Brexit...

[Cornish Steve]

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2016/jul/03/eu-swiss-single-market-access-no-free-movement-citizens?CMP=share_btn_tw

 

 

 

The European Union is to show its determination to make no concessions to the UK on Brexit terms by telling Switzerland it will lose access to the single market if it goes ahead with plans to impose controls on the free movement of EU citizens.

 

Doubling down on intransigence. That's going to get the EU nowhere.

[Matt]

It's our fault for electing these morons in the first place. Every single one of them is bought and paid for. So long as we all have our football, booze and bets hey!

yup, got we deserve by voting that scum in. There needs to be a genuine revolution in terms of the government setup. Personally, I'd give every party a voice, not just 1 and they would have to work together to bring about reform cia teamwork and compromise

[Matt]

Doubling down on intransigence. That's going to get the EU nowhere.

really? I think it sends a very strong message to not fuck with destabilising the project

[Cornish Steve]

Why has nobody told us how many millions or trillions has poured into the stock market they told us when it came off the couple of days after we left Europe.

 

The US stock market is already higher than it was before the vote. Allow a little time for the manufactured panic to die down, and then we'll see whether the FTSE and exchange rate have dropped, remained the same, or risen. My bet is that there will be no net impact.

[Matt]

 

The US stock market is already higher than it was before the vote. Allow a little time for the manufactured panic to die down, and then we'll see whether the FTSE and exchange rate have dropped, remained the same, or risen. My bet is that there will be no net impact.

of course there won't, until we actually make the move to leave. Then there will be big repercussions.

[Cornish Steve]

Cameron did the only smart thing he could and stepped down.

 

Its all his fault to begin with. There should never have been a referendum. And he should have been alot more active in the campaigning.

 

That's right. The government managed to deny the people a vote for several decades. What a shame they couldn't deny them for a few more. The less input we allow the ignorant minions, the better their lives will be. They just haven't realized yet what's best for them - and only a handful of the elite know that little secret.

[MikeO]

 

That's right. The government managed to deny the people a vote for several decades. What a shame they couldn't deny them for a few more. The less input we allow the ignorant minions, the better their lives will be. They just haven't realized yet what's best for them - and only a handful of the elite know that little secret.

 

How so? The people elect the government to make decisions based on their manifesto and then it's their responsibility to carry that out. We put our trust in them and give them the authority to do so.

 

If the government had to ask the people what they thought on every bit of legislation they passed what would be the point of electing them in the first place?

 

We could just have civil servants and a referendum on every issue so let the people decide.

[holystove]

 

That's right. The government managed to deny the people a vote for several decades. What a shame they couldn't deny them for a few more. The less input we allow the ignorant minions, the better their lives will be. They just haven't realized yet what's best for them - and only a handful of the elite know that little secret.

I disagree with the first part of your post. The members of the UK Parliament are elected by the people and ever since the UK joined the EU the UK Parliament has ratified every treaty that has given more powers to the EU. *edit*: just read that Mike already replied to you on that issue.

 

I do somewhat agree with the second part of your post, although I wouldn't have worded it that strongly. (I realize you were being sarcastic). I do believe because of the massive disinformation (on both sides, but that's exactly the point) and because of the anti-establisment sentiment people were voting for or against something other than the EU. See entry #1130.

Edited July 4, 2016 by holystove

[Cornish Steve]

 

How so? The people elect the government to make decisions based on their manifesto and then it's their responsibility to carry that out. We put our trust in them and give them the authority to do so.

 

If the government had to ask the people what they thought on every bit of legislation they passed what would be the point of electing them in the first place?

 

We could just have civil servants and a referendum on every issue so let the people decide.

 

In elections, we vote for a variety of policies, not just one. I feel pretty certain that, if this vote had been held years ago, the result would have been the same.

[Cornish Steve]

 

I disagree with the first part of your post. The members of the UK Parliament are elected by the people and ever since the UK joined the EU the UK Parliament has ratified every treaty that has given more powers to the EU. *edit*: just read that Mike already replied to you on that issue.

 

I do somewhat agree with the second part of your post, although I wouldn't have worded it that strongly. (I realize you were being sarcastic). I do believe because of the massive disinformation (on both sides, but that's exactly the point) and because of the anti-establisment sentiment people were voting for or against something other than the EU. See entry #1130.

 

Yes, I was being sarcastic.

[Matt]

In elections, we vote for a variety of policies, not just one. I feel pretty certain that, if this vote had been held years ago, the result would have been the same.

ive always had the feeling that most people vote for who they like or which party they prefer over policies

[holystove]

http://www.politico.com/magazine/story/2016/07/5-us-independence-movements-inspired-by-brexit-214010

 

“If Britain can leave the EU then New Hampshire can leave the U.S,” the leader of the newly founded NHexit movement (as in, New Hampshire exit) said a few days later, as he staged a secessionist protest in front of a federal building in Manchester.

 

Larry Kilgore, who is now running for governor of the state of Texas in 2018, said in an interview that Brexit was a great thing because “it will encourage other nations to rise up against their oppressors.” When I asked him who he meant by “other nations,” he rattled off a few names, including California and North Carolina.

 

“In the wake of the U.K.’s 'Brexit' vote, we are receiving queries from all over the world— is a ‘Vexit’—Vermont nonviolently seceding from the United States of Empire—next?” “We have the blueprints, we have the platform, we have the book, we have the passport, and we have the flag,” wrote Williams.

[holystove]

Meanwhile on the continent:

 

http://www.politico.eu/article/danish-eu-support-rises-post-brexit-opinion-poll/ - http://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2016-07-04/eu-support-surges-in-denmark-as-brexit-scare-spreads-in-nordics

 

The European Union is more popular in Denmark than it was before the U.K. voted to leave the bloc, according to an opinion poll published Monday.

A Voxmeter poll has 69 percent of those surveyed supporting Danish membership of the EU, up from 59.8 percent a week before the vote.

A post-Brexit survey in Finland released last week also saw a rise in support for EU membership, up from 56 percent in March to 68 percent, Bloomberg reported.

[Formby]

Meanwhile on the continent:

 

http://www.politico.eu/article/danish-eu-support-rises-post-brexit-opinion-poll/ - http://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2016-07-04/eu-support-surges-in-denmark-as-brexit-scare-spreads-in-nordics

 

The European Union is more popular in Denmark than it was before the U.K. voted to leave the bloc, according to an opinion poll published Monday.

A Voxmeter poll has 69 percent of those surveyed supporting Danish membership of the EU, up from 59.8 percent a week before the vote.

A post-Brexit survey in Finland released last week also saw a rise in support for EU membership, up from 56 percent in March to 68 percent, Bloomberg reported.

 

Suggesting the EU is a more attractive place minus the UK or that they are fearful of the punitive measures coming their way should they secede?

[MikeO]

 

In elections, we vote for a variety of policies, not just one. I feel pretty certain that, if this vote had been held years ago, the result would have been the same.

 

In which case I've been denied a chance to vote on gun law, tax levels, immigration, prison guidelines, nuclear weapons, foreign aid, abortion, etc etc ad infinitum for decades as well.

[holystove]

 

Suggesting the EU is a more attractive place minus the UK or that they are fearful of the punitive measures coming their way should they secede?

 

Maybe, just like the Britons they googled what the EU is on the 24th and decided it's pretty good.

[Peter H]

 

Maybe, just like the Britons they googled what the EU is on the 24th and decided it's pretty good.

 

I mentioned it before, that the support for the EU has gone up in Sweden since the vote. I think its to do with two main things:

 

 

 

1 - We want to show our support for those less fortunate. Immigration had a major part to play in Brexit. Scandinavians want to show that you are welcome to create a better world for yourself by coming here. (and believe me, the scandinavian economy needs immigration, Sweden is doing very well atm because of immigration)

 

2 - Us Swedes and other Scandinavians are very internet savvy and like to read up and fight for our way of life online (See sweden reddit vs trump reddit online. Very funny reading, but also a clear stand against the politics that Trump stands for which is a major part of the leave campaign). We also see the rest of the world joking about the brits and their exit from the EU and find it funny. (for example, John Oliver video, Rick Astley PM campaign, UK competing with the US on being the most idiotic but the US has a trump card etc etc)

 

All of that adds up to a larger support for the Eu. There are even campaigns right now, and shouts for Sweden to implement the Euro now. That was unthinkable 4 weeks ago.

[MikeO]

And another thing...

 

 

In elections, we vote for a variety of policies, not just one. I feel pretty certain that, if this vote had been held years ago, the result would have been the same.

 

I feel pretty certain that, if this vote was held tomorrow the result would be different. Many out voters would look at the people they were voting with admitting they were lying and jumping ship and seeing at the mess we're now in and think again.

 

Could happen (but won't).

 

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/dominic-grieve-brexit-second-eu-referendum-legal-former-attorney-general-says-7119491.html

[Lowensda]

[Cornish Steve]

It's easy to mock the Brexit vote and to claim the British people are stupid, ignorant, and racist. Frankly, I don't believe most of what I read right now because it's emotional and, in my opinion, a bit of a media hit job. The facts are nowhere near as bad as they are made out. For example, it turns out that Britain is less racist than all other countries in the EU (save for some Scandinavians). How many in the general population are aware of that? Maybe leaders (and the media) in Spain, Portugal, France, Belgium, Holland, Italy, etc. should sort out their own racism problems before pointing a finger at Britain. Indeed, mocking and deriding residents of another country is itself a form of racism.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/worldviews/wp/2013/05/15/a-fascinating-map-of-the-worlds-most-and-least-racially-tolerant-countries/

Edited July 5, 2016 by Cornish Steve

[Formby]

 

Suggesting the EU is a more attractive place minus the UK or that they are fearful of the punitive measures coming their way should they secede?

 

 

 

Maybe, just like the Britons they googled what the EU is on the 24th and decided it's pretty good.

 

Only the source you cite (Bloomberg) doesn't say that, does it?

 

“This poll confirms that nobody wants to put themselves in the kind of mess the British have created for themselves,” said Marlene Wind, a professor in political science at the University of Copenhagen.

[MikeO]

It's easy to mock the Brexit vote and to claim the British people are stupid, ignorant, and racist. Frankly, I don't believe most of what I read right now because it's emotional and, in my opinion, a bit of a media hit job. The facts are nowhere near as bad as they are made out. For example, it turns out that Britain is less racist than all other countries in the EU (save for some Scandinavians). How many in the general population are aware of that? Maybe leaders (and the media) in Spain, Portugal, France, Belgium, Holland, Italy, etc. should sort out their own racism problems before pointing a finger at Britain. Indeed, mocking and deriding residents of another country is itself a form of racism.

 

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/worldviews/wp/2013/05/15/a-fascinating-map-of-the-worlds-most-and-least-racially-tolerant-countries/

 

I agree with the first sentence .

[Peter H]

It's easy to mock the Brexit vote and to claim the British people are stupid, ignorant, and racist. Frankly, I don't believe most of what I read right now because it's emotional and, in my opinion, a bit of a media hit job. The facts are nowhere near as bad as they are made out. For example, it turns out that Britain is less racist than all other countries in the EU (save for some Scandinavians). How many in the general population are aware of that? Maybe leaders (and the media) in Spain, Portugal, France, Belgium, Holland, Italy, etc. should sort out their own racism problems before pointing a finger at Britain. Indeed, mocking and deriding residents of another country is itself a form of racism.

 

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/worldviews/wp/2013/05/15/a-fascinating-map-of-the-worlds-most-and-least-racially-tolerant-countries/

Oh we have problems in Scandinavia too, Swedish Democrats (our UKIP) are scoring high in most polls. They had 13% in the last vote and are closer to 18% now. With views such as "muslims are the biggest threat to Europe since the nazis" (actual quote from their leader Jimmie Åkesson)

 

https://youtu.be/ZKtZ05rzKGE

Edited July 5, 2016 by Peter H

[Cornish Steve]

Oh we have problems in Scandinavia too, Swedish Democrats (our UKIP) are scoring high in most polls. They had 13% in the last vote and are closer to 18% now. With views such as "muslims are the biggest threat to Europe since the nazis" (actual quote from their leader Jimmie Åkesson)

 

 

To some extent, I'm implying that failing with an E is OK because others failed with an F - but that's not my intent. Britain has problems with racism, for sure, and we mustn't rest until they are properly addressed. The same can be said of Sweden, right? But for the French, Belgians, Dutch, Germans, etc. to chide us over this matter is a bit rich given that racism is a bigger problem there.

[Matt]

http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-36677623

[Matt]

http://www.bbc.com/news/business-36721689

[Cornish Steve]

http://www.bbc.com/news/business-36721689

 

Plenty will make money on this emotional play. Let's look at the exchange rate in three months' time for the real effects.

[Shukes]

Interestingly Lloyds has prepared for a recession.

According to a very high manager of thiers

 

Can't say I know the reasons why, but she says they have instructed thier managers that it's more of a formality.

[holystove]

I assume this is the left-wing view on things; some interesting points though. Beware, Britain.

 

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2016/jul/04/disaster-capitalism-tory-right-brexit-roll-back-state

 

 

During coming months and years, the unfolding crisis will provide countless pretexts for similar emergency measure that benefit business and roll back the state. So there will be no vote in parliament, no second referendum, no fresh elections: just the most massive legislative programme in history within the current parliament, in which the Tories command an absolute majority based on 37% of the votes cast in the last general election. So much for taking back democratic control.

[Matt]