Norwich City (League Cup Home) Tuesday September 20th

[duncanmckenzieismagic]

 

i'm sure your parents said that about riding the airplane or driving in a car too. it's called life, it's moves on with or without you. things change. the cups aren't what they used to be. so be it.

Why do you support Everton if it's not to see us win trophies?

 

 

However unlikely it is I go to every game desperately wanting us to win it. I honestly don't think you get that

 

If you're happy to finish 6th then sound I'm happy for you but personally that's not good enough for me

 

 

 

 

[duncanmckenzieismagic]

 

Whatever people have written the '84 league cup final was pitiful in every way, anyone who got belief from that was delusional. It was awful.

 

Gave us the belief that we could be slightly more crap than Liverpool when they played really badly maybe.

It inspired the players to go on to the be the most successful ever Everton side, if it was delusion that got them there then so be it

 

 

[markjazzbassist]

Why do you support Everton if it's not to see us win trophies?

 

 

However unlikely it is I go to every game desperately wanting us to win it. I honestly don't think you get that

 

If you're happy to finish 6th then sound I'm happy for you but personally that's not good enough for me

 

 

 

 

 

i want us to win sure, in the league primarily and in europe. in fa cup or league cup after that. i'd prefer to win in this order

 

champions league

premier league

europa league

fa cup

league cup

 

i'd rather qualify for europe and play there than play league 1 sides in either of the cups, they've lost their luster and the prize money is garbage compared to Europe.

[MikeO]

It inspired the players to go on to the be the most successful ever Everton side, if it was delusion that got them there then so be it

 

The FA Cup run was what inspired them; they did it despite the league cup run, not because of it.

[Bailey]

 

i'd rather top 6 in the league than 11th and mickey mouse cup. way more money getting a higher place in the league and we'd still get europe. I think the modern game has changed in that the european competitions are now more valuable than just winning the cups. whereas back in the day those cups meant something, now they dont' mean anything other than a Europa place which is usually 5-7 anyways.

 

the game has changed dunc, unlike when MikeO was a kid and the FA cup was the biggest thing since sliced bread, it's now just a secondary compeition compared to the ultimate Champions League.

I hate that type of analogy when it is made at this stage of the season because there is absolutely no guarantee of where we will finish. What happens if we get no silverware and 12th? Was it then a bad decision to get dumped out of the cup?

 

Like Dunc says we should be looking to win every game, especially when we don't have a European campaign to contend with.

[markjazzbassist]

I hate that type of analogy when it is made at this stage of the season because there is absolutely no guarantee of where we will finish. What happens if we get no silverware and 12th? Was it then a bad decision to get dumped out of the cup?

 

Like Dunc says we should be looking to win every game, especially when we don't have a European campaign to contend with.

 

or have lukaku get injured playing at bristol city's shit pitch (could happen) or gana getting his leg snapped like oviedo did in the mud at stevenage (did happen). no thanks. would rather concentrate on the league. we barely have enough players to be good in that league. the manchesters arsenal spurs etc who have massive squads can field second teams for these compeitions and not risk injury but the likes of darren gibson and aaron lennon aren't quality enough for us.

Edited September 21, 2016 by markjazzbassist

[duncanmckenzieismagic]

 

i want us to win sure, in the league primarily and in europe. in fa cup or league cup after that. i'd prefer to win in this order

 

champions league

premier league

europa league

fa cup

league cup

 

i'd rather qualify for europe and play there than play league 1 sides in either of the cups, they've lost their luster and the prize money is garbage compared to Europe.

I would actually agree with that pecking order however we are not in the Champions League or the Europa League, we aren't going to win the Premier League and your not interested in the cups so you may as well pack it all in

 

 

[London Blue]

The Tin Pot Cup is useful for giving squad players match time. If we get through to the latter rounds then take it seriously.

 

I would rather players keep fit for the league, where lets face it clubs are ultimately judged.

 

As I said I would rather it was an under 23 competition to give youth a chance.

[duncanmckenzieismagic]

The Tin Pot Cup is useful for giving squad players match time. If we get through to the latter rounds then take it seriously.

 

I would rather players keep fit for the league, where lets face it clubs are ultimately judged.

 

As I said I would rather it was an under 23 competition to give youth a chance.

There is already the EFL Trophy all be it that's under 21's

 

 

[Gwlad]

Dunc, agree with all your posts on this topic.

[MikeO]

Dunc, agree with all your posts on this topic.

 

Get a room .

[Cornish Steve]

I just cant get my head around people not being bothered about us losing any game of football so its a totally alien conception to me that anybody wouldn't want to win a trophy

 

As in any aspect of life, we can't expect to achieve everything. If my son wants to be a doctor, then he must put aside other smaller ambitions in order to achieve his goal; he can't achieve them all. If you want to win an Olympic gold in cycling, then you must put aside playing football in a pub league that would consume time needed to train in rowing; you can't do them both. It's no different here. We can't pretend that we can win everything. Instead, we must focus on what matters most, and I would suggest that's finishing in the top four. It's worth the most financially, it offers the most financial potential going forward, and it opens the door to better transfer targets. A new stadium, while a huge investment, makes sense if our goal is to be a top four club. It makes little sense if our ambition is to win a Mickey Mouse cup. Nothing must be allowed to get in the way of our main target.

 

On the other hand, if our principal ambition is to win the League Cup, then go all out for it and expect to finish mid-table. Let's be realistic here.

[Cornish Steve]

 

'84 league cup final was a real launching pad .

 

And that was when teams tried to win it!

 

Understand the desire for silverware, particularly from those under forty-five odd with little/no memory of the good days, but I stand by my opinion however much in the minority I am (seems to be a minority of one ).

 

Of two.

[markjazzbassist]

I would actually agree with that pecking order however we are not in the Champions League or the Europa League, we aren't going to win the Premier League and your not interested in the cups so you may as well pack it all in

 

 

 

We're currently 2nd id say we have a better chance of doing well and qualifying for champions league based on current form in the league rather than cup performances. I expect one of the sky 4 to win those since they have massive squads that can rotate.

[duncanmckenzieismagic]

 

As in any aspect of life, we can't expect to achieve everything. If my son wants to be a doctor, then he must put aside other smaller ambitions in order to achieve his goal; he can't achieve them all. If you want to win an Olympic gold in cycling, then you must put aside playing football in a pub league that would consume time needed to train in rowing; you can't do them both. It's no different here. We can't pretend that we can win everything. Instead, we must focus on what matters most, and I would suggest that's finishing in the top four. It's worth the most financially, it offers the most financial potential going forward, and it opens the door to better transfer targets. A new stadium, while a huge investment, makes sense if our goal is to be a top four club. It makes little sense if our ambition is to win a Mickey Mouse cup. Nothing must be allowed to get in the way of our main target.

 

On the other hand, if our principal ambition is to win the League Cup, then go all out for it and expect to finish mid-table. Let's be realistic here.

I could understand that more if we were playing in Europe but we are not.

And whilst I'm not expecting us to win everything I would like to win something. It may have escaped your notice but the club have won fuck all for 21 years

 

I fully agree that we need a new stadium but fail to see the relevance here

 

And who has ever said that the League Cup should be our principal aim?

Edited September 22, 2016 by duncanmckenzieismagic

[Hafnia]

I'll be honest ... I don't like losing games of football. To this day the most I've ever hurt was the 1985 fa cup final with Norman whitesides goal. It was the first time I'd seen Everton lose an important game as a fan. After that the two Merseyside cup final losses stung but it was the 85 that kicked me first. First cut being the deepest.

 

 

I can accept losing games these days.... it's just how. There is no point in saying the loss the other night didn't matter - it did. Should we have won? Yes. Did we play bad? Not really ... just didn't have strength in defence and up front we were fancying round too much.

 

Our manager will learn from it and our players will learn that our manager doesn't like losing.

[marcopaulo]

Isn't the league cup like an extra 4 games now? Hardly alters the course of the seasons fixtures! How can people not be arsed about losing in a cup game..beyond me

[Bill]

I don't think it was the 84 league cup that inspired us to greater things, we were already on the rise, we finished 7th in the league that year, and the year before, besides getting to the final.

Although it was a dour game which we should have won because of a disallowed Alan Hansen penalty, you have to realise that we played a team that was untouchable and winning everything at that time, leagues, league cups, fa cups, and champs league. So there was no disgrace there, as I said we were already on the way.

Edited September 22, 2016 by Bill

[nogs]

The best sides in our league set out to win all three domestic trophies every season. If we don't aspire to do the same, we're selling our history and status as one of the biggest clubs in the country short.

 

Regardless of the status of the competition, we were out fought by a Championship side that was fodder in the Prem last year. Koeman got the changes wrong, Mori, Geri, Lennon and Cleverley let themselves down when they should have been making a case for the league starting XI. It would have been a more useful exercise to start Dowell, Davies, Galloway etc. We now know our squad players are not good enough and cannot keep up the standards that have been set so far this season.

 

Why I get angry with a performance like that is it kills momentum. After a great start, we could easily see three or four more poor showings now. Bournemouth becomes a big game.

 

Finally, there was a lack of attitude and desire in that performance. Norwich wanted it more, they closed down relentlessly and bullied us off the ball while our players were a yard off the pace. I really don't expect to see a repeat from a Koeman side.

[Elston Gunnn]

The best sides in our league set out to win all three domestic trophies every season. If we don't aspire to do the same, we're selling our history and status as one of the biggest clubs in the country short.

Regardless of the status of the competition, we were out fought by a Championship side that was fodder in the Prem last year. Koeman got the changes wrong, Mori, Geri, Lennon and Cleverley let themselves down when they should have been making a case for the league starting XI. It would have been a more useful exercise to start Dowell, Davies, Galloway etc. We now know our squad players are not good enough and cannot keep up the standards that have been set so far this season.

Why I get angry with a performance like that is it kills momentum. After a great start, we could easily see three or four more poor showings now. Bournemouth becomes a big game.

Finally, there was a lack of attitude and desire in that performance. Norwich wanted it more, they closed down relentlessly and bullied us off the ball while our players were a yard off the pace. I really don't expect to see a repeat from a Koeman side.

Several important points here. Most I agree with, maybe a couple of disagreements, or clarifications.

 

1. Outfought - Yes, seems that way. Really unacceptable to be outfought - or out-strategized?? - by a Championship reserve squad. Given the result, hard not to think Norwich wanted it more, and that our missed chances resulted from missing concentration. You just want to scream and cuss. As many of us probably did. A Championship reserve squad......

 

2. Wrong changes by Koeman - Funes Mori at LB seemed bizarre when announced, and foolish in the event. Don't think we can be too critical of Deulofeu as a "change," since he's a sometime-starter anyway, and can play exciting football. If he failed this time, it was his failure, not Koeman's. I expect Deulofeu to be in and out of the starting lineup, and to both impress and disappoint as the season goes on. Cleverley - well, several posted that he had a fine first half, and my impression was the radio guys said he was our best player in first half. Second half, less impressive, apparently. Lennon - I was happy he got the start, but it was a lost opportunity for him, so I assume he won't play much, except if injuries to wingers pile up.

 

3. Galloway out on loan to WBrom.

 

4. Can we actually say, based on this admittedly dismaying result, that our squad players aren't good enough? I wouldn't be appalled to see Funes Mori in at some point for an injured Jagielka or Williams. But no more LB, please. I'm disappointed Koeman didn't play Oviedo at LB, though I realize some on TT don't think he's adequate even as a squad player. Cleverley - he played well enough, if mostly only in first half, that I think he's adequate as a squad player. He can fill in at a couple lf positions with energy, but he won't be consistently excellent anywhere. Lennon - see paragraph 2.

 

5. Momentum - yes, big concern. We'll know at end of Bournemouth match. A loss or dull draw will be dispiriting in the extreme, and will incline us toward blaming the Cup screw-up for screwing us up. A spirited win will incline us toward seeing the Cup as a minor, presumably temporary, blip on our road to top 4.

[MikeO]

I would take winning either of the cups above finishing in the top 4.

It's all about winning trophy's.

 

Getting into the Champions League would make us a far more attractive club when recruiting players and earn us far more money than winning either cup would.

 

I want siverware too and days at Wembley but the modern game is a different beast to what it was when you and I were lads Patto. Certainly the heart wants trophies but the head has to say top four if we seriously want to kick on; it's a shame but it's how it is.

[johnh]

When I used to go to Goodison every home game, from the end of the war to 1951, Everton won nothing. The best they did was semi-final of the FA cup.

Then I read in the Echo that we had won the Liverpool Senior Cup (I think we beat Tranmere Rovers) and it made me feel a hundred feet tall. Still, I was only about 13.

[markjazzbassist]

 

Getting into the Champions League would make us a far more attractive club when recruiting players and earn us far more money than winning either cup would.

 

I want siverware too and days at Wembley but the modern game is a different beast to what it was when you and I were lads Patto. Certainly the heart wants trophies but the head has to say top four if we seriously want to kick on; it's a shame but it's how it is.

 

i'm with you mike, the game has changed, just how it is. Wenger was right when he said getting Champs League every year is like winning a cup, because in the modern game it is.

[duncanmckenzieismagic]

 

Getting into the Champions League would make us a far more attractive club when recruiting players and earn us far more money than winning either cup would.

 

I want siverware too and days at Wembley but the modern game is a different beast to what it was when you and I were lads Patto. Certainly the heart wants trophies but the head has to say top four if we seriously want to kick on; it's a shame but it's how it is.

Getting Champions League I can understand but some on here would prefer to finish 6th than win a cup , that's not even guaranteed to get you into Europe

 

And why couldn't we get top 4 and win a cup, why does it have to be choice between the 2?

 

 

 

[MikeO]

Getting Champions League I can understand but some on here would prefer to finish 6th than win a cup , that's not even guaranteed to get you into Europe

 

And why couldn't we get top 4 and win a cup, why does it have to be choice between the 2?

 

It doesn't, we're talking hypotheticals.

 

I'd love the double obviously but if I had to choose between cup/top four I'd go for top four for the long term future over the instant gratification of cup win. It's a great shame that it's come to that but it's reality, gives me no pleasure to feel that way.

[MikeO]

so we could be in top 4 for next ten years and not win a thing no that's not for me.

 

If we're in the top four for the next ten years we'll have the financial basis and the attractiveness to top players so we will win things.

 

You'd really prefer to finish top ten every year and pick up a league cup or two on the way?

[markjazzbassist]

 

If we're in the top four for the next ten years we'll have the financial basis and the attractiveness to top players so we will win things.

 

You'd really prefer to finish top ten every year and pick up a league cup or two on the way?

 

exactly look at arsenal. attract top talent (ozil sanchez) before winning those FA cups.

[Eric]

As if we have a choice between winning a cup and getting Champions League. We never achieve either.

[Finn balor]

I don't want to sound condescending here but some of the posters on here that think finishing top six instead of 11th and a cup is what they want have never experienced Everton winning a trophy and especially a cup win in a final. These things have been made diluted now due to the premier league and champions league. I'm not having this concentrate on the league bollocks. If these players and we as a club want to be taken seriously we should be playing twice a week most weeks. We could have had a favourable draw to the semis where some big guns will go out but we blew it

[markjazzbassist]

I don't want to sound condescending here but some of the posters on here that think finishing top six instead of 11th and a cup is what they want have never experienced Everton winning a trophy and especially a cup win in a final. These things have been made diluted now due to the premier league and champions league. I'm not having this concentrate on the league bollocks. If these players and we as a club want to be taken seriously we should be playing twice a week most weeks. We could have had a favourable draw to the semis where some big guns will go out but we blew it

 

yes cause all the top players go to swansea after their league cup win with laurdrup. oh wait, no one still gives a shit about them. that victory did nothing for them other then give the team a party and the fans a couple extra hangovers. they got Europe, crashed out never to be there again. Meanwhile Arsenal pre-FA cup victories recently was qualifying for 4th and champs league yearly and was getting top targets due to this.

 

Players want to play in champions league, i've never heard a player say they want to move to a team over playing in a cup. they say they want to go to a CL team all the time.