and had no trouble getting players. It seems that somewhere between 1980 and 1990 it all turned to shit. My old man, God rest his Evertonian soul reckoned it was all Mike Walker's fault. But I looked and found that most Everton managers have been middle of the road at best. In fact, Martinez has the best win % ratio of any manager. WTF?

However, this post is more concerned about how we have fared compared to others.

Some folk on here are horrified that a player would rather go to W. Ham or Stoke or, god forbid, Palace than come to us.

 

What went wrong somewhere (and why) that we have fallen so abysmally into the abyss that the likes of Swansea and Soton are considered better bets than Everton when it comes to signing contracts?

 

How do the supporters of other teams see us? Or am I just an old man locked in the past?

If the latter is true maybe I should just enjoy it.

 

You can find the stats on managers here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Everton_F.C._managers Odd reading!

Edited August 12, 2015 by Oztoffee

[Cornish Steve]

I've mentioned it a few times, but I don't understand how people can't see that Everton are pursuing a strategy that is out-and-out different from others. If we do the same as everyone, just buying the latest name that supporters happen to like based on our financial means, we'll be mid to low table forever. When everyone does the same, there's a clear correlation with financial means. That's a basic rule of life. Why does anyone think that Everton are immune? Spend 10th in a league where everyone follows the same approach and we finish 10th or thereabouts. Simple as.

 

So, to break that mould, we have to play to a different set of rules. And that, right now, is investing much more in youth. Just look at the calibre of some of the youngsters brought in, players that the biggest football powers were unable to attract. Our future is very bright! But, of course, it's not an instant panacea, taking a few years, and the risk is that too many supporters will continue to do what happens elsewhere, and that's blame the manager for doing no more than what financial constraints allow. Just look at the managerial turnover in recent years; it's plain ridiculous. Understandable, given the fast-food mentality that dominates today's society, but still ridiculous.

 

So what do people want? Finish 8th while our spending justifies 10th? Is that success? Playing to the same set of rules, we'll never finish in the top four. Or we can play to different rules and build a lasting legacy, which takes time. Do supporters have the guts to see that through? Based on recent messages and polls, it doesn't look like it. We're as short-sighted as everyone else and demand instant gratification.

[Makis]

If we really were doing that, investing in youth, we should do it for real. It does not involve paying big wages to players like Kone, Barry and Alcaraz. Cleverley is no spring chicken either and Lennon won't fit this description either if he signs, as rumours suggest.

[StevO]

You can invest plenty in youth. It guarantees nothing.

Only around 2% of the youth players at premier league clubs will actually make a career in high level football.

You have to supplement the youth with first team players. Or to put it more accurately you have to supplement first team players with youth.

 

But we aren't saving first team money to plough it into youth. I don't know where you got that idea from.

 

No one is demanding instant success. Just demanding to compete with our peers.

Edited August 12, 2015 by StevO

[markjazzbassist]

up shit creek without a paddle

[MC11]

I genuinely believe a different manager with a different philosophy could get this squad (without any additional signings) in the top 6. That's my problem with it all the team just doesn't look motivated or arsed.

[markjazzbassist]

I genuinely believe a different manager with a different philosophy could get this squad (without any additional signings) in the top 6. That's my problem with it all the team just doesn't look motivated or arsed.

 

yeah i agree. if we played direct and by that i don't mean hoofball, i mean fast paced movement from front to back with an emphasis on getting it into the box and taking a shot regardless of amount of possesion. plus if we had someone that cared about defense and set pieces i'm sure that's at least 9 points added right there.

[Paddock]

If we really were doing that, investing in youth, we should do it for real. It does not involve paying big wages to players like Kone, Barry and Alcaraz. Cleverley is no spring chicken either and Lennon won't fit this description either if he signs, as rumours suggest.

Cleverley was 26 today. Hardly ancient.

[London Blue]

I believe Martinez can get us to the Champs league if he gets the signings we need.

 

I think Martinez knows that without a genuine playmaker he cannot play the system he wants to, we lack the creative outlet to open up defenses and it shows.

 

So he plays McCarthy and Barry in midfield instead of just one of them, as a result we are too defensively minded, we don't have the players in attacking positions to keep the attack going, or the number 10 who can orchestrate them. Attacks stall, we have loads of possession but no penetration.

 

I'll judge Martinez when he has had a chance to get the players in he needs.

 

Howard Kendall always said "It takes 3 years to build a team" - with Broke Blue Bill in charge it may take considerably longer.

[MC11]

I believe Martinez can get us to the Champs league if he gets the signings we need.

 

I think Martinez knows that without a genuine playmaker he cannot play the system he wants to, we lack the creative outlet to open up defenses and it shows.

 

So he plays McCarthy and Barry in midfield instead of just one of them, as a result we are too defensively minded, we don't have the players in attacking positions to keep the attack going, or the number 10 who can orchestrate them. Attacks stall, we have loads of possession but no penetration.

 

I'll judge Martinez when he has had a chance to get the players in he needs.

 

Howard Kendall always said "It takes 3 years to build a team" - with Broke Blue Bill in charge it may take considerably longer.

This creative player we need... If he gets injured we're back to square one. It's about adapting tactics with the players you've got. How much more open and free flowing did we look when Barry went to left back at the weekend?

[London Blue]

This creative player we need... If he gets injured we're back to square one. It's about adapting tactics with the players you've got. How much more open and free flowing did we look when Barry went to left back at the weekend?

Adapting to face short term problem like injury is one thing.

 

Not being able to event try it due to lack resources is another.

[Newty82]

We are at a stage where fans are feeling frustrated but not really to sure who that should be aimed at. Martinez? Bill? Players? Each other?

 

I think it's because we have an unusual kind of nervous energy about the upcoming season inc. finances, transfers, tactics, etc. And it's creating anxiety.

 

An example...when have any of our fans ever booed at half time for the first game of the season? It's meant to be the most exciting time of year...finally the season kicks off...bye bye DIY, cricket and talking to the wife.

 

We need to just wait for the window to close, see who comes in or not, wait a few games to see if anything evolves in our play. Basically just calm down a bit.

 

Otherwise you'll all be coming to see me for blood pressure medication after just one week of the season!!!

[markjazzbassist]

We are at a stage where fans are feeling frustrated but not really to sure who that should be aimed at. Martinez? Bill? Players? Each other?

 

I think it's because we have an unusual kind of nervous energy about the upcoming season inc. finances, transfers, tactics, etc. And it's creating anxiety.

 

An example...when have any of our fans ever booed at half time for the first game of the season? It's meant to be the most exciting time of year...finally the season kicks off...bye bye DIY, cricket and talking to the wife.

 

We need to just wait for the window to close, see who comes in or not, wait a few games to see if anything evolves in our play. Basically just calm down a bit.

 

Otherwise you'll all be coming to see me for blood pressure medication after just one week of the season!!!

 

LOL. damn you newty it's all your fault we suck! the manager and half injured team are fine, but if only you didn't lift so many weights we would be winning :shaking fist:

[Newty82]

 

LOL. damn you newty it's all your fault we suck! the manager and half injured team are fine, but if only you didn't lift so many weights we would be winning :shaking fist:

Haha...I'm not sure why I put that or of I was meant to put that!!!

[Paddock]

Board and Martinez. More board, they appointed him and are also now not backing him.

[Romey 1878]

We need to just wait for the window to close, see who comes in or not, wait a few games to see if anything evolves in our play. Basically just calm down a bit.

Otherwise you'll all be coming to see me for blood pressure medication after just one week of the season!!!

The thing is though, Newty, then you'll have fans saying "the windows closed now so there's nothing we can do about it, so don't worry" or "let's wait until January and see how we're doing then and what players we bring in". When we did fuck all last January even though we needed to do something it was "there's no value in the January window so let's wait and see what we do in the summer". Well, the summer is here now and we're fucking this up too.

 

There's always an excuse trotted out whenever fans get anxious. Not saying it's you btw, just pointing it out that you can write the script now.

[Hegemon92]

It seems that somewhere between 1980 and 1990 it all turned to shit.

 

 

Going back to this little caveat, the aftermath of the Heysel Stadium Disaster and Thatcher's/UEFA's ban of English Clubs took a particular toll on Everton. Everton were officially banned from the European Cup in the 1985-1986 and 1987-1988 seasons, from the European Cup Winners' Cup in the 1986-1987 season, and from the UEFA Cup in the 1988-1989 season.

[nyblue23]

I've supported this club for as long as I can remember, and that's along time indeed. I went missing in 1974 to 1979 to NZ and was completely out of touch with football in a rugby-mad country. I got the odd Football Echo from me Dad, but that was it. A couple of years back in Blighty and off to OZ since then.

The reason for the potted history is to let you know that my close attachment to the Blues has been marred by distance a couple of times so there are long periods where I had little idea of what was happening.

When I was in UK the blues were a team to be reckoned with, a team with a long and glorious history that counted for something, a team that other clubs looked up to, wanted to emulate, and had no trouble getting players. It seems that somewhere between 1980 and 1990 it all turned to shit. My old man, God rest his Evertonian soul reckoned it was all Mike Walker's fault. But I looked and found that most Everton managers have been middle of the road at best. In fact, Martinez has the best win % ratio of any manager. WTF?

However, this post is more concerned about how we have fared compared to others.

Some folk on here are horrified that a player would rather go to W. Ham or Stoke or, god forbid, Palace than come to us.

 

What went wrong somewhere (and why) that we have fallen so abysmally into the abyss that the likes of Swansea and Soton are considered better bets than Everton when it comes to signing contracts?

 

How do the supporters of other teams see us? Or am I just an old man locked in the past?

If the latter is true maybe I should just enjoy it.

 

You can find the stats on managers here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Everton_F.C._managers Odd reading!

Poor sample-size and non-updated Wikipedia article. Martinez's win percentage is actually 44.79 with Everton (43-25-28) with a (21-9-8) premier league record in his first season, meaning (22-16-20) in his second premier league + all other competitions (.379... not so good).

[Formby]

We’re nowhere, to be honest: a once relevant, but currently insignificant club, somewhat admired by traditionalists, too small and too poor to make an imprint anywhere, playing in a stadium which is the definition of an anachronism, capable of producing good young players but not keeping them, capable of raising their game now and again, the supporters living on memories and forlorn hope (like Waiting For Godot), but fundamentally like most other clubs, playing for league position and not the biggest prizes. We’re not alone in that.

On Martinez: I was a big supporter but he’s making the mistakes Moyes made. So, more of the same. The only thing that would change our fate is money (lots of it). It’s not going to happen soon and may never happen. Plenty of clubs in that boat, too.

Doesn’t stop me loving the club.

​

[codders78]

You can invest plenty in youth. It guarantees nothing.

Only around 2% of the youth players at premier league clubs will actually make a career in high level football.

You have to supplement the youth with first team players. Or to put it more accurately you have to supplement first team players with youth.

 

But we aren't saving first team money to plough it into youth. I don't know where you got that idea from.

 

No one is demanding instant success. Just demanding to compete with our peers.

 

And from that 2% if you are outside of the top 5 then one of them will come and pluck them away from you. I know if you look at our current crop of talented youngsters, Galloway, Stones, and now Holgate we took them from smaller clubs and looked to develop them but once we have done that Chelsea, Man U etc will look to prise them away, aided and abetted by SSN unsettling them.

[nogs]

Interesting quote Martinez talking about a 'golden generation'.

 

http://m.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/33681892

 

I'd love to believe there's a plan to all of this, and the club really reckon they've got a special young group that can go on to make our club great again. Are they that good? Only time will tell I guess. Will it be fun sitting on our hands waiting to find out while other teams spend their way past us for the next two or three seasons? Of course not, a fan's patience only lasts to the next game, but it'd be nice to dream there is a silver lining somewhere.

[StevO]

We do have lots of good prospects. We have more than most, lots of our youth players go on to make, a hell of a lot more than most other big teams.

But anyone think how long you've followed Everton, and how many have made it in that time.

There aren't really that many, yet we are still amongst the highest.

 

There is no guarantee these players will make it. You need to bring in first team players.

 

Look at players like Baxter, Kissock, Vaughan. You have everything just in those three. So much ability. One got too many injuries, one didn't really like football in the end, one liked going out too much.

Some of our "golden generation" won't have half the ability of these three, but they might have the drive to make it. You just don't know, so don't expect too much from them.

Chances are, if we see one of them make it we are doing well.

 

We have the likes of Garbutt, Stones and Galloway. But they were players ready to make the step up when we signed them, I've no doubt they will go into make it. But the other lads down there, I hope they buck the trend of the last ten years or more.

[nogs]

Totally agree Steve. Having 4 21 or younger ready for Prem football (Barkley, Stones, Garbutt, Galloway) is quite an achievement. Add in two or three more out of Besic, Browning, McAleny, Dowell, Ledson, Holgate etc. and you can probably start talking about a golden generation. And lets not forget Lukaku is still a kid really, plus Gerry.

 

And yes, drive and committment is everything. Best way to nurture that? Get them in playing together and foster a real collective identity, team spirit and shared will to win. Crack that and it's exciting times.

 

But like I say, we're two or three years away from seeing that bear fruit, and as you say, the odds for all or most of them making it are strongly against.

[StevO]

Totally agree Steve. Having 4 21 or younger ready for Prem football (Barkley, Stones, Garbutt, Galloway) is quite an achievement. Add in two or three more out of Besic, Browning, McAleny, Dowell, Ledson, Holgate etc. and you can probably start talking about a golden generation. And lets not forget Lukaku is still a kid really, plus Gerry.

 

And yes, drive and committment is everything. Best way to nurture that? Get them in playing together and foster a real collective identity, team spirit and shared will to win. Crack that and it's exciting times.

 

But like I say, we're two or three years away from seeing that bear fruit, and as you say, the odds for all or most of them making it are strongly against.

 

Completely agree. Barkley, Stones, Garbutt, Galloway, Gerry, Lukaku, can even throw Seamus & McCarthy in there as they have got a good six or seven solid seasons left in them, and we have the basis of a very good team there for the long term. Players need to be brought in along side them.

 

---------------------Lukaku---------------------

???? -------------- ???? -------------- Gerry

-----------Barkley ---- McCarthy -----------

Garbutt - Galloway - Stones - Coleman

-----------------------????----------------------

 

 

 

 

If we get one out of Browning, McAleny, Dowell, Ledson and Holgate id be made up. I'd bank on McAleny and Browning not making it though. I think McAleny is just coming in too late, and should we get this play maker he wont get a chance. I like Browning, hes seems a good lad and works hard, but I just don't have a good feeling about him. Hope I'm wrong.

Edited August 14, 2015 by StevO

[Mogsy]

We have keep them at the club first! That's the main problem! Utd had the money to keep their golden generation at the club, we don't.

[StevO]

That's where strong leadership needs to come in mogsy.

[Mogsy]

That's where strong leadership needs to come in mogsy.

We're screwed then ?

[Cornish Steve]

 

Completely agree. Barkley, Stones, Garbutt, Galloway, Gerry, Lukaku, can even throw Seamus & McCarthy in there as they have got a good six or seven solid seasons left in them, and we have the basis of a very good team there for the long term. Players need to be brought in along side them.

 

---------------------Lukaku---------------------

???? -------------- ???? -------------- Gerry

-----------Barkley ---- McCarthy -----------

Garbutt - Galloway - Stones - Coleman

-----------------------????----------------------

 

 

 

 

If we get one out of Browning, McAleny, Dowell, Ledson and Holgate id be made up. I'd bank on McAleny and Browning not making it though. I think McAleny is just coming in too late, and should we get this play maker he wont get a chance. I like Browning, hes seems a good lad and works hard, but I just don't have a good feeling about him. Hope I'm wrong.

 

And don't forget Robles.